Siglent SDS1104X-E vs. Micsig STO1004 Plus

[balnazzar]

Hi Folks. First time I post here on EEVblog forum.

I'm a beginner. A few weeks ago I bought a Hantek DSO2D15, and I'm not satisfied with it. Very limited signal generator, some bugs, and crappy software, so I'll return it.

I made peace with the fact that one cannot have a good scope with integrated signal generator for cheapo, so, as of today, I narrowed my choices to the models above.

I'm not considering the Siglent U-type since it has too many limitations for just 120 less (less effective FFT, no bode plots, no web browser control, no possibility to unlock it to get WiFi, only 1 mem module, limited 4-ch bandwidth).

The Micsig seems to be a good scope (twice the memory depth of the siglent), integrated wifi, ability to run on battery (a very nice thing to have). OTOH, these fiddly joistick controls that IDK how much will last, a very reflective screen (but you can use it with a computer monitor at home). If you can mention other negatives, please do.

OR, I can open the wallet and go for the rigol MSO5000 (the black series). But I don't know if it's worth the money.

What do you think?

[Fungus]

Micsigs come with matte screen protectors that really work well. I hate shiny screens but I'm completely happy with my Micsig. The trick to putting on big screen protectors is to put masking tape under the corners so you can lift up up and put it back again without picking at it with your fingernails. Got a grain of dust? Lift it up and grab it with another bit of masking tape. Repeat as many times as needed. Remove the tape from the corners when it's perfect. Never pick at the corners with your fingernails.

There's no reason the joysticks will break if you use them nicely but Micsigs can be used without any buttons at all, no problem. The buttons are just a convenience.

The only real negative of the Micsig is that it doesn't have much in the way of advanced functions. It's basic,  but a joy to use because of the touch screen. Everything is very fast and well thought out. If you're planning on doing bode plots though? It's not for you.

The MSO5000 has been argued to death in other threads. The main problem is it's a bit noisy. Whether this affects you depends 100% on what you're going to use it for, if you're looking at signals than can fill the screen vertically then it's not really a problem. It's a killer 'scope in that price range, the only alternative is to spend move money.

[tautech]

Hi Folks. First time I post here on EEVblog forum.

I'm a beginner............

Welcome to the forum.

Yet your assessment of another product demonstrates you have some understanding of what you're looking for.
SDS1104X-E can do a lot and in such a small form factor has a lot of capability which makes it a great choice to grow into if you can manage the outlay. However for Bode plot you will need a signal source and any of the standalone Siglent AWG's with easily pair with the X-E for the X-E Bode plot to take charge of it.
This add a significant cost as a popular pairing is SDG1032X however they add another $ 360 to setup costs whereas the SAG1021I AWG module for $ 165 and FG licensing at $ 115 further lowers the Bode plot entry cost.

Even this is a significant outlay for the average beginner without looking at next level models like SDS2104X Plus with their inbuilt 50 MHz AWG and at $ 1400 is more than the hobbyist wants to invest unless they say to themselves buy right, buy once.
You'd be a very busy boy to ever outgrow it. 

[balnazzar]

is to put masking tape under the corners so you can

As simple as it is, I never thought of it. Thanks, that will come useful many times in the future

The only real negative of the Micsig is that it doesn't have much in the way of advanced functions. It's basic,  but a joy to use because of the touch screen. Everything is very fast and well thought out. If you're planning on doing bode plots though? It's not for you.

The absence of bode plots could be addressed by acquiring the signals on the PC, I think.. Any other negatives that come to your mind?

The MSO5000 has been argued to death in other threads. The main problem is it's a bit noisy. Whether this affects you depends 100% on what you're going to use it for, if you're looking at signals than can fill the screen vertically then it's not really a problem. It's a killer 'scope in that price range, the only alternative is to spend move money.

The dream would be its Siglent counterpart. But I can't really justify spending 1500 euros over a scope.
I'm torn. Consider that as of today, the MSO5000 comes with all the additions & perks for free, whereas if I buy the Micsig I have to allocate additional 200 eur (minimum) for a decent signal generator. This will raise the price of the whole package (micsig + gen) to 830 eur. The MSO5000 costs 950, all the stuff included.

[balnazzar]

This add a significant cost as a popular pairing is SDG1032X however they add another $ 360 to setup costs whereas the SAG1021I AWG module for $ 165 and FG licensing at $ 115 further lowers the Bode plot entry cost.

Even this is a significant outlay for the average beginner without looking at next level models like SDS2104X Plus with their inbuilt 50 MHz AWG and at $ 1400 is more than the hobbyist wants to invest unless they say to themselves buy right, buy once.
You'd be a very busy boy to ever outgrow it. 

If I may, this is the problem with Siglent. They make well-thought products, IMHO better than their Rigol counterparts. But then, they cost 50% more on average. At these price points, one starts to consider western alternatives.
Please press Eric (Siglent CEO) to lower the price of their SDS2104X Plus to 1 grand, all included! 
In that convenient way, they'll prevent our wallets from being demolished AND they'll vanquish the competition.

P.S.: I know Siglent scopes a bit. There are a lot of SDS5054X scopes at the university, and I used them during two courses.

[tautech]

P.S.: I know Siglent scopes a bit. There are a lot of SDS5054X scopes at the university, and I used them during two courses.

Very nice DSO's and especially now with the latest firmware the 3 memory modes which have been added from the SDS6000A series. You can see these modes in the Acquire menu here which is identical to SDS5000X:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds6000-pro-10-and-12-bit-dso-coming/msg4030696/#msg4030696

SDS2000X Plus have an almost identical UI to that you are used to in SDS5054X.
Nice scope and we recently sold ours to a customer after our new SDS6204A arrived.

[Martin72]

At these price points, one starts to consider western alternatives.

Ehhh....
There are no western alternatives.
I don´t know the prices in italy, but you won´t get any tek, lecroy, keysight for 500€ a 1104X-E costs or for 1400€ a 2104X+ costs.
(and when they never reach the 2104X+)
Note: All "cheapos" lecroy offer are siglents..
My first touch with cheap scopes was one from uni-t, a 40Mhz model 2channel...
After this I´ve got rigol ds1000z, siglent 1104X-E, rigol mso5000, siglent 2104X+ and actually siglent 2000x hd.
Comparing to the rigols, the siglents are the more "seriously" alternative, didn´t got all the fancy stuff the rigols have, but what they got works fine.
When you have to decide between ds1000z and 1104x-e, go for the last.
When you can spend max. around 1000€ go for the mso5000.
When you can be a little more patient and save your money go for the 2104X+, as it still is the best offer on the market.
Don´t hope for getting a new one fully armed for 1000, it will never come true.

In 2008, we (company I work for) bought a couple of lecroy´s cheapest scopes at this time.
It was the WaveJet series, very very rudimentary stuff - And they cost 4000€ each.....

We hobbyists are actually living in happy times what affordable AND useable scopes concerns.
But there is a invisible price limit, under this line you can forget to get a good scope.

[Fungus]

The absence of bode plots could be addressed by acquiring the signals on the PC, I think..

I don't think it could be easily automated.

Any other negatives that come to your mind?

Nope. Micsigs get a thumbs up from me. 

What frequency range do you need for your Bode plots? In the "audio" range you can do it with a PC sound card and free software.

[balnazzar]

Ehhh....
There are no western alternatives.
I don´t know the prices in italy, but you won´t get any tek, lecroy, keysight for 500€ a 1104X-E costs or for 1400€ a 2104X+ costs.
(and when they never reach the 2104X+)
Note: All "cheapos" lecroy offer are siglents..

I investigated, it's exactly as you say. Sob! 

I was thinking about the Keysight 4-channels "G" scope (1500 eur), but I just discovered it's very limited with respect to the Siglent, and even w.r.t. the MSO5000...

I'm quite interested in hearing about you experience with the MSO5000, if you have time to tell about it.

I'm thinking of getting it right now, OR buying a very different product (an analog discovery 2.. I don't need bandwidth for now) and then save and get the 2104X+ in 9-12 months...

About the MSO5000, apart from being "a bit noisy", I don't like the cheap capacitors Dave highlighted in his review, the quite reflective screen, the unfiltered vents (the fan will take in dust and grime quite easily). I don't know, it seems to be a device not really engineered to last in time.

 

[balnazzar]

What frequency range do you need for your Bode plots? In the "audio" range you can do it with a PC sound card and free software.

For now, the audio range kind of should be sufficient.. Tomorrow, I think I'll need more...

An alternative to >1000 scopes I'm considering is the Analog discovery 2 *and* a Micsig... I should be able to buy both for ~1000.

[Fungus]

I'm thinking of getting it right now, OR buying a very different product (an analog discovery 2.. I don't need bandwidth for now) and then save and get the 2104X+ in 9-12 months...

If you don't need bandwidth you can use the AD2 software with a sound card for free.

PS: I'm thinking of selling my AD2. PM me if you're interested...

[Martin72]

I was thinking about the Keysight 4-channels "G" scope (1500 eur), but I just discovered it's very limited with respect to the Siglent, and even w.r.t. the MSO5000...

That´s no surprise, you pay for the name, in this case not negative meant.

I'm quite interested in hearing about you experience with the MSO5000, if you have time to tell about it.

As the mso5000 was launched, it was a blast.
Large memory, 9" touchscreen, 8GSa/s max (still unbeaten), 4 mathchannels, 2-ch AWG with modulation, tons of trigger functions, lots of math funtions, lots of measure functions, power analyzer, zone trigger, hdmi output, and so on, and so on...
Still you won´t get these all for this price from another one.
And so I was very happy with it for about a year.
But inbetween this year of owning, several things came up I didn´t like.
How did they put all the features into a unit for such less money in comparison...
Because they use cheap parts.
Fan was noisy, Display was a little bit dim, both were corrected but it´s still not the best.
Touchresponse is a little bit laggy, UI/menu is somekind confusing, style in general is "mickey mouse" like.
But all this won´t worry me.
What turns the nail in the coffin was the "policy" of launching firmware updates and the very final nail was the noisy frontend as I wanted to make ripple measures on a linear psu.
Was not confindent with the results, asked the support if it could get better when buying the much more expensive 7000.
And as the answer came, the frontends are the same this was it.
In the same time the sds2000x+ was presented here.
First I was very sceptical....Only 2GSa/s, no video output, no 2-ch awg, only 2 mathchannels...
But I saw the pics, saw the structured panel and was totally electrified as I saw the UI.
Looks familar to the modern lecroy scopes....should I give it a try?
I did and never regret it - Until now.
It costs "only" appx 400 bucks more and it´s more than a class above.
Very noiseless frontend, 50 ohms inputs, probesense, bodeplot, "mighty" fft, 10" screen, clear and bright, touch ist unlike more responsible, clear structured UI/menu style...
Good firmware support, not only fixing bugs, giving benefits and more features..
After having it for 2 yrs private, I´ve ordered 3pcs for the company I´m working, because I´m totally convinced about the sds2k+.
Still i like the mso5000 and I never get tired about to tell how good it is for it´s price.
But if you can spend appx 400 bucks more there is, in my opinion, no alternative to the sds2k+.
When we´re always talking about new scopes.

I don't like the cheap capacitors Dave highlighted in his review.

Well, the cap thing....hmmmmm...