Should I buy a Rigol MSO5000?

[Fungus]

Not true. If there is anyone with a monetary interest in Rigol it must be Fungus. In every Rigol-ish topic he is the one pretending it is all sunshine and unicorns. Usually pretending that long (10s to 100s of pages long) topics about bugs in Rigol equipment don't even exist.  Perhaps it is time Fungus reveals himself as a Rigol employee.

Is this the same Fungus who started the whole "Siglent hacking" thread and has been saying since the very first day it was hacked that hacked Rigols/Siglents are now about equal bang-per-buck? Just asking...

For clarity: I have no monetary interest in any brand. Just trying to help people make a good choice for themselves by showing the good AND the bad.

...all the while totally ignoring that fact that Siglents aren't all sunshine and unicorns either and that some people simply don't care if their FFT is a bit rubbish or that the input amplifier overdrives by a tiny amount if you go into the 200mV range then manually tune the gain up to 400mV.

For the price of a 4-channel Siglent you can have a DS1054Z and a very nice multimeter. I'm just recognizing what's better value for people who don't know what op-amp overdrive is and don't care if the internal oscillator follows the design guidelines or not, just so long as it works.

All those bugs on Rigol are simple "neurotic people bugs", on a day to day use, you don't feel any of those bugs

This.

[nctnico]

It seems like somebody is comparing the MSO5000 to equivalent spec scopes from high-end players, not equivalent money.

That would be Rigol themselves. 

[Fungus]

The oscilloscope market is just interesting to follow and so far the A-brands don't seem to feel threatened at all.

Brand names have great power but you can bet they're following Rigol/Siglent very closely.

[nctnico]

...all the while totally ignoring that fact that Siglents aren't all sunshine and unicorns either and that some people simply don't care if their FFT is a bit rubbish or that the input amplifier overdrives by a tiny amount if you go into the 200mV range then manually tune the gain up to 400mV.

This topic isn't about Siglent but if you insist: the scope I threw in the trash was an expensive one from Siglent so I'm not a fan of them. OTOH in all fairness I have to conclude that -based on what gets posted on this forum- it does seem that Siglent has improved their firmware development a lot and is getting ahead of Rigol.

[Fungus]

it does seem that Siglent has improved their firmware development a lot and is getting ahead of Rigol.

Rigol has just spent three years developing their own ASIC for the front end and switching to Xilinx-based hardware (I assume this meant starting from zero, firmware-wise). They might just be getting warmed up. 

[Aidanator7000]

For clarity: I have no monetary interest in any brand. Just trying to help people make a good choice for themselves by showing the good AND the bad.

...all the while totally ignoring that fact that Siglents aren't all sunshine and unicorns either and that some people simply don't care if their FFT is a bit rubbish or that the input amplifier overdrives by a tiny amount if you go into the 200mV range then manually tune the gain up to 400mV.

For the price of a 4-channel Siglent you can have a DS1054Z and a very nice multimeter. I'm just recognizing what's better value for people who don't know what op-amp overdrive is and don't care if the internal oscillator follows the design guidelines or not, just so long as it works.

You should know by now that nctnico is a GWInstek fanboy 

[tautech]

For clarity: I have no monetary interest in any brand. Just trying to help people make a good choice for themselves by showing the good AND the bad.

...all the while totally ignoring that fact that Siglents aren't all sunshine and unicorns either and that some people simply don't care if their FFT is a bit rubbish or that the input amplifier overdrives by a tiny amount if you go into the 200mV range then manually tune the gain up to 400mV.

For the price of a 4-channel Siglent you can have a DS1054Z and a very nice multimeter. I'm just recognizing what's better value for people who don't know what op-amp overdrive is and don't care if the internal oscillator follows the design guidelines or not, just so long as it works.

You should know by now that nctnico is a GWInstek fanboy 

Was, owns a R&S now.

[Fungus]

You should know by now that nctnico is a GWInstek fanboy 

Good Will Instek, the "Macbeth" of oscilloscopes. 

[nctnico]

You should know by now that nctnico is a GWInstek fanboy 

Was, owns a R&S now.

Nope. The R&S is on loan. Over the years I have owned oscilloscopes from about every brand out there (except for Lecroy but that is because an Ebay seller didn't know how to send something outside the US).

[EEVblog]

and, (c) There's no way in hell the MSO5000 can compete in the market without hacking. $5000 for all options? That's a complete joke.

Yes, and I've heard that the dealers have had to get big price discounts approved so they can sell it competitively. If you are spending say $3-5k then it's a different ball game.

[EEVblog]

Rigol has just spent three years developing their own ASIC for the front end and switching to Xilinx-based hardware (I assume this meant starting from zero, firmware-wise). They might just be getting warmed up. 

An ASIC that has no boxcar averaging (high resolution mode) 

[petemate]

Hi guys, thanks for all your replies. Its very.. interesting to read all the different opnions on Rigol and their products. Anyway, the answer is that obviously I would like Keysight/Tek/R&S/Lecroy scope, but I simply can't justify it. If you compare specs, matches to the MSO5000 is in the range of 3-10 times as expensive and are simply out of the question. I get access to those instruments at work anyway, so if the need rises, I can technically borrow one. But I would like my own for the day-to-day stuff that I do at home.

Rigol has just spent three years developing their own ASIC for the front end and switching to Xilinx-based hardware (I assume this meant starting from zero, firmware-wise). They might just be getting warmed up. 

An ASIC that has no boxcar averaging (high resolution mode) 

Are you sure about this? I seem to recall from one of your videos that you complained about this, but this video says that it does have a hi-res mode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_dXvpEV18g&feature=youtu.be&t=55 - nothing is mentioned in the manual, though.

[Fungus]

Hi guys, thanks for all your replies. Its very.. interesting to read all the different opnions on Rigol and their products. Anyway, the answer is that obviously I would like Keysight/Tek/R&S/Lecroy scope, but I simply can't justify it. If you compare specs, matches to the MSO5000 is in the range of 3-10 times as expensive and are simply out of the question. I get access to those instruments at work anyway, so if the need rises, I can technically borrow one. But I would like my own for the day-to-day stuff that I do at home.

Rigol has just spent three years developing their own ASIC for the front end and switching to Xilinx-based hardware (I assume this meant starting from zero, firmware-wise). They might just be getting warmed up. 

An ASIC that has no boxcar averaging (high resolution mode) 

Are you sure about this? I seem to recall from one of your videos that you complained about this, but this video says that it does have a hi-res mode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_dXvpEV18g&feature=youtu.be&t=55 - nothing is mentioned in the manual, though.

I thought they added it in the last firmware update.

Or, at least, it appeared as a selection in the menu but it didn't work properly.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/msg2233962/#msg2233962

[nctnico]

Hi guys, thanks for all your replies. Its very.. interesting to read all the different opnions on Rigol and their products. Anyway, the answer is that obviously I would like Keysight/Tek/R&S/Lecroy scope, but I simply can't justify it. If you compare specs, matches to the MSO5000 is in the range of 3-10 times as expensive and are simply out of the question. I get access to those instruments at work anyway, so if the need rises, I can technically borrow one. But I would like my own for the day-to-day stuff that I do at home.

I get the feeling but sometimes you just have to be realistic. If it seems to be too good to be true then it usually is too good to be true. Creating a good product requires a lot of engineering effort and that simply takes money. We all would like a BMW 7 series for the price of a Ford Focus.

You can also check the second hand market. After my Siglent mishap I just ponied up the cash and bought a used Agilent MSO7104. Not cheap but at least it worked as it should. Nowadays there are many other choices to consider which offer similar functionality. If you like a big touch screen then the new MicSig STO1000 series could be an option (knobs and touch screen). It has an 800x600 screen so it has more screen real-estate compared to other scopes with a 800x480 screen and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

If you are still unsure just buy an MSO5000 and try it for yourself. Just be sure to buy it from a shop which isn't fuzzy about returns or even better: get a fully optioned one on loan for a couple of weeks.

[luma]

You can also check the second hand market. After my Siglent mishap I just ponied up the cash and bought a used Agilent MSO7104. Not cheap but at least it worked as it should.

The MSO7104 is currently selling used for nearly 10x the purchase price of the scope the OP is asking about.  Look, we all get it - you don't like low-end scopes.  Not everyone is going to spend the price of a decent used car on a bench tool.  Is there some point where you take a moment to consider if your post is actually adding something beneficial to the conversation?

Anyway, to the OP - the Rigol MSO5000 series is a solid upgrade.  The firmware hack is pretty well entrenched, the encryption keys burned into the device have been extracted, so it's hard to imagine a situation where Rigol could effectively lock us out at this point, meaning it's safe to presume the hacks are here to stay.  If you don't need the extra features right yet, maybe hang out with your 1054Z until things shake out.  The current state of the firmware is just fine, I've encountered no glaring bugs in my own use of the device (limited mostly to low-speed probing of home-built microcontroller projects), and the extra features over the 1054 have warranted the price of purchase for me.

[Fungus]

We all would like a BMW 7 series for the price of a Ford Focus.

An awful lot of people manage to get to work and go shopping without heated massaging seats.

[Noy]

I die exactly what the OP want.
Sold my DS1054z for 300€ and bought MSO5074.
And I'm happy. 350MHz for 1k nice. But even without the Hack the bigger Screen an dedicated knobs for every Channel was worth the money for me.

[nctnico]

You can also check the second hand market. After my Siglent mishap I just ponied up the cash and bought a used Agilent MSO7104. Not cheap but at least it worked as it should.

The MSO7104 is currently selling used for nearly 10x the purchase price of the scope the OP is asking about.  Look, we all get it - you don't like low-end scopes.  Not everyone is going to spend the price of a decent used car on a bench tool.  Is there some point where you take a moment to consider if your post is actually adding something beneficial to the conversation?

Perhaps you should have read my entire post. The MicSig scope I'm prosing costs less. And if you read my posts more carefully you'd know I have nothing against entry level scopes. What I do have a problem with is putting an unfinished product on the market. Ofcourse you want to defend you spending money on the MSO5000 but that doesn't necessarily help others; you are very strongly biased towards finding justification for your choice.

Also asking price isn't selling price on Ebay. I bought my MSO7104 with all options for little over half of what the Ebay sellers are asking currently. And I bought it several years ago. Nowadays you should be able to find a deal in the $3000 range if someone wants to sell it.

[JPortici]

My problem was that I expected something really different for a $999 scope.  It just feels like a DS1054Z plus.  If the DS1054Z and MSO5074 are the only scopes you used, I am sure you will be satisfied.

And that's the problem.
Once you use ANY other oscilloscope you see how flawed the rigols really are.. Not only in software bugs but also in user interface design*, gimmick features* and hardware limitations, like the fact that many of the high sensitivity ranges in the 5000 series are digital zoom of an 8 bit acquisition.

There are people that won't stand for it and critisizing is NOT being rigol-haters. Wanting better tools and not settling for unfinished, flawed stuff is not about bashing a company. Life is too short to waste time on that

*IMHO.

[TK]

Everybody will be happy with a scope that you can buy for $999 and hack it to 350MHz and 100% of the options, even with a huge list of bugs...

until the bug affects you... then you will feel cheated and get buyer's remorse.

[exe]

Wow, didn't know the base model costs so low. To me it looks like a good _second_ scope for high-speed signals. 8GSa, damn, that's fast. Although, I suspect, to get fully use of 350MHz bandwidth, it might be needed to replace probes, that may be pricey.

[luma]

The included probes are specced to 350MHz at 10x.  They're basic passive probes but reasonable for the money.

[Fungus]

until the bug affects you... then you will feel cheated and get buyer's remorse.

Doesn't matter how many times you repeat that, it isn't true.

[dietert1]

Last year we bought a Rigol DS2202E that came with a free options package.
The scope works well, it's more or less quiet and it is handy for servicing other stuff. I mean with an expensive scope you think twice before taking it from its place.
Some weeks ago we wanted to use the I2C decoder for the first time, but it did not produce any meaningful results. On consecutive repetitions of the identical data sequence each time it produced different (false!) results. I got the work done with our LeCroy Waverunner and wrote an EMail to Rigol, including screen dumps. No response whatsoever, not even an automatic one.
Whether a Rigol DSO is good enough depends on the type of work you want to use it for. In our lab we use it for work that was previously done with a Tektronix 2465 analog scope. The missing bandwidth doesn't really make a difference.

Regards, Dieter

[TK]

until the bug affects you... then you will feel cheated and get buyer's remorse.

Doesn't matter how many times you repeat that, it isn't true.

I don't remember from the other MSO5000 threads... do you own one?  Have you used it?