Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Rigol DS1054Z Advice?

[tautech]

And even though I don't care at all about the WiFi module, I'm interested in it for one reason: the TP-Link adapter model (TL-WN725N) that Siglent charges $70 for is available for $10 or less, and I'm curious if I could get the cheap one to work. I dunno if anybody has tried or not, I haven't looked yet.

Thanks,
Josh

They work for sure ! I got the gold versions very early on and they are the right version. Latest FW indicates additional versions have been added, maybe the bit cheaper silver version but TBH I don't know for sure.

Should you ever want to pop the display onto a wireless device this option is excellent for this. My iPhone 4S is a little too old to work with it but later ones do. It's also great for grabbing screenshots on a remote laptop or tablet where you can then shift them on without even needing a USB stick.

Others have worked around using the USB WiFi dongle by adding a LAN to WiFi module and powering it from the rear USB. Still the WiFi dongle is the neatest solution IMHO. There is however a PSK character # restriction currently that's been bought to Siglents attention so hopefully the next batch of FW will allow for a longer PSK.

[JS]

Only if you plan to use 4 chanels at 100MHz BW signal. If using 2 channels the rigol has 500MSa/s which should be enough for a 100MHz signal, so still useful there but only using 2 channels. While the siglent using 2 channels you can get 1GSa/s, and using only one channel both 1GSa/s.

I went for the Rigol because was waaay cheaper to get for me, I would have to pay twice to get the Signlent, as shipping rates from stores where it was available to ship to me were way higher, like 3 times what I payed for the Rigol shipping. YMMV here, so with a closer price the fight is open. Then there are a few other differences, the bode plotting looks great, probably better with a dedicated signal generator than the optional one for the scope, but still not great as it has many limitations. The ability to add the logic analyzer later is a nice one too, for having a MSO as the time comes, and money and needs agreed on this, but is an expensive option to have a logic analyzer compared to many other out there, and going to the PC as usual as I do I can mix them there (analog and digital) for the time where it's needed)

JS

For my current needs, they're both overkill. The issue is that people keep giving me ideas of how I might use them, and some of them sound reasonable. For me, the difference in price will be about $140 between the two units, and I get free shipping.

In all honesty, being the tech/computer type that I am, it bothers me to pay for an old computer. From that perspective, and for an extra $140 I get a newer computer with 1M FFT, double the multi-channel sampling, built-in web server, 400VDC input, and the POTENTIAL for other crap I probably won't use. I probably won't ever use the logic input, but it's there. I dunno if I'd ever shell out any cash for their AWG addon, but the option is there.

And even though I don't care at all about the WiFi module, I'm interested in it for one reason: the TP-Link adapter model (TL-WN725N) that Siglent charges $70 for is available for $10 or less, and I'm curious if I could get the cheap one to work. I dunno if anybody has tried or not, I haven't looked yet.

Thanks,
Josh

  I see what you say about buying old gear, but note that the ADC/ASIC is not any newer on the siglent, just has two of them.

  1M FFT is nice, I won't go against that, but I process so much data on the PC that that doesn't bother me, I just pick the data from matlab or something like that directly over lan or USB, and then I have a 24M FFT.
  Same thing with the web server, much better than a crappy app that runs only on windows which I don't use, but as I say, I take the data directly from the software I process, not the app, web server or any other way basically.
  The options are all SW+HW, so you need to get both, the TP-link will probably work but you need the SW option to go with it, I don't know if there are walkarounds the options, if there aren't they will eventually. The AWG gen isn't that great, compared to a dedicated AWG and the price difference (those $140 will cover that difference) but the ease of use with a siglent AWG and the signlent scope I belive is not there with the Rigol. Again solved with little work if connected to the network, being a PC guy that shouldn't be so harsh. Also, I can see the use of the optional AWG in the field, if you need to go out with both, the optional AWG fits in a pocket of the scope's bag.

  I think dave said it while looking at the Siglent, is a tight match, it has quite a few extra features but nothing game changing, and the price is a bit higher but not too much to not consider it. It does depends on your needs, your pocket and your future planning, you might be better putting those $140 there or you might be better putting those on some extra gear, for me the difference was twice as much so I didn't even considered twice, after looking for quite a while I couldn't get the Siglent delivered under $700+ or something like that, cheapest shipping was $200 and wasn't the cheapest seller for the scope to start with and got the rigol as listed with $70 shipping. That, on top that I've just finished the university so I'm rigging up the lab completly, I got a 121GW, as a logging DMM that I needed, I need to get some lab PSU and signal generator, a truck of different probes for the scope as I work with audio (low noise, low level signals) and industrial (not so low nothing) plus current probes, etc. so I knew I better saved the bux for the other stuff as well.

JS

[tautech]

<snipped>
a truck of different probes for the scope as I work with audio (low noise, low level signals) and industrial (not so low nothing) plus current probes, etc. so I knew I better saved the bux for the other stuff as well.

So you missed the X-E spec of full BW 500uV/div range and not some multiplication/magnification of 5mV/div ?

Use a 1x probe on sensitive circuits and you'll see why this matters to some.

[JS]

<snipped>
a truck of different probes for the scope as I work with audio (low noise, low level signals) and industrial (not so low nothing) plus current probes, etc. so I knew I better saved the bux for the other stuff as well.

So you missed the X-E spec of full BW 500uV/div range and not some multiplication/magnification of 5mV/div ?

Use a 1x probe on sensitive circuits and you'll see why this matters to some.

I wish I have it, yes, I can't live without it, meh, would I pay $350 for that difference, hell no!

Audio circuits aren't as sensitive for 1M and a few pf load, so X1 probes are fine, even more in the low level signals where impedances are even lower than usual. Then, as all signals lives within reasonable rails and are low bandwidth building a low noise amplifier for those is a breeze. I haven't come across the need quite yet but I know I can, but I have options there.

There are many many differences between the two... Update rate, record mode/segmented memory, CAN/LIN decoders, are some I haven't seen in this thread.

Don't get me wrong, if I could have gotten it for a reasonable prize difference I'd probably had gone for the Siglent, but only then is a tight choice. Now, if the Rigol is already overkill for his needs justifying the extra $$ is hard, even if you have it always can go to a different corner of the lab, as soon as he gets the scope he will see the need for a signal generator, or something else. In my case, I do get a few jobs I need to bring into the lab and there's when it comes to use, when will I need the difference between one and the other I don't know, but at some point I will, I hope I will be able to justify some higher model by that point so I make a bigger jump.

JS

[tautech]

<snipped>
a truck of different probes for the scope as I work with audio (low noise, low level signals) and industrial (not so low nothing) plus current probes, etc. so I knew I better saved the bux for the other stuff as well.

So you missed the X-E spec of full BW 500uV/div range and not some multiplication/magnification of 5mV/div ?

Use a 1x probe on sensitive circuits and you'll see why this matters to some.

I wish I have it, yes, I can't live without it, meh, would I pay $350 for that difference, hell no!

Audio circuits aren't as sensitive for 1M and a few pf load, so X1 probes are fine, even more in the low level signals where impedances are even lower than usual. Then, as all signals lives within reasonable rails and are low bandwidth building a low noise amplifier for those is a breeze. I haven't come across the need quite yet but I know I can, but I have options there.

Good you can see the differences and know if they'll matter to you. 

There are many many differences between the two... Update rate, record mode/segmented memory, CAN/LIN decoders, are some I haven't seen in this thread.

All visible in datasheets. 

Don't get me wrong, if I could have gotten it for a reasonable prize difference I'd probably had gone for the Siglent, but only then is a tight choice. Now, if the Rigol is already overkill for his needs justifying the extra $$ is hard, even if you have it always can go to a different corner of the lab, as soon as he gets the scope he will see the need for a signal generator, or something else. In my case, I do get a few jobs I need to bring into the lab and there's when it comes to use, when will I need the difference between one and the other I don't know, but at some point I will, I hope I will be able to justify some higher model by that point so I make a bigger jump.

JS

Yeah that was the killer for you.......all up price with freight.
Shame your local Siglent guys weren't a bit more competitive.   

[JS]

Good you can see the differences and know if they'll matter to you. 

Yes, I know many people can't get their heads around the scope but I got it quite fast years ago, I was waiting to have my own for long enough, but I've used many at the university, from some old nice tek to some of the cheapest LeCroy out there, seriously crappy, a slug drawing on a big board would beat their response.

Worth to mention I have unlocked the 500uV/div of the Rigol and is only of any use with high averaging, noise chews 2 div in a single capture.

All visible in datasheets. 

Yes, rigol doesn't even mention the 500uV/div anywhere, they can't sell that but I don't know why they don't include it already in the free pack, as I said with some long averaging might let you see something you can't otherwise. Anyway is not nice. Down to 2mV/div seems to do a reasonable job, 1mV is pretty noisy already.

Yeah that was the killer for you.......all up price with freight.
Shame your local Siglent guys weren't a bit more competitive.   

Locally nothing is competitive, I don't even think in buying here. I did ask official local Siglent distributor but they were going out of business at the time and wouldn't even import it for me. But it would likely be more expensive than the expensive option I already had. Local suppliers usually charge over twice as what you see in most listings in any other country.
Quick look, just shy of $1000 for a... Wait for it... Little longer... Getting there! DS1052E

So, my 1054Z at $350 + $70 shipping + $150 custom fees is quite reasonable, but makes me wanna cry... Everithing is like that here, from this to the noodles, go figure. Oh, without a degree you are lucky to get $700 a month in your check.

I'm after a AWG and a LAB PSU now, and of course considering Siglent, if you know a distributor with reasonable international shipments let me know!

JS

[Fungus]

In all honesty, being the tech/computer type that I am, it bothers me to pay for an old computer.

Test gear isn't really comparable to PCs in that regard.

From that perspective, and for an extra $140 I get a newer computer with 1M FFT, double the multi-channel sampling, built-in web server, 400VDC input, and the POTENTIAL for other crap I probably won't use. I probably won't ever use the logic input, but it's there. I dunno if I'd ever shell out any cash for their AWG addon, but the option is there.

It's 40% more expensive, maybe 40% better. If you really can't think of something else for $140 that would ACTUALLY make your life better (ie. today), then, whatever. It's your money.

(Bench power supply, Signal generator, Hakko soldering station, Brymen multimeter...)

PS: As noted earlier: the 400VDC input is a red herring when you use 10x probes and a USB analyzer costs under $10 on eBay (or more than $10 if you want an even better one) - much cheaper than the hundreds of $$ a logic upgrade to an oscilloscope costs.

[tautech]

I'm after a AWG and a LAB PSU now, and of course considering Siglent, if you know a distributor with reasonable international shipments let me know!
JS

Several but it's very bad form to sell into another authorized distributors patch, period.

However there is a worldwide grey market, (parallel imports) and most of it stems from Hong Kong or China and many brands are affected. When a distributors patch is blatantly undermined by these sellers and the manufacturers make no effort to set robust guidelines or hard and fast rules it's no wonder equipment distributors set higher margins to remain profitable against overseas suppliers.
Good luck should you need warranty or specialized support from the Asian mum and dad backstreet shops, just good luck !

[JS]

I'm after a AWG and a LAB PSU now, and of course considering Siglent, if you know a distributor with reasonable international shipments let me know!
JS

Several but it's very bad form to sell into another authorized distributors patch, period.

However there is a worldwide grey market, (parallel imports) and most of it stems from Hong Kong or China and many brands are affected. When a distributors patch is blatantly undermined by these sellers and the manufacturers make no effort to set robust guidelines or hard and fast rules it's no wonder equipment distributors set higher margins to remain profitable against overseas suppliers.
Good luck should you need warranty or specialized support from the Asian mum and dad backstreet shops, just good luck !

I wish I never get there. In this case there is no autorized siglent distributor here anymore, I think still appears in the siglent web but they went out of business months ago. Even if I bought it here good luck to get support from them! Here support sucks in everyway, so I don't really trust local distributors to make any kind of useful support, let alone fast or reasonable, still would likely need to pay a pretty penny for shipment and what not. Then, getting it from overseas I could get two for the price of one locally, if I can get it here, which leaves some margin for the risk to worth it.

The problem here is not high margins but taxes, with 50% import fee, 21% iva (vat?) plus a few smaller extra and taxes applied on taxes, with a reasonable margin the price is still pretty expensive. With all that I've bassically given up designing any product as producing them here even as prototypes would cost that much more than anywhere else, not to mention waiting 2 month for anything from a resistor to a super specialized part, wrong place to be a EE designer I guess, so I settle for mainly industrial work but still need a few tools to debug and fix some gear which would take too long to get replacements for.

JS

[tautech]

According to the Siglent 'How to Buy' page you have two Argentina distributors:
http://www.siglent.com/ENs/lxwms.aspx?id=616

Which one is isn't active anymore ?

[rf-loop]

and a USB analyzer costs under $10 on eBay (or more than $10 if you want an even better one) - much cheaper than the hundreds of $$ a logic upgrade to an oscilloscope costs.

USB "analyzer" (what analyzer) is not oscilloscope at all. How you analyze signal waveform with these kind of USB "analyzers". They show only decode result or just binary state from signal but you do not see this signal itself at all. Oh you can use external scope for this but where is then time synchronization between scope screen signal and computer screen decode result or 1-0 states.


MSO is just for look digital AND analog signal together with tight time synchronization if use digital channels for decode some serial communication or some other bus. If do not use digital inputs for decode then use analog channels for decode and you have decode and decoded signals analog waveform between signals with tight time synchronization on the screen.  Cheap USB "box" can not do this at all. 
If only need decode, both scopes have free serial decoder and in this Siglent have bit more than this Rigol.
But then, if need MSO functions what means integrated scope and LA then these cheap USB decoders are not these at all)

So if example later user find that he need  MSO with 4 analog channels and 16 digital channels what can use all fully together simultaneously he do not need buy new scope if he have SDS1104X-E.

But if he have DS1054Z or 1104Z then this is just impossible. Only way is buy whole new MSO scope and there come Rigol MSO1104Z. But again, it is mostly same as DS1000Z models with all its goods and bads.

Example fact that it can not do simultaneously 16 digital + 4 analog. You need drop off more or less analog channels if you use digital channels. If want 16 digital then only 2 analog channels can use. Siglent is different. Fun - is it.

This is fun to say that Siglent need buy expensive extra options...  if user need options yes, but then also compare to other brands need do fair way.  Even if you buy R. MSO1104Z (in europe consumer price typically 950 eur)  do not get even nearly same as with SDS1104X-E + MSO-LA option what european consumer price is around 965 euro).

Some ask why Siglent MSO-LA option cost hundreds.
But when we go to Rigol, why not ask why MSO model price is hundreds more than same without MSO. Fun - is it.

Oh well, and then some may tell that 50MHz Rigol can hack to 100MHz model. Well, at this time yes.
But, at same time Siglent 100MHz model can hack afaik 200MHz model. So

And prices. 40% cheaper?? Yes it depends...

Consumer prices, well known very reputable and trusted "spitzenklasse" Batronix:
DS1054Z. 403 eur 
Siglent SDS1104X-E.  510 eur.
-----------------

But then. All what is important is what meets user needs!

And here, imho, even DS1054Z is more than OP need if need is all what we can see here.

For audioit is true that many sound cards and PC software can do lot of better work than 8 bit ADC oscilloscope with what ever memory length. Even normal "crap" sound card what every computer have (more or less crap) can do better, and if want or need better or lot of better  then need - money or lot of more money.
I recommend first test with just this sound card what is in home already and some free software and if never have seen what these can do without any investment - it may be astonishing.

[nctnico]

I'm after a AWG and a LAB PSU now, and of course considering Siglent, if you know a distributor with reasonable international shipments let me know!
JS

Several but it's very bad form to sell into another authorized distributors patch, period.

Good luck should you need warranty or specialized support from the Asian mum and dad backstreet shops, just good luck !

In my experience a local distributor can be unhelpful as well. It is a bit of a hit & miss and you don't know until it is too late. Usually I use google with the company name and the world 'problem' to see if a shop is any good or not before buying. Last year I bought something from Italy instead of the local NL distributor because the NL distributor seemes to have very bad customer services (sell broken / DOA items and then let customers wait weeks or months for repairs).

[KungFuJosh]

In all honesty, being the tech/computer type that I am, it bothers me to pay for an old computer.

Test gear isn't really comparable to PCs in that regard.

In most cases I would agree. However, IMO most DSOs are really limited/mediocre computers with BNC terminals on them. Ooooh, this one has an 800x480 screen on it, wow! It's kind of pathetic really.

It's 40% more expensive, maybe 40% better. If you really can't think of something else for $140 that would ACTUALLY make your life better (ie. today), then, whatever. It's your money.

(Bench power supply, Signal generator, Hakko soldering station, Brymen multimeter...)

I have everything I need otherwise. I have a Tenma 72-505 audio generator that does any signal generating I really need. I have an Amprobe 37XR-A meter that covers my uses (obviously among other DMMs lol). I'm not a big fan of Hakko though, I think they're overpriced. I have an Aoyue 2703A+ that's excellent for my needs. Bench supply and isolation transformers are also covered. I have no need for another meter, but I would still buy a 121GW for the hell of it/sheer curiosity...I mean to support the blog.

I get that perspective, but I don't think of it like "what else can I spend $140 on now." I think of it more along the "buy cheap, buy twice" proverb. Yes, the Rigol is $140 cheaper right now, and covers my needs right now, but will it end up costing me more next year when I realize I needed more out of the scope? Of course, I could be kidding myself to get a shinier toy. I am aware of that possibility. 

Thanks,
Josh

[Fungus]

USB "analyzer" (what analyzer) is not oscilloscope at all. How you analyze signal waveform with these kind of USB "analyzers".

You use your oscolloscope!

MSO is just for look digital AND analog signal together with tight time synchronization

All true, but:
a) It's really just a convenience, not a necessity.
b) It's a really expensive convenience ($300+ for the add-on - nearly as much as a Rigol!)
c) A USB logic analyzer is much better for recording long data sequences and analyzing them than a tiny-screen knobs-and dials device.

[Fungus]

I get that perspective, but I don't think of it like "what else can I spend $140 on now." I think of it more along the "buy cheap, buy twice" proverb. Yes, the Rigol is $140 cheaper right now, and covers my needs right now, but will it end up costing me more next year when I realize I needed more out of the scope? Of course, I could be kidding myself to get a shinier toy. I am aware of that possibility. 

As a car analogy: It's more like ticking the "leather" option box on a Ford Fiesta. It makes the car a nicer, yes, but ... your daily commute and weekly shop will be about the same in real terms.

That said: If you like leather seats and have the money then go ahead and tick it. The next step up (eg. Ford Focus) is a big step so you might as well get some options for your Fiesta.

Just realize you're not upgrading to a huge SUV (or Mercedes Benz, depending on taste) when you tick the "Siglent" box. 

[wpwrak]

Which one is isn't active anymore ?

Temtec seem to be gone. They used to be in the city, had a fairly comprehensive catalog, and could also get things that weren't in the catalog. Now they're somewhere out in the woods and sell what looks like leftover stock of exotic parts. Ah, scratch that. Now their domain has expired, too.

I asked Electro Tools for a quote a few months ago, and the price they gave me was roughly what it would cost to import (with taxes, customs fees, etc.) two scopes on my own. So I did (just getting one, though).

[KungFuJosh]

As a car analogy: It's more like ticking the "leather" option box on a Ford Fiesta. It makes the car a nicer, yes, but ... your daily commute and weekly shop will be about the same in real terms.

That said: If you like leather seats and have the money then go ahead and tick it. The next step up (eg. Ford Focus) is a big step so you might as well get some options for your Fiesta.

Just realize you're not upgrading to a huge SUV (or Mercedes Benz, depending on taste) when you tick the "Siglent" box. 

I hear all that except I don't care for Ford at all.

Okay. So here's the question then: what would you consider the proper next step up if I want something actually better? Keeping in mind that higher bandwidth means little to nothing for my use.

Thanks,
Josh

[Fungus]

Okay. So here's the question then: what would you consider the proper next step up if I want something actually better? Keeping in mind that higher bandwidth means little to nothing for my use.

If you want four channels it gets expensive real fast.

If you want two analog + one digital channel, there's this:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-976-keysight-1000-x-series-oscilloscope-teardown/

[nctnico]

Okay. So here's the question then: what would you consider the proper next step up if I want something actually better? Keeping in mind that higher bandwidth means little to nothing for my use.

GW Instek MSO2000 series or the R&S RTB2000 series. Personally I wouldn't buy any of Keysight's current oscilloscope offerings because the memory is too small. You'd think 4Mpts ought to be enough but that 4Mpts is shared so you are left with 500kpts with the digital channels on.

[Fungus]

GW Instek MSO2000 series or the R&S RTB2000 series.

R&S make really nice oscilloscopes.

[nctnico]

GW Instek MSO2000 series or the R&S RTB2000 series.

R&S make really nice oscilloscopes.

Yes and no. The big touch screen on the R&S RTB2000 is nice to use but the GW Instek MSO2000 can do filtering and math on the actual data where the RTB2000 uses decimated data. Also the FFT on the GW Instek is 1Mpts versus 128k. It is very hard to justify the extra costs of the R&S RTB2000 versus the GW Instek MSO2000 from a functional perspective.

[KungFuJosh]

GW Instek MSO2000 series or the R&S RTB2000 series. Personally I wouldn't buy any of Keysight's current oscilloscope offerings because the memory is too small. You'd think 4Mpts ought to be enough but that 4Mpts is shared so you are left with 500kpts with the digital channels on.

I agree, I wasn't impressed with the Keysight specs, especially for the price. But I'm also not a fan of Instek's footprint, though they are quite competitive on paper.

I would love to have an RTB2004, but you're killing me here. I don't need a $2000 scope (as pretty as it is - I want it just for the aesthetic, it would look amazing on my bench ). The $300 to $500 range is overkill for my needs, any of these $2000 scopes are well beyond any perceivable ROI for me. A $500 scope pays for itself. A $2000 scope that doesn't do anything better for me just costs me an extra $1500.

Thanks,
Josh

[Fungus]

the FFT on the GW Instek is 1Mpts versus 128k.

Yes, but the R&S is 10bit so it'll be better.

Long buffers are used to compensate for lack of bits. 

[Fungus]

I don't need a $2000 scope

You didn't need the Siglent, either. 

Yes, the Rigol is $140 cheaper right now, and covers my needs right now...  I could be kidding myself to get a shinier toy. I am aware of that possibility.

[KungFuJosh]

I don't need a $2000 scope

You don't need the Siglent, either. 

Yes, the Rigol is $140 cheaper right now, and covers my needs right now...  I could be kidding myself to get a shinier toy. I am aware of that possibility.

Haha, that's true. But I do like the idea of it. More than that I like the idea of not being limited by the DS1054Z. If I ever need more, I have to replace the Rigol. With the Siglent, I might not need to add to it, but if I want to, I can.