Tools I want

[BirdManPhil]

I've messed with electronics off and on for 28 years. I built an analog multimeter when I was 13 from a radio shack kit. Until recently it was always just a hobby and way to make extra cash on the side. I'm at a point in my life where I'm happily repairing electronics 6 days a week for 50 hours and I love it, but I'm teaching myself more and more every day and I'm going to start really expanding my tool base.

You guys are the only people who I think can point me in the right direction here. I have wanted a scope since I was 16 but back then even the old used analog crt scopes were too much money for me. Over the years working on computers, tvs, radios vcrs and now phones, tablets and game consols ice never once used a scope for anything and I've always wondered how many "no fix" jobs were die to me not understanding how a scope could be used to better diagnose a circuit.

So my learning journey begins and I'm pulling the trigger. It's probably overkill but I'm taking a look at these 2 scopes for the "hackability" as well as combination if features and tools in one device:
Rigol MSO5074
Siglent SDS804X HD

I really like how these have so many tools in one. My main confusion is bandwidth I've never really had to consider that until now. I read that I2C lines are typically 100khz-400khz, and I2C problems are common killers of $1000 iphones and that's easy to cover on any scope . My question is do I even need a 350mhz mso for anything? What are the frequencies I'm likely to run into dealing with lines inside a 13 pro max for example?






I will likely never really need 90% of the features these scopes have. But I want to have fun learning and not be limited by very budget gear. I set my max budget for the base scope itself minus hardware addons to $1000. Which would you choose if you were working on modern devices like smartphones and tablets often and am I missing a scope I should consider over these 2?
Thanks a ton in advance this is alot to learn lol

[Aldo22]

In my opinion, there are two approaches.
You know the saying "Buy cheap, buy twice".
I say why not (buy twice)?
If I have no idea about something reasonably complex, I always buy a cheap model first.
If I see that it's not enough, then I know why and I know what I need and what I have to look out for.

In the end, you might even save money this way. New 100MHz scopes are available for well under $200, which is significantly less than the price difference between the Rigol MSO5074 and the Siglent SDS804X HD.

Others (especially salespeople) say: "Buy something real straight away".
Often you end up with a device that is too complex to start with, or where you simply don't need 90% of the features.

I know that many people here have a different opinion.
It's a question of personal preference.

However, the Siglent SDS804X HD is reasonably inexpensive, so you could give it a try. 

[tautech]

In my opinion, there are two approaches.
You know the saying "Buy cheap, buy twice".
I say why not?
If I have no idea about something reasonably complex, I always buy a cheap model first.
If I see that it's not enough, then I know why and I know what I need and what I have to look out for.

In the end, you might even save money this way. New 100MHz scopes are available for well under $200, which is significantly less than the price difference between the Rigol MSO5074 and the Siglent SDS804X HD.

Others (especially salespeople) say: "Buy something real straight away".
Often you end up with a device that is too complex to start with, or where you simply don't need 90% of the features.

I know that many people here have a different opinion.
It's a question of personal preference.

However, the Siglent SDS804X HD is reasonably inexpensive, so you could give it a try. 

Buying an instrument for 'now' vs something you can grow into as skills develop need also be considered.

[Fungus]

In my opinion, there are two approaches.
You know the saying "Buy cheap, buy twice".

So we should all buy BMW/Mercedes as our first cars?

You guys are the only people who I think can point me in the right direction here. I have wanted a scope since I was 16 but back then even the old used analog crt scopes were too much money for me. Over the years working on computers, tvs, radios vcrs and now phones, tablets and game consols ice never once used a scope for anything and I've always wondered how many "no fix" jobs were die to me not understanding how a scope could be used to better diagnose a circuit.

A 'scope lets you see what's happening in a wire. Without a 'scope you're working blind.

I really like how these have so many tools in one. My main confusion is bandwidth I've never really had to consider that until now. I read that I2C lines are typically 100khz-400khz, and I2C problems are common killers of $1000 iphones and that's easy to cover on any scope . My question is do I even need a 350mhz mso for anything? What are the frequencies I'm likely to run into dealing with lines inside a 13 pro max for example?

Remember that a a square wave is the sum of a series of sine waves. For the square wave to be nice and square on the screen your 'scope needs to see those higher frequencies as well as the base 100khz-400khz frequency.

I don't know if you really need the logic analyzer abilities when you have a 4-channel 'scope. Most internal buses are serial.

I will likely never really need 90% of the features these scopes have. But I want to have fun learning and not be limited by very budget gear. I set my max budget for the base scope itself minus hardware addons to $1000. Which would you choose if you were working on modern devices like smartphones and tablets often and am I missing a scope I should consider over these 2?

For digital stuff: High bandwidth and high sample rate are king. The Rigol has numbers for both that are hard to argue with.

[Aldo22]

In my opinion, there are two approaches.
You know the saying "Buy cheap, buy twice".

So we should all buy BMW/Mercedes as our first cars?

No, I meant the opposite. I'm not a fan of that saying.
I meant: "Why not buy twice, first something cheap and later what you really need, when you know what you need?"

For digital stuff: High bandwidth and high sample rate are king. The Rigol has numbers for both that are hard to argue with.

Both the Rigol MSO5074 and the Siglent SDS804X HD are 70MHz scopes, which is not a particularly high bandwidth.

[Fungus]

I meant: "Why not buy twice, first something cheap and later what you really need, when you know what you need?"

OK.

For digital stuff: High bandwidth and high sample rate are king. The Rigol has numbers for both that are hard to argue with.

Both the Rigol MSO5074 and the Siglent SDS804X HD are 70MHz scopes, which is not a particularly high bandwidth.

Both are hackable to the highest spec model in the range.

[Fungus]

There's also the Rigol DHO804 which is also easily capable of doing this.

[BirdManPhil]

I was looking at the dso924s should I add that back to my list of potential candidates?

One thing that appealed to me was the native 12 bit of the siglent, in video reviews I watched they were able to really zoom in on small artifacts with great detail and I really like that alot

[Aldo22]

I was looking at the dso924s should I add that back to my list of potential candidates?

One thing that appealed to me was the native 12 bit of the siglent, in video reviews I watched they were able to really zoom in on small artifacts with great detail and I really like that alot

You mean DHO924S, right?
They are all 12bit, including the Rigol DHO800 series.
As far as I understand, the DHO900 is a little less recommendable (bang for the buck) than the DHO800, but others can give you more detailed information.

[TomKatt]

I’d think that it’s one thing to diagnose issues on complex modern devices, but it’s another thing altogether to repair them…. I don’t do much smd work and at my age I don’t think my eyes and hands are steady enough to do that kind of thing.  I’d budget for a microscope and smd soldering station in addition to any test gear.

Either the Rigol DHO804 or the Siglent SDS804X HD (both upgradable) would be the 2 scopes recommended for people starting out.  I’m partial to the Siglent side but I’m sure the Rigol would do whatever you’d need.

As far as what I want - I’ve been really hung up on finding an HP 547A current tracer type device I can afford.

[Fungus]

I was looking at the dso924s should I add that back to my list of potential candidates?

It's not recommended. For that price you can get the MSO5000.

One thing that appealed to me was the native 12 bit of the siglent

The Rigol HDO804 is also 12 bits.

in video reviews I watched they were able to really zoom in on small artifacts with great detail and I really like that alot

You don't need that for looking at i2c buses (or any other digital) though.

[nctnico]

In my opinion, there are two approaches.
You know the saying "Buy cheap, buy twice".

So we should all buy BMW/Mercedes as our first cars?

That is a bit of an exaggeration but it helps to buy a decent car right of the bat. Currently I have a cheap, tiny clunker car on loan from the garage because my car broke down. The tiny clunker car is a handfull to drive (like a go-kart) and noisy as hell.

So yes, spending more gives you more comfort and enjoyment.

[BirdManPhil]

Yes of course. I already do micro smd work sort of, I can split iphone logic board sandwiches I have thermal camera for finding shorts and a trinocular strereoscope. I'm still learning how to transplant the cpu/nand/eprom/bbic without floating other components on the new board but yeah my hands aren't as steady as thi was practicing teplacing a cey used to be either I feel your pain lol.the last time replacing the charging ic on a dead donor iphone 13 board I made a mess but hey practice makes perfect right. I'm working diligently to ge my diagnostic abilities on par though and that requires capable reliable accurate equipment and alot of learning.

[TomKatt]

Yes of course. I already do micro smd work sort of, I can split iphone logic board sandwiches I have thermal camera for finding shorts and a trinocular strereoscope. I'm still learning how to transplant the cpu/nand/eprom/bbic without floating other components on the new board but yeah my hands aren't as steady as thi was practicing teplacing a cey used to be either I feel your pain lol.the last time replacing the charging ic on a dead donor iphone 13 board I made a mess but hey practice makes perfect right. I'm working diligently to ge my diagnostic abilities on par though and that requires capable reliable accurate equipment and alot of learning.

I was always impressed watching old Louis Rossman videos…. I don’t recall him ever using much more than a multimeter and thermal camera to identify faults.  Granted it seems like there was a basic list of failures or bad component histories, so it’s not like he was diagnosing equipment that he did not already have some information about.

[nctnico]

Yes of course. I already do micro smd work sort of, I can split iphone logic board sandwiches I have thermal camera for finding shorts and a trinocular strereoscope. I'm still learning how to transplant the cpu/nand/eprom/bbic without floating other components on the new board but yeah my hands aren't as steady as thi was practicing teplacing a cey used to be either I feel your pain lol.the last time replacing the charging ic on a dead donor iphone 13 board I made a mess but hey practice makes perfect right. I'm working diligently to ge my diagnostic abilities on par though and that requires capable reliable accurate equipment and alot of learning.

I was always impressed watching old Louis Rossman videos…. I don’t recall him ever using much more than a multimeter and thermal camera to identify faults.  Granted it seems like there was a basic list of failures or bad component histories, so it’s not like he was diagnosing equipment that he did not already have some information about.

If you spend some time repairing equipment, you'll soon find out that a lot of faults are common. So diagnose once and repeat every time you find the same problem.

[BirdManPhil]

You should see the videos of them grinding the surface of a ic to expose the shorted cap inside so they can repair the ic itself it's pretty cool