Seriously, why would anyone consider anything else than Rigol?

[SilverSolder]

[...] Rigol do seems to have good hardware, and also for a much lower prices than anyone else (perhaps connection to CCP party gives the debated subsidies for Rigol to sell scopes outside of China below manufacturing prices).  [...]

You are smearing on a thick layer of propaganda here.   American and European manufacturers are also subsidised, including scope manufacturers, in various ways.

So why pick on China - is it that you psychologically need an enemy to make yourself feel better about your own life?

I did not know that USA or EU subsidies scope manufactures. Which manufactures is that get those subsidies?

The reason I am asking about the Chinese ones, was because it was informed in another Rigol-thread (by a Chinese person) that the Chinese regime gave subsidies to Rigol for selling their scope outside the China market. Do you say that information is false?

I am very much interested to know the facts (especially with all the trade wars going on, this is hot stuff).

OK.

 - First you need to know that in general, it is completely normal for incentives to be granted to any industry, especially in an area where there is unemployment.  This is done with the idea of boosting the economy in that area and, hopefully, make it self sustaining in the longer run.  It is very common for American states to compete for corporations' attention by offering various attractive sweeteners.  Of course, any company that has received a subsidy in this way, can use that money in different ways - either to run low prices to shut others out of the market, or just add to the profitability of the company.  For example, https://mexicogov.org/incentives.php

Then, there are the "hidden subsidies" that are created by government programmes such as aerospace or the military.  These branches of government typically have a LOT of money at their disposal and they disperse it to industry via tactics like buying equipment  and/or parts at inflated prices from favoured suppliers, which effectively acts as a state subsidy without calling it a state subsidy.   Many of the A brand oscilloscope companies that we know and love benefit from these programmes.

I have read a lot of economics at the University, so you do not need to explain what subsides are or how they work.

I am interested to hear from you regarding your claims that;

1. I have got false information regarding that Chinese government gives specific subsidies to Rigol for selling their scopes outside the Chines market?

2. Which of the scope manufactures in USA and Europe receives the same type of subsidies as Rigol (which you claimed, but without mention who)?


Please answer those specific questions (not telling me some gibberish lectures about general economics terms).

I think you just sound like a Trump supporting China basher, and there isn't much point in talking with you.   Have a good day Sir!

[martinot]

[...] Rigol do seems to have good hardware, and also for a much lower prices than anyone else (perhaps connection to CCP party gives the debated subsidies for Rigol to sell scopes outside of China below manufacturing prices).  [...]

You are smearing on a thick layer of propaganda here.   American and European manufacturers are also subsidised, including scope manufacturers, in various ways.

So why pick on China - is it that you psychologically need an enemy to make yourself feel better about your own life?

I did not know that USA or EU subsidies scope manufactures. Which manufactures is that get those subsidies?

The reason I am asking about the Chinese ones, was because it was informed in another Rigol-thread (by a Chinese person) that the Chinese regime gave subsidies to Rigol for selling their scope outside the China market. Do you say that information is false?

I am very much interested to know the facts (especially with all the trade wars going on, this is hot stuff).

OK.

 - First you need to know that in general, it is completely normal for incentives to be granted to any industry, especially in an area where there is unemployment.  This is done with the idea of boosting the economy in that area and, hopefully, make it self sustaining in the longer run.  It is very common for American states to compete for corporations' attention by offering various attractive sweeteners.  Of course, any company that has received a subsidy in this way, can use that money in different ways - either to run low prices to shut others out of the market, or just add to the profitability of the company.  For example, https://mexicogov.org/incentives.php

Then, there are the "hidden subsidies" that are created by government programmes such as aerospace or the military.  These branches of government typically have a LOT of money at their disposal and they disperse it to industry via tactics like buying equipment  and/or parts at inflated prices from favoured suppliers, which effectively acts as a state subsidy without calling it a state subsidy.   Many of the A brand oscilloscope companies that we know and love benefit from these programmes.

I have read a lot of economics at the University, so you do not need to explain what subsides are or how they work.

I am interested to hear from you regarding your claims that;

1. I have got false information regarding that Chinese government gives specific subsidies to Rigol for selling their scopes outside the Chines market?

2. Which of the scope manufactures in USA and Europe receives the same type of subsidies as Rigol (which you claimed, but without mention who)?


Please answer those specific questions (not telling me some gibberish lectures about general economics terms).

I think you just sound like a Trump supporting China basher, and there isn't much point in talking with you.   Have a good day Sir!

I do not like or support Trump (if that is important for the discussion, or for you to know).

What I would like to know are the facts behind your claims that what rf-loop said about Chines Rigol subsidies are not true, and your claim that you know that some brands in USA and Europe receives the same type of subsidies.

If you can not tell me that and are willing to discuss facts (your the one coming with all the personal attacks); I think you need to rethink who of use who are more "trump like".

[tautech]

I did not know that USA or EU subsidies scope manufactures. Which manufactures is that get those subsidies?

The reason I am asking about the Chinese ones, was because it was informed in another Rigol-thread (by a Chinese person) that the Chinese regime gave subsidies to Rigol for selling their scope outside the China market. Do you say that information is false?

I am very much interested to know the facts (especially with all the trade wars going on, this is hot stuff).

Finnish actually.
rf-loop goes to China most years and displays the Chinese flag while he is there.
Very experienced engineer and now retired (I believe) test equipment reseller of Finland.

You should research his many informative posts about all brands over many years.

Yes, I think that was the person who informed that Rigol got subsidies from the Chinese government for specifically selling their scopes outside the Chinese market. As you represent Siglent, is the same true for them as well?

I would expect so.

Like I posted some days ago, most jurisdictions give exporters incentives. Subsidies as you call them are the same thing.
Other industries I have worked in have all manner of subsidy, it maybe higher depreciation writeoff incentives on the purchase of new equipment, maybe lower input costs, lower power cost for example compared to domestic.

You are chasing rainbows as it is something all countries do as normal industry incentives.

[MathWizard]

I chose SDS1104X-E over similar Rigol (was considering it also) purely because of... looks. 
I know Siglent isn't a looker, but at least it doesn't look toy-like like Rigol. </rant>

More seriously, all things being more or less equal for my needs, I liked Siglent more because of 200Mhz hack and web server which allows me to make screenshots directly to PC easily. Maybe Rigol has that, too, but then again... the looks...

I did the same, got the 1104 and upped it to the 1204, I love it so far, I love one of those $10k scopes too someday, but that's a long way's off, but possible.

I've been taking screenshots of the webpage display , which is ok, but is there any difference from the button on the machine ? (which IDK where it is yet.)

[tautech]

I've been taking screenshots of the webpage display , which is ok, but is there any difference from the button on the machine ? (which IDK where it is yet.)

Blue round Print button saves directly to USB.

[tv84]

I agree. It is a very good comment and observation.

But that said, you also have to remember the opposite; at that same time as Rigol/Siglent are "normal" and affordable for you in your country (and too expensive in even poorer countries), Keysight/R&S could just as well be normal and affordable in richer countries than yours (like northern Europe countries like Germany and Scandinavia, and USA/Canada, for example).

Opposite? ?  That's not opposite. That's precisely what I said but upped 1+ level!

[martinot]

I agree. It is a very good comment and observation.

But that said, you also have to remember the opposite; at that same time as Rigol/Siglent are "normal" and affordable for you in your country (and too expensive in even poorer countries), Keysight/R&S could just as well be normal and affordable in richer countries than yours (like northern Europe countries like Germany and Scandinavia, and USA/Canada, for example).

Opposite? ?  That's not opposite. That's precisely what I said but upped 1+ level!

Not exactly; but never mind. I agree in principal with almost all that you said (good comment and observation).

[martinot]

I did not know that USA or EU subsidies scope manufactures. Which manufactures is that get those subsidies?

The reason I am asking about the Chinese ones, was because it was informed in another Rigol-thread (by a Chinese person) that the Chinese regime gave subsidies to Rigol for selling their scope outside the China market. Do you say that information is false?

I am very much interested to know the facts (especially with all the trade wars going on, this is hot stuff).

Finnish actually.
rf-loop goes to China most years and displays the Chinese flag while he is there.
Very experienced engineer and now retired (I believe) test equipment reseller of Finland.

You should research his many informative posts about all brands over many years.

Yes, I think that was the person who informed that Rigol got subsidies from the Chinese government for specifically selling their scopes outside the Chinese market. As you represent Siglent, is the same true for them as well?

I would expect so.

Like I posted some days ago, most jurisdictions give exporters incentives. Subsidies as you call them are the same thing.
Other industries I have worked in have all manner of subsidy, it maybe higher depreciation writeoff incentives on the purchase of new equipment, maybe lower input costs, lower power cost for example compared to domestic.

You are chasing rainbows as it is something all countries do as normal industry incentives.

You try to talk gibberish as usual - to try to fog the subject in question (I understand that it might not be so comfortable for you).

I am exactly referencing to what Chinese person claimed as fact that Chinese Government/CCP gave special targeted subsidies for each scope that Rigol sold specifically outside the Chinese market.

I have said it many times, but the totally dishonest person you are - you seem to "forget" things like that, and avoid the topic by answering with gibberish and personal attacks.

Way to go Siglent - you have so "professional" sales people - should be proud of how they behave. 

[Simon]

Can we stop the politics, NOW?!

[neon416]

Hi, it's time for a new 200 MHz oscillosope and I have a serious question, that is, I really don't know.
Why would I consider other brands than Rigol, if Rigol is good, time proven, and cheap?
Why woult it be worth to pay more to get a Rohde&Schwarz, GW Instek or something like that?

Because while you can buy MSO5074 for $999 and get 500+Mhz bandwidth for 4 channels by simple software "patch"- your need not something else)

[Fungus]

Yep. Siglent hasn't had a single firmware update since release. That thing about mailing little packets of capacitors to people so they could solder them to the motherboard to fix things? We must have dreamed it...

Missed that one. What was up with the capacitors??

They forgot a few of them on the first production runs.

To solve the problem they posted little bags of them to people who complained.

Where we as customers supposed to fix some new scopes

Yes.

[MichalPL]

OK, guys. I have 2 candidates left and that's final, I believe. I have to choose among the 2 of them.

Keysight DSOX1202A for $950. 70 MHz upgradeable/hackable to 200 MHz
Rohde&Schwarz RTB2002 70 MHz upgradeable (hackable???) to 300 MHz, 10 bit for $1700.

Contrary to what some of you thought, stating that "if you have to ask, you're a noob", I just don't quite have the time to go through all the specs and I need opinion of people actually using these scopes for real work, whose input far exceeds what can be read in datasheets. For instance, one guy here is pushing GW Instek. That's true, it's a decent company but I bought their function generator and I quickly returned it and took a cheaper Rigol instead because it was way better both in specs and actual behaviour. So I need practical advice, not specs bragging.

I'll use it for various things while designing industrial electronics, and I work both with microcontrollers in the digital domain, and also take a lot of analogue measurements, such as precise measurements of low currents, which makes me think 10-bit or better resolution may be the right way to go.

[MichalPL]

OK, I've just read that SPI and other decoding options are bought separately, which renders the R&S way too pricey for me.

[nctnico]

For instance, one guy here is pushing GW Instek. That's true, it's a decent company but I bought their function generator and I quickly returned it and took a cheaper Rigol instead because it was way better both in specs and actual behaviour. So I need practical advice, not specs bragging.

I guess you mean me. I have returned the GW Instek function generator as well. I still have & use the GW Instek oscilloscope though; my advise is from experience. 

[TimNJ]

Keysight DSOX1202A for $950. 70 MHz upgradeable/hackable to 200 MHz
Rohde&Schwarz RTB2002 70 MHz upgradeable (hackable???) to 300 MHz, 10 bit for $1700.

If you can live with the 2Mpts limit, go for the Keysight. It's super fluid UI will save you a lot of swearing.

I've not used any R&S, but from my experience with Tek and Rigol, both make devices with slower UI. If you are like me that is angry towards everything, you'd certainly want a Keysight.

100%. My ex-boss couldn't say no to the price-tag on Rigol DS1104Z, so he bought two to replace our aging Tek TDS2000 scopes. Blood pressure through the roof working with that thing.

Then we bought a Siglent SDS2104X. So much better. Still hangs occaisionally with a lot of memory points, but better than the Rigol. I have GWInstek GDS2204E at home. Of the 3 scopes, it's UI is definitely the fastest and most responsive. Well worth the money, to me. Other people might not care!

[tchiwam]

If you don't play with complex numbers, convolution kernels, doppler and phase coding, and/or <25ps jitter you don't need the big names.

If you play with these, then you will buy the tool that does only that job and probably have a cheap scope and a not so cheap scope.

[0culus]

If you're buying for professional use, yes you do. It's very much akin to the old aphorism "Nobody got fired for buying IBM". And the big names offer very good support that you really should have if you're using your test equipment to make money. Otherwise, for hobbyists just wanting a working scope, Rigol/Siglent/what have you can provide serious bang per buck as long as you do your research and figure out what meets your needs.

[bdunham7]

If you're buying for professional use, yes you do. It's very much akin to the old aphorism "Nobody got fired for buying IBM". And the big names offer very good support that you really should have if you're using your test equipment to make money. Otherwise, for hobbyists just wanting a working scope, Rigol/Siglent/what have you can provide serious bang per buck as long as you do your research and figure out what meets your needs.

But do you need 'bang for the buck'?  Or do you need a responsive, easy-to-use intuitive tool that achieves what you need as easily as possible?  How many people that are up-hacking their scopes to 350MHz ever actually view a signal at 350MHz, perhaps other than their signal generator?  I suspect that higher-quality tools are even more appropriate for occasional users that don't want to relearn the non-intuitive quirks of their bargain scope every time they pull it out to use it.

[0culus]

If you're buying for professional use, yes you do. It's very much akin to the old aphorism "Nobody got fired for buying IBM". And the big names offer very good support that you really should have if you're using your test equipment to make money. Otherwise, for hobbyists just wanting a working scope, Rigol/Siglent/what have you can provide serious bang per buck as long as you do your research and figure out what meets your needs.

But do you need 'bang for the buck'?  Or do you need a responsive, easy-to-use intuitive tool that achieves what you need as easily as possible?  How many people that are up-hacking their scopes to 350MHz ever actually view a signal at 350MHz, perhaps other than their signal generator?  I suspect that higher-quality tools are even more appropriate for occasional users that don't want to relearn the non-intuitive quirks of their bargain scope every time they pull it out to use it.

Yes. If you have (1) budget for it or (2) are willing to work with old stuff. I'd say the vast majority of the folks who come on here wanting oscilloscope advice are beginners who have budgets no more than $500 (and that is probably already on the upper tail of the normal distribution). Vanishingly few people come here and say "I can spend $15,000+ on an oscilloscope, help me choose". The folks that can afford that for a hobby lab probably don't need to ask on a forum anyway.

As for hacking bandwidth...why not? Maybe they want to work with faster digital circuits, in which case having more bandwidth is quite useful for seeing your signal integrity.

I actually do not own a digital scope unless you count the two Data Precision digitizers I have. I use DSO/MSO professionally though. I choose to use analog CROs (I am up to five now; Tek 7104, 7904A, 585A, 2465B, HP 1727A) for my hobby work, and they do 99% of what I need on a day to day basis. I also enjoy troubleshooting and repairing old test equipment. Not everyone does, I get that. But all of mine were top of the line, high dollar items when they were new, and they all work great to this day.

[bdunham7]

I choose to use analog CROs (I am up to five now; Tek 7104, 7904A, 585A, 2465B, HP 1727A) for my hobby work

I think that's probably not exactly correct.  I think analog CRO's are your hobby.  I recognize the symptoms. 

[0culus]

I choose to use analog CROs (I am up to five now; Tek 7104, 7904A, 585A, 2465B, HP 1727A) for my hobby work

I think that's probably not exactly correct.  I think analog CRO's are your hobby.  I recognize the symptoms. 

Well yes, but I use them too. 

[Sal Ammoniac]

Some of this reminds me of the audiophools who spend tens of thousands on stereo equipment and only listen to test recordings.

[b_force]

Some of this reminds me of the audiophools who spend tens of thousands on stereo equipment and only listen to test recordings.

LOL!
Well, not so far off, CONTEXT people!
How much do you actually need on a regular basis?
Yes, from a professional level I get you need more, but for most things???

It's the same problem why people want fancy cars, computers and sofa's.

[bdunham7]

If your number 1 reason is an oscilloscope with a toy look, then you can go for GW-Instek

For sure, I need stable and bug free firmware.

Well, there is your number 1 reason not to choose for Rigol. 

I was going to say that you are exaggerating but then.... yikes

That's a terrible layout. The screen looks so small and cramped while the controls are so spaced apart. It looks bizarre

Given that modern scopes have added so much more information on their screens compared to traditional models, it is outright ridiculous that they attempt to keep the same screen size as the old ones.  Any modern scope should have the biggest screen that reasonably fits the front panel - anything less is simply not good enough!

I'm not a GW fan or salesman, but I think you guys are overlooking a lot of utility and worrying about the color scheme a bit too much.  On the face of it, the scope looks excellent to me as a daily driver, although I haven't tried one.

First, the colors in your photo are a bit too vivid.  https://www.tequipment.net/Instek/Instek-GDS-3354-Oscilloscope/?gclid=CjwKCAjwm_P5BRAhEiwAwRzSO2n1qrWyB3HE8F2F3vj5Q5phi84HjPyKtGaczi7VrPJm8qA5kG3a9RoC57oQAvD_BwE

Second, the screen is listed as 8 inches, that isn't all that small.  In fact it is larger than any scope I currently have.  I'm guessing the scope itself is a bit bigger than some.

Third, again without commenting on how well it works, the inclusion of 50R, 75R and 1M input impedances, ETS, split-screen function, probe power/sensing, individual channel controls, a separate external trigger and an external monitor connection are the things I would be discussing, not whether it clashes with my carpet.

[MichalPL]

Guys, just to let you know that today I've finally ordered the ultimate solution to my needs, I believe. Thank you all for your input. I bought Rohde&Schwarz RTC1002-COM2. A promo bundle with 300 MHz and all the options including a logic probe for $1700.