Author Topic: Scope Wars  (Read 62123 times)

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Online nctnico

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Re: Scope Wars
« Reply #500 on: July 07, 2020, 05:31:55 pm »
This argument is all based on a 1950's use case for an analog scope testing for over modulation of an AM transmitter.  It is *so* last century.  A DSO should provide a spectrum analysis mode for this use case.
You are missing the point completely. The AM modulated signal is just easy to show the effect of filtering & peak detect when you are looking at a signal which has both low and high frequency content. Not how to analyse an AM signal. Who is using AM nowadays anyway?
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline 0culus

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Re: Scope Wars
« Reply #501 on: July 07, 2020, 06:02:04 pm »
This argument is all based on a 1950's use case for an analog scope testing for over modulation of an AM transmitter.  It is *so* last century.  A DSO should provide a spectrum analysis mode for this use case.
You are missing the point completely. The AM modulated signal is just easy to show the effect of filtering & peak detect when you are looking at a signal which has both low and high frequency content. Not how to analyse an AM signal. Who is using AM nowadays anyway?

My local radio market has a very active AM band. Still got some 50 kW stations on the air.

It is unlikely, however, that anyone is doing groundbreaking research or anything.
 

Offline tomato

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Re: Scope Wars
« Reply #502 on: July 07, 2020, 06:24:59 pm »
I thought Elvis had left the building?
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Scope Wars
« Reply #503 on: July 07, 2020, 06:27:53 pm »

This argument is all based on a 1950's use case for an analog scope testing for over modulation of an AM transmitter.  It is *so* last century.  A DSO should provide a spectrum analysis mode for this use case.

When you see spurious side bands the modulation is too high.  Besides, very few people have a need to test the modulation of an AM transmitter in 2020 other than broadcast engineers who will be well equipped for the task

Have Fun!
Reg

AM modulated signal was simplest signal to explain that points to the problem.
Since you seem not to have answer to that, let's try something from this century.
How about switching power supply, 1 MHz switching frequency, responding to a load pulse from zero to max load and back, 200 ms cycle. What would you see on a output mosfet gate?

And list goes on.

You can have a system that uses sensors that gathers some useful signal and some noise, and than massaging data to extract only portion that is interesting to you.. Like crankshaft sensor, where we take some pulses and noise and extract pulses that we count to extract frequency /RPM. Here we try to discard as much of sampled data and keep only data that gains us RPM info.
These are types of system you worked on your whole life, just yours were insanely more complex and sophisticated.

If we connect scope to that sensor, we want  to see signal coming from sensor with all of the crap. All of it. No filtering and such. We use scope not to extract RPM data, but to verify sensor signal, including noise level, and we are doing it in time domain, correlating it to other sensor edges etc.. If there is noise, we want to see it all. And correlate sources in time domain, i.e. temporal correlation.

Make note that in this context word noise is used for all spurious and unwanted signal injected into system from any source in addition to wanted signal.

We might want to analyse noise for it's spectra and distribution, if noise is persistent (cannot be temporally correlated to known source) so we might try to find it's source that way. This is where we use histograms and spectrograms and what not. Here, your expertise is pure gold, and these are thing nowadays only high end scopes have,each to different extent. Some less expensive scopes are starting to have histograms, but like FFT, if control is limited, it has very limited usability.

If someone is capable of adding features of high end LeCroy to inexpensive scope I'm all for it.
But you cannot break how scope works. You have to keep what is perfect the way it is and add to it.

I believe few years ago I gave you advice to get yourself a Picoscope. They are perfect for you. They have all hardware things sorted out and nice ready made API. So you just grab a chunk of data and start analysing. You could make software for it that puts LeCroy to shame. Hell, if you would make it good I would pay for it...

 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: Scope Wars
« Reply #504 on: July 07, 2020, 06:39:15 pm »
Good grief, his Holiness of un-quantifiable epic knowledge of digital signal processing and quasi quantum mechanics,  has re-graced us with his wondrous presence sporting a more than smattering resplendent intelligence of all matters of oscilloscope design and critique.

Reg, we bow down in the presence of your awesome magnitude of mathematical equatia (yes Reg deserves his own unique words reflecting his total omnipotence of majestic ADC design and uber low noise front ends)We sir at at the ready to deliver your every poise, word and utterance as pure gospel.

Forgive us oh master of the signal processing universe, may our spaces between the one and noughts be as relevant as the data carrying bits themselves. Oh Reg we are not worthy please forgive our sins against the father of mystical data transmission lanes of omi-presence.   
Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Scope Wars
« Reply #505 on: July 07, 2020, 06:43:29 pm »
Let's keep playing the ball please.  8)

Maybe at some point we'll end up with a nice Python script which shows us the characteristic  in a graph (phase, frequency, group delay) of an oscilloscope using a CSV dump from acquiring an impulse response. That does seem usefull to me. Bonus points if the CSV parser can deal with all (most) oscilloscopes out of the box (IOW: cutting off the headers automatically).
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 06:45:07 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Scope Wars
« Reply #506 on: July 07, 2020, 07:05:55 pm »
Good grief, his Holiness of un-quantifiable epic knowledge of digital signal processing and quasi quantum mechanics,  has re-graced us with his wondrous presence sporting a more than smattering resplendent intelligence of all matters of oscilloscope design and critique.

Reg, we bow down in the presence of your awesome magnitude of mathematical equatia (yes Reg deserves his own unique words reflecting his total omnipotence of majestic ADC design and uber low noise front ends)We sir at at the ready to deliver your every poise, word and utterance as pure gospel.

Forgive us oh master of the signal processing universe, may our spaces between the one and noughts be as relevant as the data carrying bits themselves. Oh Reg we are not worthy please forgive our sins against the father of mystical data transmission lanes of omi-presence.   
^-^
 

Offline tomato

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Re: Scope Wars
« Reply #507 on: July 07, 2020, 07:16:10 pm »
Good grief, his Holiness of un-quantifiable epic knowledge of digital signal processing and quasi quantum mechanics,  has re-graced us with his wondrous presence sporting a more than smattering resplendent intelligence of all matters of oscilloscope design and critique.

Reg, we bow down in the presence of your awesome magnitude of mathematical equatia (yes Reg deserves his own unique words reflecting his total omnipotence of majestic ADC design and uber low noise front ends)We sir at at the ready to deliver your every poise, word and utterance as pure gospel.

Forgive us oh master of the signal processing universe, may our spaces between the one and noughts be as relevant as the data carrying bits themselves. Oh Reg we are not worthy please forgive our sins against the father of mystical data transmission lanes of omi-presence.   
I always liked British humor humour.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Scope Wars
« Reply #508 on: July 07, 2020, 08:36:58 pm »
Let's keep playing the ball please.  8)

Maybe at some point we'll end up with a nice Python script which shows us the characteristic  in a graph (phase, frequency, group delay) of an oscilloscope using a CSV dump from acquiring an impulse response. That does seem usefull to me. Bonus points if the CSV parser can deal with all (most) oscilloscopes out of the box (IOW: cutting off the headers automatically).

There is plenty of scope [haha] for analyzing how a particular oscilloscope actually performs, how much its specifications can be trusted, if there is any headroom in the design, etc.

I don't think anyone would disagree that a scope that doesn't live up to its specifications does not reflect well on the manufacturer.
 

Offline egonotto

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Re: Scope Wars
« Reply #509 on: July 29, 2020, 11:14:04 pm »
Is war over? Who wins?
 

Offline Tomorokoshi

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Re: Scope Wars
« Reply #510 on: July 30, 2020, 01:25:09 am »
Is war over? Who wins?

Everyone is still armed.

Just waiting for a trigger to start it again.

Then it will sweep over everything.

And we will have an image of the situation.

What will be our response?
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Scope Wars
« Reply #511 on: July 30, 2020, 05:19:26 am »
Is war over? Who wins?

The people who make the 'scopes.

Apparently they know more about applying the math than the theorists do.
 
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