Siglent SDG2000X NEW Arbitary Generator

[Wuerstchenhund]

I also paid a lot less than $3k for my (like new) Agilent 33522B (which came with almost all options) and including a 3yrs repair agreement (i.e. like a warranty). Plus three or so years down the line chances are good that it will still be worth a considerable amount of money.

Dunno what you pay for it but it does not matter

It somewhat does, because the real price is a large part of the value proposition.

the normal street price for a new Agilent 33522B is well over 3000 USD, SIX times the SDG2042X ... LULZ !

True, but then on ebay they sell closer to $2k:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=33522B&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684

Most of them also come with some/many/all of the options.

PC software apart there is no way to justify such difference, especially looking on specs.

It certainly depends on what you do, and yes, for me the better software alone justifies a large part of the premium. The rest is for the large 16MB sample memory per channel, the I/Q Baseband player (not even available for the Siglent), PRBS generator (also not available for the Siglent) and the included GPIB interface (in addition to LAN and USB).

As to the specs, yes, the SDG2000X looks better, but like many B-brand kit not everything is so great if you dig deeper. For example, the 33522B only has a max sample rate of 250MSa/s which is a lot lower than the (oversampled) 1.2GSa/s the SDG2000X offers, but at least the Keysight maintains the sample rate in all modes, including Arbitrary mode (where according to the spec sheet the Siglent drops down to 75MSa/s unless you use plain DDS mode).

The truth is that if it was not for active chinese brand like Rigol and Siglent we'll still be here paying something like 3000 USD for a crappy Tek / Agilent 40Mhz 20kpt scope or 5 Mhz 200Ms/s arb. generators.

Probably, and there's no doubt that the Chinese B-brands have put a lot of pressure on the entry level market, which is great of course (something like the Rigol DS1054z wouldn't be possible otherwise).

But the other truth is that the bottom end is the only sector the B-brand stuff is really attractive, and that vanes quickly the higher you climb the ladder.

The game of easy profit in this sector is over, no more shameful multiplicative cost factor for china made equipment.

For the cost of your Agilent 33522B a hobbyist / prosumer / small factory can buy a full lab test equipment set, including 4 channel MSO, arb. generator, spectrum analyzer, desktop power supply, DMM, soldering station, always thank to Rigol & Siglent.

Probably, but I've seen first hand what Rigol and Siglent deliver in the entry level scope and AWG segment, and quite frankly it's pretty much only good when you take into account the low price for that gear. Some kit is also borderline useless, like the crap SDS2000 scope thanks to Siglent's ineptitude to write proper software for it. Shiny specs mean little if the instrument is buggy and produces unreliable results.

In contrast a big brand lab will consider your Agilent 33522B a backup instrument, at best.

Yeah, sure    No seriously, what a stupid comment. Like any instrument, the 33522Bs are regularly used in various areas where using an AWG of that spec is appropriate. One of the labs I work in uses a few hundreds in ATEs, and the only 'backup' is a second 33522B so that if one fails it can be swapped quickly.

Needless to say that mentioning Siglent or Rigol in such environments only earns you laughter (best case) or you're kicked out of the door (more likely).

I sit in front of a brand new SDG2042X, works like a charm a for the price is a steal, no matter what.

As I said, fair enough, if the device suits your needs then great.

But at the end of the day there's a reason why Keysight still sells a lot of 33522Bs and other expensive kit, despite the Chinese B-brands, and will most certainly continue to do so. It's probably very hard to understand for a hobbyist who often has enough time and doesn't have to rely on its kit (and for them using B-brand kit is certainly fine and a good way to get some half-decent kit at low costs) but once you have to rely on your test equipment or use it to earn some money then B-brands become more a liability than an advantage.

The old saying "you get what you pay for" still holds true for test equipment.

[nctnico]

IMHO Siglent does pretty OK with their signal generators but they should as it seems those are their first pieces of equipment they put on the market. The Siglent SDG1010 waveform generator I bought a couple of years ago serves me well as a function generator. I never bothered to use the PC software though and doubt the AWG functionality of the SDG1000 is usefull due to the short memory.
Besides that if you need arbitrary waveforms you really need a decent software package to create waveforms otherwise an AWG is utterly useless. I used to own a Lecroy LW420 AWG but decided to sell it again because creating waveforms was way too tedious for my taste.

[alank2]

The SDG2042X is a diamond in the rough.  For $499 how can you go wrong?  What else is even in its same ball park for capability at this price.  Definitely one of my favorite latests toys to have on the bench.

[Wuerstchenhund]

IMHO Siglent does pretty OK with their signal generators but they should as it seems those are their first pieces of equipment they put on the market.

Not sure this is true as Siglent started with scopes, and their first scope came out almost 15 years ago.

The Siglent SDG1010 waveform generator I bought a couple of years ago serves me well as a function generator. I never bothered to use the PC software though and doubt the AWG functionality of the SDG1000 is usefull due to the short memory.

I had a SDG1020 once, and aside from the hardware problem which caused excessive jitter in square wave mode it was a decent function generator considering its price. As you said as AWG is was pretty useless.

Besides that if you need arbitrary waveforms you really need a decent software package to create waveforms otherwise an AWG is utterly useless.

That is certainly true, and makes the fact that even the new SDG2000X comes with the abomination that is EasyWave even less understandable.

I used to own a Lecroy LW420 AWG but decided to sell it again because creating waveforms was way too tedious for my taste.

Well, the LW420 is from the very early '90s so it's pretty ancient, and back then creating a decent waveform editor would have been a lot more difficult due to the limitations in computer performance and software. Having said that, you don't know what's pain until you tried manually entering a waveform in a Rigol DG1000z via its front panel 

[markone]

But at the end of the day there's a reason why Keysight still sells a lot of 33522Bs and other expensive kit, despite the Chinese B-brands, and will most certainly continue to do so. It's probably very hard to understand for a hobbyist who often has enough time and doesn't have to rely on its kit (and for them using B-brand kit is certainly fine and a good way to get some half-decent kit at low costs) but once you have to rely on your test equipment or use it to earn some money then B-brands become more a liability than an advantage.

The old saying "you get what you pay for" still holds true for test equipment.

It's sure very hard for you to understand that is useless to report USED test equipments price, unless your client buys its hundreds on ebay gray market for its critical task ATE 

For the rest I have thirty years of experience in the field and they are enough to understand that  you're here doing pointless comparisons between objects belonging to different market segments, discrediting Siglent (and Rigol) beyond any justification, showing an attitude typical for sales representatives.

The only plausible explanation is that you are involved in the A-brand sale and the chinese B-brand pressure is becoming a problem.

[Wuerstchenhund]

It's sure very hard for you to understand that is useless to report USED test equipments price, unless your client buys its hundreds on ebay gray market for its critical task ATE 

Not sure what your pointless ramble is about. For hobbyists (which is the market Siglent and Rigol are primarily targetting) buying 2nd hand has long been a viable alternative, and it still is.

For the rest I have thirty years of experience in the field

Yeah, whatever  Your "experience" has obviously not prevented you from not understanding that you don't have to buy large quantities to get a good deal on the 2nd hand market.

and they are enough to understand that  you're here doing pointless comparisons between objects belonging to different market segments, discrediting Siglent (and Rigol) beyond any justification, showing an attitude typical for sales representatives.

Well, you're pretty much showing all signs of rabid fanboi-ism. All I did was mentioning that I was pretty fed up with the quirks of the various B-brand kit I had and therefore went back to the big brands. I also explained the reasons for my dissatisfaction. For some reason that seems to have triggered some of your nerves.

I said it before and I say it again, if you're happy with your Siglent kit then fine, there's nothing wrong with that. The fact that I wasn't satisfied with Siglent gear certainly doesn't invalidate your enjoyment of your kit, however just because you are obviously incapable to see beyond your own preferences and requirements my reasons for being dissatisfied with Siglent don't become any less valid.

I posted this as a warning because people tend to get carried away by shiny boilerplate specs, and there's a lot more to a good instrument than just the spec sheet. It's also a reminder that the 2nd hand market can still be a viable option.

The only plausible explanation is that you are involved in the A-brand sale and the chinese B-brand pressure is becoming a problem.

Almost but not quite. A big part of my job is *buying* test gear (a lot, actually), I'm on the buyer's side so pretty much on the opposite side of the big brands. That's why I know the T&M market (brand new as well as 2nd hand) very well, as I do know the various price gouging tactics employed by the big brands. And I can tell you that you're vastly overestimating the impact the cheap B-brands have on the big brands.

[nctnico]

IMHO Markone has a point when comparing new versus second hand prices. That is like comparing apples and oranges because second hand gear's availability isn't guaranteed.

[Wuerstchenhund]

IMHO Markone has a point when comparing new versus second hand prices. That is like comparing apples and oranges because second hand gear's availability isn't guaranteed.

That's true of course, but then the same can be often said for new equipment as well (just look at how long it often takes between when Siglent announces a new product and when it's finally available, or how long people had to wait at the beginning for a DS1054z becoming available because for some period it was constantly sold out pretty much everywhere).

And I'd guess is that immediate availability isn't necessarily a top concern for many hobbyists, which is pretty much the target audience for that kind of gear.

[markone]

For the rest I have thirty years of experience in the field

Yeah, whatever  Your "experience" has obviously not prevented you from not understanding that you don't have to buy large quantities to get a good deal on the 2nd hand market.

Crap this, crap that ...  everything is crap, except of course the cream of cream that you buy.

Will follow a brief summary of abstracts from your constructive contribution to this 3ad :

"And it looks like their waveform editor (EasyWave) is the same crap as for their other AWGs."
"Plus, I'd expect a truck load of firmware bugs when this thing comes out, as it has been typical for Siglent."
"and even more so with the crap software Siglent (and Rigol) provides for their AWGs."
"like the crap SDS2000 scope thanks to Siglent's ineptitude to write proper software for it"

[rich]

wow, this thread came back from the dead and escalated quickly. 'crap' is never definitive, treat it as a personal review of how feature, X, satisfies a single reviewer's needs.
 
The only valid comparisons are with the variables that matter to your own purchase, when you make it; everything else are generalisations. Nobody is saying the Siglent isn't good value for money it's just that people value price, availability, confidence, features, bugs, support, warranties, new/used,... differently. Heck, even equipment that you may already own influences the 'right' choice when making a purchase.

I just watched Dave's latest teardown of the new entry level R & S and thought that it has parallels to this price vs quality discussion. His excitement about quality (design, build and UI) and attention to detail epitomises most engineers' inherent appreciation of quality test equipment when they use it. Yes, he also acknowledges the price difference to Rigol.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-842-rohde-schwarz-hmo1202-oscilloscope-teardown/

Disclaimer: I hate crappy user interfaces with a passion but I tolerate my Rigol (DS2072) because it's not totally abhorrent and I had budget constraints. I suspect I will be making similar trade-offs with AWG and end up with a Siglent (perhaps even a used 1020)!

Sorry for the long post, it was Dave's enthusiasm for the R & S which reminded me why we like to own the Agisight kit even if some budgets can only justify the Riglents in the end.

[Electro Fan]

Beauty is sometimes in the eye of the beholder.

Without a doubt a Function Generator is a very useful piece of equipment - probably belongs in the first tier with a couple DMMs, a power supply, and an oscilloscope, or shortly thereafter.

I started with a BK Precision 4040A about 12 years ago and it has coh ntinued to be a very good unit.  About a year ago I became enamored with the idea of creating Arbs.  Being a Rigol fan I looked at their Arb Gens very closely but after trying their PC software and the PC software of Siglent and others I went off the deep end and bought an Agilent 33522B.  It is an excellent unit and the PC software is much better than the Rigol and Siglent software.  In addition to the PC software the operations available on the front panel functions are top notch - you can do a lot with the 33522B.  So - those are some considerations on the upside for the 33522B.

On the other side of the coin, the 33522B has a front panel interface that isn't quirky but might be a tad short of highly intuitive (the functionality is strong but the UI is just a bit "different" in terms of button pushes and menu layers, etc.).  It's probably just a matter of getting used to it but I'm betting over time Keysight will evolve the UI; I don't think they have hit a "classic" UI with the 33522B just yet.  Their remote PC software is very functional when you get into it but it's again good rather than "classic" status.  And beyond the UI the PC software plays in a sort of clumsy manner with Java sometimes, and the support team at Agilent/Keysight while very good is probably (definitely) stronger with test equipment than software.

So, I'd give the 33522B an A- overall but if you factor in the price it's hard to give it more than a B+.  Based on what I've seen (just from reading on the web) the new Siglent SDG2000X series might not meet or beat the 33522B on functionality across the board - especially if you need good PC-based software - but if you are going to be primarily operating the unit from the front panel then the price difference would seem to make the Siglent SDG2000X Arb Gens a no brainer.  Between the bandwidth, features, and price the SDG2000X looks like a great choice.  The only reservation I would have is if I was planning on building lots of arbs with the manufacturer supplied software.

Just some thoughts....YMMV.  EF

[rich]

Thanks EF, very informative review and comparison. I'm not setting any expectations for the PC software, just so long as the generator has a reasonable API then I'll be creating my own arb data and exporting it :-)

[tautech]

Thanks EF, very informative review and comparison. I'm not setting any expectations for the PC software, just so long as the generator has a reasonable API then I'll be creating my own arb data and exporting it :-)

There is a new Easywave package for the SDG2kX series, probably not shipped with new units yet.
http://www.siglentamerica.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=2595&tid=14

I asked Siglent about a Programming manual not long ago when they told me their "SDG_Remote Control Manual(Rev1.0)" did not support the SDG2kX series fully. AFAIK a new manual is coming.
http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/Program_Material/SDG_Remote%20Control%20Manual(Rev1.0).pdf

I'll chase them up. 

[Electro Fan]

Maybe Dave could do a comparison of Siglent, Rigol, and Keysight Arb Generators - or maybe someone wants to suggest other manufacturers or specific models.  For example, Tektronix Arb Gens don't come up here too often but Tek's software seems to be more in the Keysight league than the Siglent/Rigol league.  Ideally, the review would have two parts:  one on the front panel operations and one on the arb creation/editing process using a computer.

[CustomEngineerer]

Has Siglent posted a change log anywhere for the new EasyWave P34 version?

[nowlan]

On a side note, the basic Tek arb is a rebadge that wasnt supported by the software. There was a thread here last year.

[tautech]

Has Siglent posted a change log anywhere for the new EasyWave P34 version?

There might be one in the rar download file but I haven't checked. Have you?
 P32 | Published?2015-10-08 was the previous version.

[CustomEngineerer]

I didn't see a change log in the rar. I tried installing the new version (after uninstalling the old) and it continuously pops up errors when I start it up. I tried uninstalling and reinstalling again but kept having the same problems. For now I ended up uninstalling P34 and reinstalling P32. I may try to reinstall P34 again this weekend to see if I can figure out what is going on.

[tautech]

I didn't see a change log in the rar. I tried installing the new version (after uninstalling the old) and it continuously pops up errors when I start it up. I tried uninstalling and reinstalling again but kept having the same problems. For now I ended up uninstalling P34 and reinstalling P32. I may try to reinstall P34 again this weekend to see if I can figure out what is going on.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll report these problems to Siglent ASAP.

[tautech]

I didn't see a change log in the rar. I tried installing the new version (after uninstalling the old) and it continuously pops up errors when I start it up. I tried uninstalling and reinstalling again but kept having the same problems. For now I ended up uninstalling P34 and reinstalling P32. I may try to reinstall P34 again this weekend to see if I can figure out what is going on.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll report these problems to Siglent ASAP.

Tech support offered this:

I just Uninstall the P32 easywave and install the P34, I can not repeat the issue.

    I guess that the customer did not uninstall the P32 cleanly.
    And I find that for some users have this issue:
    When he install the PC software ?If he select the "Just me" selection. His computer will not run the software.

Not having the SDS2kX or needing to install the SW, I'm guessing this problem has something to do with the SW run permissions.....hope that helps. 

[Wuerstchenhund]

Will follow a brief summary of abstracts from your constructive contribution to this 3ad :

"And it looks like their waveform editor (EasyWave) is the same crap as for their other AWGs."
"Plus, I'd expect a truck load of firmware bugs when this thing comes out, as it has been typical for Siglent."
"and even more so with the crap software Siglent (and Rigol) provides for their AWGs."
"like the crap SDS2000 scope thanks to Siglent's ineptitude to write proper software for it"

Yeah, I used the word 'crap' to describe crap, how shocking 
What you (of course!) left out conveniently is that I usually also state why I concluded something is crap. I have owned Siglent and Rigol kit, and there are several devices of both manufacturers in my direct environment, so I do have a pretty good idea how they perform in the real world.

For example, I know that EasyWave is crap because I had a Siglent AWG before and I saw first hand how goddamn awful it is. At work I use the tools that are available (for free!) for Keysight and Tek AWGs I have some pretty good idea how a decent waveform editor looks like, and EasyWave is so far away from that it's not even funny. Siglent *could* have taken ideas from the free Tek ArbExpress software if they really cared about the quality of their product (which for an AWG includes the software!), but they haven't. The SDS1020 I had also came with several firmware bugs but I could forgive them because the thing was so cheap. However, it also came with a major hardware flaw that caused excessive jitter in square wave mode, which I had to fix myself (a big name vendor would have just replaced the units in the field).

I also know that Rigol isn't a lot better regarding its AWG software because I also had a Rigol AWG, and while Rigol's software was slightly less poor it was still more or less crap.

I also know how bad the SDS2000 is because I had one myself. The v2 firmware has certainly seen some improvements but the state is still beta status at best, which for a scope that is on the market for two years now is pretty embarrassing. As you cerainly know with your "experience", a good test instrument has to be reliable and results reproduceable, and should not act in a random or unpredictable manner. Even with the latest firmware the SDS2000 fails on all accounts. Siglent seems to lack proper software development processes, and they obviously don't even do their own testing (at least not at an appropriate level) because they pretty much rely on user feedback for finding flaws, and that includes many that would be obvious to pretty much any user so if they had done some testing they would have found them themselves.

So yes, if decent hardware is combined with shit software than the result can be, very much, a crap piece of kit.

Crap this, crap that ...  everything is crap, except of course the cream of cream that you buy.

Not really. Like many others I've bought my fair share of crap, like the Siglent SDS2204, or the Rigol DS1062z. And had you actually read my other posts I made in this forum over the years then you would have found that I often recommend devices I know which don't own or I wouldn't buy myself (or adviced against buying kit I bought myself), if I feel it's appropriate for someone seeking advice. That on occasion even included Siglent and Rigol kit.

I'm not saying the big brands are flawless, and there are a lot of things I'd criticize Keysight (or Tek, or LeCroy) for. But believing that the Chinese B-brands have found a magical solution to offer the same standard of kit as the big brands just at a much lower price is silly. The reason the Chinese gear is cheap is because they use generic off-the-shelf technology and components, they don't do complex stuff like research (while benefitting from others doing it) or developing their own ASICs because that costs a lot of money, and they cut lots of corners in design, testing, quality control and support (which they pretty much off-load to their dealers). Plus they benefit from cheap slave-like working conditions (most big brand kit comes from other countries including the US and Europe). This is also why Chinese B-brand kit is only really attractive at the bottom end of the market and gets increasingly unattractive in the higher market segments (and that isn't really going to change anytime soon).

Of course its great that beginners now have a wide range of really cheap gear at low prices available, and a lot of that is pretty decent (for a beginner), and others like the Rigol DS1054z really hard to beat. And that is pretty much down to the Chinese B-brands, which lowered the costs for entering the electronics hobby dramatically.

But there seems be some kind of cult particularly around both Chinese B-brands, probably because people see them in a similar way like say a Kickstarter startup - some young ambitious engineers who take their first step into business. Which sounds nice but ignores the reality which is that neither Rigol nor Siglent are startups but both seasoned manufacturers which are doing business for more than a decade, and which quite frankly should have sorted out major quirks. The fact they still haven't shows that not investing in better quality control pretty much shows that this is by purpose, i.e. part of their business strategy. Again,  the kit of both brands is cheap for a reason.

As I said before, there's nothing wrong with being satisfied with your Siglent/Rigol/whatever gear. If it fits your needs then good for you. There's also nothing wrong with buying B-brand gear as a starter. But one should be realistic, and understand that the low price is for a device which in build quality and support is appropriate to that price, and which does not necessarily reflect the reliability, performance or support that is generally expected from test equipment. It should be clear that a device which sells for a small part of the price of a big brand equivalent is cheap for a reason and will consequently suffer from bugs and issues which may or may not be fixed. That also means for those that value reliability and dependability and manufacturer support (or who don't want to support the slave labor conditions Chinese kit is often produced under), the 2nd hand market is still a viable option to new Chinese B-brand kit. So it shouldn't be dismissed right away as many seem to do, it's still useful to consider the potential 2nd hand alternatives before making a purchasing decision.

I didn't think that this is so hard to understand, but thanks for showing me that I was wrong.

[markone]

-snip
I'm not saying the big brands are flawless, and there are a lot of things I'd criticize Keysight (or Tek, or LeCroy) for. But believing that the Chinese B-brands have found a magical solution to offer the same standard of kit as the big brands just at a much lower price is silly.

If we were talking about instruments belonging to the same or adjacent market segment i would agree with you, but really this is not the case, we have a 6:1 street price ratio that is screaming the opposite.

You are comparing a device aimed to beginners, student, hobbyist, small farms and so on to a professional instrument suited for 24/7 operations and/or high end lab enviroments, as the first was declared in direct competition with the last, that's not the case.

Different price, different user needing, different MTBF, different bug user's tolerance and so on.

I think that SDG2000x family is very well centered in its market segment and earns every penny of it, your elaborate talking would be appropriate only if someone would put it on the same league with Agilent, Tek, R&S, Lecroy kits.

The vast majority of EEVblog participants consists of beginners, hobbyists and professionals that become hobbyists at home, for them Rigol & Siglent instruments are now the right answer for the budget.

In this context of use an 33522B would only be a pricey overkill.

Different talking would be if one has unlimited budget, but nowadays i do not think that is the average case, especially for EEVblog's lurkers.

Shedding unconditional crap on these specific companies (Rigol & Siglent) that (imho) made possible to lot of people to start to learn, to enjoy and to work in electronics providing new tech fair devices (for the price) sounds more like a personal crusade, on the other hand there are certainly other chinese companies that deserve this treatment, but ironically they were not mentioned at all in this 3ad.

I have nothing specific with you Wuerstchenhund, i only think that you are pointing your gun against the wrong target, sometime with a little too much sarcasm, acting like you were the only "pro" in the middle of newbie sea.