Siglent just drop its mic: New SDS800HD 12bit scope crazy price leaked

[rf-loop]

SDS800X HD model serie is now officially released inside China.

[Martin72]

and you cant get FFT right on DHO800.. why is that

Because I can't do magic.

[rteodor]

On a sarcastic note: does it have CandyCrush and WhatsApp ?

But seriously, I am curious of this penetration (in the physiological sense) of test equipment by Google.

[2N3055]

On a sarcastic note: does it have CandyCrush and WhatsApp ?

But seriously, I am curious of this penetration (in the physiological sense) of test equipment by Google.

Well, that is the topic over there in Rigol user base. No Android in Siglent (at least so far).


NOt related to you:

To all those who claim there is no trolling from antiSiglent people, just look at this thread.

[Antonio90]

I said there are less Rigol fans in Siglent threads than Siglent fans in Rigol's.
I don't generally see Rigol fans saying siglent is a "useless piece of crap" "or alpha unfinished toy". Generally.
I have seen enough posts, videos and articles to know Rigol releases unfinished tools quite often, but they are useful tools nevertheless (with the customers financing the latter parts of development). I have also seen enough to know Siglent puts out excellent tools (at least at the level I can play).
I get your points too, I would be very upset if I got an alpha or beta tool for work, but I'm fine for hobby if it costs much less.
I'm just not a professional, and I don't think most pros have a ~€400 tool as their main scope.
To user @JPortici. I have not called anyone a fanboy.
I don't see the problem of a scope being hackable, but maybe that's just me. I have in use A brands (keysight) and B+? (Gwinstek, brymen, and very old Fluke and Keithley). Also had a Picoscope, which I really liked. I actually don't have Rigol or Siglent equipment, and I might get your points early next year.

[Mechatrommer]

and you cant get FFT right on DHO800.. why is that

Because I can't do magic.

what kind of excuse is that? All it takes is few button presses and knob rotations. no need magic, it looks to me you tried to achieve what dave got... dick n balls.. pro can do much better.. for eg. setting mem depth to 1Mpts is deliberate work. if you got dick n balls, its only use intuition to increase mem depth to 10Mpts to get better view. Maybe Fungus is right you only look for its weakness, compare n represent it with best setting of siglent and you call that 20yrs of field TE experience.. i'll say 20yrs experience of using one particular brand only and nothing else.. not even high end one..

[Martin72]

I have not apologized.
This is a fundamental error in the FFT, which others had also found, read there again.
If you still think it's an operator error, then show us how to do it properly there, it's off-topic here.

[2N3055]

And it all went down the drain, completely.

People, the discussion here is about "dick n balls" aparently.
Who knew?

[PELL]

Guys.... be nice to each other.

The original idea for making this post was to share some little funny toys with you guys. But it ends up as an argument.

If this argument continues, I will probably lock down this thread (If I can)

lmao, seems like no one wants to read this "pls be friendly" post.

If I see one more toxic reply with aggressive words, I will delete this thread.

I don't know how things got to this point, it is just a new bargain product that benefits pretty much everybody.

I am a DHO804 user and love to see Siglent join this competition.

[gf]

I have not apologized.
This is a fundamental error in the FFT, which others had also found, read there again.

It's obviously a bug. It needs to be reported and fixed by the vendor. No product is bug-free. Much more important than the bug itself is IMO the way in which the vendor deals with bug reports. Are they acknowledged at all? Is the vendor willing to fix bugs? And how long do I need to wait for fixes?

[tautech]

and you cant get FFT right on DHO800.. why is that

Because I can't do magic.

what kind of excuse is that? All it takes is few button presses and knob rotations. no need magic, it looks to me you tried to achieve what dave got... dick n balls.. pro can do much better.. for eg. setting mem depth to 1Mpts is deliberate work. if you got dick n balls, its only use intuition to increase mem depth to 10Mpts to get better view. Maybe Fungus is right you only look for its weakness, compare n represent it with best setting of siglent and you call that 20yrs of field TE experience.. i'll say 20yrs experience of using one particular brand only and nothing else.. not even high end one..

Pull your head in Mech as Martin uses high end LeCroys at his work and knows plenty about TE in general.

[Antonio90]

Quick price conversion at current rates.
I certainly didn't expect this. It remains to be seen whether these ratios reach the West or not.
Maybe it's a promotional price to directly compete for christmas gifts?

The SDS824 HD is priced at DHO1074 BF level, and based on rf-loop posts I assume the lower versions will have some hardware memory differences?

I don't think there's anything quite like this. A 4-channel, 2GSa/s, 12 bit, bode-plot capability, 4 MPTs FFT, 4 math channels, arbitrary math, etc. Basically SDS6000 software for around 300 bucks is just nuts.

[NE666]

No product is bug-free. Much more important than the bug itself is IMO the way in which the vendor deals with bug reports. Are they acknowledged at all? Is the vendor willing to fix bugs? And how long do I need to wait for fixes?

^^That, exactly that.  I've a few Rigol items but I'm mostly ambivalent to the brand.  They are tools which work for me, at a price I'm prepared to pay for them, end of.  However, "disappointed" is more on target, if I'm really asked and more important to Rigol themselves, I'm now reluctant to purchase anything else from them.

Someone here previously said words to the effect that "software shouldn't be released until it is fully specified, 100% correct".  Nice idea in theory, and true(er) if you're working on code for life-at-risk applications.  However, in today's world, that's not how development is done, not if you ever want to release anything and make some money so that you can continue to develop it further.  So long as the code/product gives some value to someone in its current state, relative to its cost to them (direct and indirect) it's good to go.  The (massively important) corollary to this is, successful software companies/publishers have an effective feedback loop around that.

You engage with your user base and actively solicit and encourage that engagement. You log and track their issues (preferably openly and publicly) and you correct and adapt with regular release cycles.  You, within varying margins of error, publish the proposed content of future releases and estimated timescales.  You have an effective release management process (not "why is this F/W revision available on one international site but not another?) This is what, imho, is missing from Rigol's approach and which if in place, would remove much of the negative sentiment we're seeing playing out in the above conversations.  They've a GitHub repository but where is the bug list?  Where is the user forum?   Where is the engagement / response to users?  Where is the published release cadence?  They do nothing of value with it, such a wasted opportunity for a company largely addressing today's hobbyists for which this is development 101.

You CAN make money, capture markets and simultaneously satisfy users with alpha/beta release products/software (see Tesla, or Apple iPhone before them, if you're in any doubt) and it's a perfectly valid strategy.  But you have to play the game as intended.

BTW - Rigol, if you're reading, I've a couple of decades in software product management and I'm available.  I'd be happy to show you how this is done.

[Mechatrommer]

I have not apologized.
This is a fundamental error in the FFT, which others had also found, read there again.
If you still think it's an operator error, then show us how to do it properly there, it's off-topic here.

flat top windowing function admittedly got something wrong. why you think insisting on buggy window is the way to look at FFT? there are other window functions thats not buggy, why in your infinite and maturely wisdom not suggesting those?. btw, i'm talking about resolution or bin size of the FFT, i provided you with reply in that thread with all relevant windowings with "proper" resolution, not dick'n balls resolution. and again linked here, i'm not sure if you can read, or you only want to see what you want to see...

If I see one more toxic reply with aggressive words, I will delete this thread.

try it, you cant. we tried on our own threads. and fwiw, i believe this is what is called "discussion" as long as its academic and civil not including personal insult. i have no objection. or course you'll find some "harsh" word meant for joke here and there, you cant get rid of it here in this forum i bet you that... this is dave's forum after all. do you know how he terms things? yeah! dick n balls is one of it! i bet you havent seen enough of his videos. cheers.

[ebastler]

SDS800X HD model serie is now officially released inside China.

How long does it typically take after that until an international product release? The 1000X HD was (and still is) obviously untypical. Any word from Siglent regarding planned release dates in the Western world, for both the 800 and 1000X HD series?

[rf-loop]

... and based on rf-loop posts I assume the lower versions will have some hardware memory differences?

These differences are now also officially published and 2 and 4 Ch 70/100MHz  vs  2 and 4Ch 200MHz versions differences:
50M  vs 100M  Max acquisition memory length when one channel is in use.   50/25/10M vs 100/50/25M
Up to max  80kwfm/s    vs  120kwfm/s  (Sequence mode up to max 500kwfm/s in both sub groups)

No other differences.

[ebastler]

... and based on rf-loop posts I assume the lower versions will have some hardware memory differences?

These differences are now also officially published and 2 and 4 Ch 70/100MHz  vs  2 and 4Ch 200MHz versions differences:
50M  vs 100M  Max acquisition memory length when one channel is in use.   50/25/10M vs 100/50/25M
Up to max  80kwfm/s    vs  120kwfm/s  (Sequence mode up to max 500kwfm/s in both sub groups)

No other differences.

Thanks. But do we know whether these are actual hardware differences or whether they are software-controlled and hackable? Even if they are hackable, we would still have to wait and see whether the low-end models will actually be available outside of China, of course.

[rf-loop]

SDS800X HD model serie is now officially released inside China.

How long does it typically take after that until an international product release? The 1000X HD was (and still is) obviously untypical. Any word from Siglent regarding planned release dates in the Western world, for both the 800 and 1000X HD series?

Commentarium non faciam.
I will not comment.
Mi ne komentos.
我不会发表评论。
 

[ebastler]

How long does it typically take after that until an international product release? The 1000X HD was (and still is) obviously untypical. Any word from Siglent regarding planned release dates in the Western world, for both the 800 and 1000X HD series?

Commentarium non faciam.
I will not comment.
Mi ne komentos.
我不会发表评论。
 

If you can't comment on part two of question (any word from Siglent?) for confidentiality reasons, how about a non-binding answer to the first part (how long does it typically take)? 

[2N3055]

I have not apologized.
This is a fundamental error in the FFT, which others had also found, read there again.

It's obviously a bug. It needs to be reported and fixed by the vendor. No product is bug-free. Much more important than the bug itself is IMO the way in which the vendor deals with bug reports. Are they acknowledged at all? Is the vendor willing to fix bugs? And how long do I need to wait for fixes?

I absolutely agree with you on all you said.

"Bug" is a colloquial slang  for a type of software malfunction.

Specifically, it used to be used for certain type of errors in program function that were not caught in standard testing.
It used to mean a type of problem that was hard to catch, would only represent itself in specific circumstances and such.
For instance, generally well functioning program would only make calculation errors on 28th of February on leap years.. And only in one report, and then only if report was more than 5 pages long.
That is what we used to call a bug.

When vendor would deliver a program that would, out of the box, have 5 out of 25 reports not working properly, we would call them back and tell them we pay on delivery, and that they did not deliver functional program.  We couldn't care less if they promised they will fix it later. That was not bugs, but unfinished software if user can find defects after few hours of work with it.

If I'm mistaken in these definitions and am wrong, I apologize for wasting everybody's time. Let me know so I can shut up.

[pdenisowski]

Mi ne komentos.

Mi komencis tedegi pro ĉi tiu fadeno, ĝis mi rimarkis Esperanton

(I was starting to get tired of this thread until I noticed Esperanto )

[tv84]

They do nothing of value with it, such a wasted opportunity for a company largely addressing today's hobbyists for which this is development 101.

I've been thinking on this for long and my conclusion: I guess Rigol has no incentive for it as they are pretty successful with that strategy and it's on par in terms of success with Siglent's strategy of implementing a more A-brand like approach. It's in their ADN.

This is all a balance of expectations. In the end of the day, will all the bugs and bug-solving strategies each use, they (Rigol and Siglent) continue to have/increase their customer base because there are all kinds of people that find their expectations solved by the different set of features/results each test equipment presents (and, as this forum continuously shows, there are few that truly understand the intricacies/quirks of these types of equipments and what is behind what they are seeing on the screen).

So, this is all normal and we should all be grateful for the so much different approaches. Are there missing opportunities here? Probably there are. Would there be such competition if both approaches were the same? Probably not.

[2N3055]

I have not apologized.
This is a fundamental error in the FFT, which others had also found, read there again.
If you still think it's an operator error, then show us how to do it properly there, it's off-topic here.

flat top windowing function admittedly got something wrong. why you think insisting on buggy window is the way to look at FFT? there are other window functions thats not buggy, why in your infinite and maturely wisdom not suggesting those?. btw, i'm talking about resolution or bin size of the FFT, i provided you with reply in that thread with all relevant windowings with "proper" resolution, not dick'n balls resolution. and again linked here, i'm not sure if you can read, or you only want to see what you want to see...

If I see one more toxic reply with aggressive words, I will delete this thread.

try it, you cant. we tried on our own threads. and fwiw, i believe this is what is called "discussion" as long as its academic and civil not including personal insult. i have no objection. or course you'll find some "harsh" word meant for joke here and there, you cant get rid of it here in this forum i bet you that... this is dave's forum after all. do you know how he terms things? yeah! dick n balls is one of it! i bet you havent seen enough of his videos. cheers.

Because you should know that Flattop window is most important and is used most of the time, because of amplitude accuracy.
Fact that out of the box Flattop window is wrong means that nobody competent in Rigol did not test that function even ONCE.
If they did they would catch it on FIRST look (Like Tom did) and aparently fix was 10 minutes.... By the user.

Therefore my conclusion is that software was not tested AT ALL. Imagine what horrors lie below the surface....

And that is on DHO1000 made a year ago. So nobody tested FFT in a year either...

[2N3055]

They do nothing of value with it, such a wasted opportunity for a company largely addressing today's hobbyists for which this is development 101.

I've been thinking on this for long and my conclusion: I guess Rigol has no incentive for it as they are pretty successful with that strategy and it's on par in terms of success with Siglent's strategy of implementing a more A-brand like approach. It's in their ADN.

This is all a balance of expectations. In the end of the day, will all the bugs and bug-solving strategies each use, they (Rigol and Siglent) continue to have/increase their customer base because there are all kinds of people that find their expectations solved by the different set of features/results each test equipment presents (and, as this forum continuously shows, there are few that truly understand the intricacies/quirks of these types of equipments and what is behind what they are seeing on the screen).

So, this is all normal and we should all be grateful for the so much different approaches. Are there missing opportunities here? Probably there are. Would there be such competition if both approaches were the same? Probably not.

Thank you!

That is smartest thing written here on a forum in a long time.

Best,

[Antonio90]

SDS800X HD model serie is now officially released inside China.

How long does it typically take after that until an international product release? The 1000X HD was (and still is) obviously untypical. Any word from Siglent regarding planned release dates in the Western world, for both the 800 and 1000X HD series?

The best we have is Tautech's hint/guess/approximate Q1 2024. I think it's expected early next year, so a few weeks from now. But I have no data.
I don't think the base model will be easily (or at all) hackable to 200MHz/100MPts/120kWFm/s. They seem to be implementing a very clear-cut market segmentation, and the lower price models would step too much on the 1000X HD for a third of the price.