SALEAE prices ...

[wasedadoc]

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/fssaleae-logic-16-gen-1/?topicseen

Unknown poster's nationality ... 

When someone posts a dollar price without specifying which country's dollar it is a fairly safe assumption that the poster in in that big country where parochial minds are more common than elsewhere. 

[alm]

I do not agree, the old application offered a lot less and the cost of the devices that they were selling over one hundred dollars was a fraction of that, with the "old"  component cost i see a decent margin.

If you think the cost of a hardware + software product should just be function of the BOM cost, then I have a bridge to sell to you. The price of the bridge will obviously be purely based on the price of concrete and steel.

Said that, if you have a catalog of devices starting from 100 USD and suddenly you step 5X, well, you cannot expect to maintain the previous customer base.

Well, then they must have found a new customer base or they would have gone bankrupt by now. I don't see how this concerns you, though, unless your concern is if the company is going to go bankrupt. Either $500 solves a problem for you that's worth at least $500 to solve it over the time you plan to use their device, it does not solve a problem for you, or it does solve a problem but this is not worth $500 to you, for example because you have a cheaper solution or maybe the problem isn't that important to solve. Dreaming about how it would have been better if you bought their product years ago isn't going to help your business.

For instance, take the Logic 8, 8bits @ 100MS/s on USB 2.0 interface plus gimmick analog section : 500 USD ... come on.

I suggest to buy a competing device then, if you think $500 is so excessive for the value they offer. But somehow you seem to spend more energy complaining about Saleae's prices than trying demos of competing products like Digilent Waveforms (software for the Digital Discovery).

[DavidAlfa]

Probably coming from a country that made this:



Don't take those 100MSPS that easily, it heavily depends on the number of channels:

1-3   100MSps
4-6   50MSps
7      40MSps
8      25MSps

The Logic 8 pro is way faster:
1-6   500MSps
7-8   250MSps

And the Logic 16 Gen 1 does:
1-8   25MSps
9-16 16MSps

[thm_w]

dslogic should be able to trigger on byte sequence

https://www.dreamsourcelab.com/product/dslogic-series/
https://www.dreamsourcelab.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/protocol-trig-en.png

[markone]

If you think the cost of a hardware + software product should just be function of the BOM cost, then I have a bridge to sell to you. The price of the bridge will obviously be purely based on the price of concrete and steel.

Not an expert but i guess that the balance between manpower / material cost for a bridge is quite far from a small USB dongle and a single SW application under development for years, as i already told if the same scheme were applied to all electronic instruments they would cost 5 times as much than we pay right now.

Do you think that a single Logic SW license is worth, let's say, 300-400 USD ?
If so, other application software that we pay hundreds should cost millions.

Version 1.x was nothing special, now is starting to be something more productive thanks also to the costless contribution of the customer community.

I suggest to buy a competing device then, if you think $500 is so excessive for the value they offer.

I'm in good company about this feeling.

But somehow you seem to spend more energy complaining about Saleae's prices than trying demos of competing products like Digilent Waveforms (software for the Digital Discovery).

Yes, there is some energy loss replying to whom is trying to justify those "reap off" prices, for the rest i got some useful hints that i'm investigating in my spare time and yes, Digital Discovery is on top of the list, from what I've seen so far it seems to be worth every penny it costs (about 250 euro from Amazon in EU) for those has some time to spend around it.

[markone]

dslogic should be able to trigger on byte sequence

https://www.dreamsourcelab.com/product/dslogic-series/
https://www.dreamsourcelab.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/protocol-trig-en.png

Thank you very much for the hint, their product seems to have a very honest price / performance ratio, i'm wondering if exist an EU reseller.

Do you have some experience with their tools ? As far as i understood their application started as a fork of Sigrok Pulseview but at a some point they started to crash with the community.

[thm_w]

Yeah I use dslogic plus with either their own DSView or Sigrok software, both work. I bought straight from china (aliexpress).

https://sigrok.org/wiki/DreamSourceLab_DSLogic
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/usb-logic-analyzer-whats-the-current-favorite-for-~150$/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/choosing-a-logic-analyzer-dslogic-vs-saleae-vs-asix-sigma-2/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/usb-logic-analyzer-recommendation/

https://github.com/DreamSourceLab/DSView

[markone]

Yeah I use dslogic plus with either their own DSView or Sigrok software, both work. I bought straight from china (aliexpress).

https://sigrok.org/wiki/DreamSourceLab_DSLogic
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/usb-logic-analyzer-whats-the-current-favorite-for-~150$/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/choosing-a-logic-analyzer-dslogic-vs-saleae-vs-asix-sigma-2/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/usb-logic-analyzer-recommendation/
https://github.com/DreamSourceLab/DSView

What does DSView offer more respect Pulseview  ?

I played a little with the latter but i never saw DSView in action, time to find something on youtube.

[DavidAlfa]

You can buy the Chinesium basic version ($80) and upgrade it to Plus by replacing the SDRAM ($2) and modifying the USB ID in the eeprom.
More here.
Though for professional use, it's just $149, I wouldn't bother.
Offers a lot more for 1/3 of the Saleae Logic 8 price.
Software is OpenSource, I wonder why it's not been modified yet to work with the cheap Saleae clones.

[mwb1100]

Software is OpenSource, I wonder why it's not been modified yet to work with the cheap Saleae clones.

That is discussed in OpenTechLab's video on the DSLogic starting at about 27 minutes in:

Now, some of you might be wondering whether it would be possible for these features to be integrated back into sigrok given that this is all open source software.  And the answer is that in principle yes, it would be possible, and it would be great if these features could be ported over.  The only issue is that for one thing the code quality isn't quite up to what it needs to be to go into sigrok. And by that, I mean that for the most part they've focused on the needs of the DSLogic device.  Whereas for patches to go into sigrok, they need to be able to support *any* logic analyzer device, and support them properly.  And so, in a way it's easier for the DSLogic guys to add features to their GUI because they only have one device to focus on. 

...

And added to which in economic terms, sometimes it's just not a priority for the team [the DSLogic team] to focus on trying to get their patches upstream.

[markone]

You can buy the Chinesium basic version ($80) and upgrade it to Plus by replacing the SDRAM ($2) and modifying the USB ID in the eeprom.
More here.
Though for professional use, it's just $149, I wouldn't bother.
Offers a lot more for 1/3 of the Saleae Logic 8 price.
Software is OpenSource, I wonder why it's not been modified yet to work with the cheap Saleae clones.

I totally agree, the only annoyance is that our custom service together courier's custom office enjoy charging as much as they can, so a shipping with an invoice of  150 USD cost become easily 230 adding VAT (22%), import fee (10%) and fixed import fee, normally not less than 30-50 euros.

If the seller tricks the invoice is even worst, because when custom office see doubtful numbers then ask for payment proof and then slap your face with a greater  import fee and longer delivery time.

This is exactly what happens, for sure, if you import something from abroad using an express courier, things goes in a different way if you make use of a registered postal service, but it takes ages, this is the reason why i stopped to import directly thing from USA and China, apart small things from ebay / aliexpress with postal service (delivery time 30-60 days...).

So usually it is preferable to pay more in first place with an EU reseller and get some support if shit happens, but it seems that DreamSourceLab does not have one  for Europe.

In the mean time i downloaded DSview for windows but advanced triggering menu does not work in demo mode, the program says it requires Dslogic Hardware support, the menu itself is grayed out and serial trigger options are not visible.

[DavidAlfa]

There must be some european distributors.
Found one here:
https://multi-com.eu/,details,id_pr,22645,key,dslogic-plus-usb-based-logic-analyzer.html

If imports are really causing so much trouble, the get the basic and upgrade it.
Not sure in Italy, in Spain we pay 21% VAT for everything, then an additional ~30€ fee for >150€ imports.
Edit: Italy is pretty much the same:

22% di IVA.
Oneri e spese di sdoganamento:
- 2€, se il valore della merce è sotto i 22 euro;
- 5€, se il valore dell’oggetto è tra 22,01 – 1000 euro;
- 15€, per merci con valore superiore ai 1000 euro

However the bas**ds include the shipping costs, so you're screwed up easily.
Perhabs you could ask them to make different invoices, so you pay for the product in one and the shipping in the other.
If you get asked, show the PayPal invoice: "product: 149.99".

Anyways, even 200-250€ is still much better deal than the $500 Saleae basic.

[markone]

There must be some european distributors.
Found one here:
https://multi-com.eu/,details,id_pr,22645,key,dslogic-plus-usb-based-logic-analyzer.html

Great, thank you, i will look further later.

About import cost, i dropped the ball many years ago because the theory is never applied, especially with UPS, FEDEX, DHL, a starting price of 100, shipping included, in practice is never less than 150 and could become easily 170 because they can add additional charges and you can do nothing.

As i told, the only alternative is to order with, at least, registered postal service but timing and reliability are totally different and in any case if you get a faulty device your are screwed.

[voltsandjolts]

As far as i understood their application started as a fork of Sigrok Pulseview but at a some point they started to crash with the community.

DSLogic guys are a bunch of thieving knobs who used a Kickstarter and the open source vibe for their own commercial benefit, without actually being open.

When they started up, they stole the open source GPL licensed PulseView GUI from the sigrok project. Made their own changes to it as needed for their analyser and declined to openly publish their source code as required by the license. They made some token gesture to publish on github but AFAIK there were significant disparities between that repo and their shipped binary. The github repo still exists but I would still be extremely skeptical that it reflects the current binary. The original PulseView developer discusses this situation here.

[markone]

As far as i understood their application started as a fork of Sigrok Pulseview but at a some point they started to crash with the community.

DSLogic guys are a bunch of thieving knobs who used a Kickstarter and the open source vibe for their own commercial benefit, without actually being open.

When they started up, they stole the open source GPL licensed PulseView GUI from the sigrok project. Made their own changes to it as needed for their analyser and declined to openly publish their source code as required by the license. They made some token gesture to publish on github but AFAIK there were significant disparities between that repo and their shipped binary. The github repo still exists but I would still be extremely skeptical that it reflects the current binary. The original PulseView developer discusses this situation here.

Not the first time that i ear something like that, are they based in China ?

[markone]

There must be some european distributors.
Found one here:
https://multi-com.eu/,details,id_pr,22645,key,dslogic-plus-usb-based-logic-analyzer.html

Just looked at their webshop, finalized price with VAT and TNT shipping is around 210 Euro, i would say it's doable, it remain to be seen if it actually works as expected (trigger on byte sequence out of serial decoder).

[DavidAlfa]

You'd be surprised about how many devices use GPL code while not compiling the license terms.
Just the starting: Almost anything connected to the internet.
The guys at Dreamlab simply forgot to delete some references to sigrok, otherwise it would have been extremely hard to demonstrate it.
Wouldn't call it evil, pretty much the standard nowadays, every big company earns millions using gpl code and doesn't donate s** to their creators, showing absolute lack of gratitute.

[voltsandjolts]

You'd be surprised about how many devices use GPL code while not compiling the license terms.
Just the starting: Almost anything connected to the internet.
The guys at Dreamlab simply forgot to delete some references to sigrok, otherwise it would have been extremely hard to demonstrate it.
Wouldn't call it evil, pretty much the standard nowadays, every big company earns millions using gpl code and doesn't donate s** to their creators, showing absolute lack of gratitute.

This is a very inept response. Many people ignore copyright law but that doesn't make it acceptable. Also, people who use code in accordance with the license may not be obligated to pay anything - as per most open source licenses. This was the choice of the code author.

[markone]

You'd be surprised about how many devices use GPL code while not compiling the license terms.
Just the starting: Almost anything connected to the internet.
The guys at Dreamlab simply forgot to delete some references to sigrok, otherwise it would have been extremely hard to demonstrate it.
Wouldn't call it evil, pretty much the standard nowadays, every big company earns millions using gpl code and doesn't donate s** to their creators, showing absolute lack of gratitute.

This is a very inept response. Many people ignore copyright law but that doesn't make it acceptable. Also, people who use code in accordance with the license may not be obligated to pay anything - as per most open source licenses. This was the choice of the code author.

Yep, you are right in principle but i can confirm what DavidAlfa wisely said, there is a huge number of commercial devices that do make use of GPL cod buried inside their binaries, i can assure you that there are some "notorious" brand among their producers.

If you look at what China did in the last decades see a countless number of (actual) patent infringements, so try to figure out what they think about GPL code     

[DavidAlfa]

Inept? I'm not defending them at all, I'm just saying, there's a 99.9% probability the router you're using to surf this site right now is using some sort of GPL, or the LTE antena, or any network node in-between, and for sure lots are violating the GPL.
So it's not " thieves at Dreamlab", like they were the most evils psychopaths in the world, it's almost everyone out there doing the same thing.
But they did the correct at the end, lots of companies just ignore these things.
Several people compiled the program and apparently it's the same thing, also their repo is pretty active.
A lot of companies also do some dirty tricks, like releasing the code only for the initial version (Bugged as hell), then the program evolves: 1.01, 1.02... but these changes are never published.

Never fully undertsood GPL, the ideology of free sharing is nice, but also like shooting yourself at the same time, giving away all your work for free, then let others make millions with it.

From my point of view, a much better aproach is Unreal Engine terms: After it generated $1 million USD in gross revenue, start paying 5% of your income.
So, you can use it for free for non-comercial purposes or low-revenue projects.

Of course, I'm not saying to pay 5% to every GPL code you use, but man, if you're drowning in money, show some gratitude!

Do you remember this?
https://www.businessinsider.com/developer-sabotages-open-source-github-code-libraries-protest-corporations-2022-1

Github blocked the creator from accessing his own repo. What??
It's MY code. If you don't like it, block the repo from the rest of the world, but you don't have any right to remove my access to it.

[voltsandjolts]

David's rant attempting to shore up his support for DSLogic by saying that IP theft is OK because it's so common. Obviously he is right that it's very common. I do not agree with anyone who says that makes it OK, and its particularly jarring to see engineers jumping on that bandwagon to save a few bucks.

There are lots of cheap goods from China that are 'good value' because they had significantly reduced development expense.

Enjoy your bargain DSLogic

[This is OT so I'll stop here]

[DavidAlfa]

Hate people trying to put words in my mouth I never said, not even close, you really don't want to take that route.

[sokoloff]

Github blocked the creator from accessing his own repo. What??
It's MY code. If you don't like it, block the repo from the rest of the world, but you don't have any right to remove my access to it.

It's your code and you're free to go host it anywhere that agrees to host it for you.

If someplace doesn't agree to host it, they're under no obligation to do so. If they initially agree and then you act in a manner that causes them to decide to no longer offer you service, they are free to revoke it. At 1 nano-second after that decision, they are also free to host the software under terms that comply with the license.

This is not just the legally defensible position (which I think it obviously is), but is also ethically defensible IMO. If you want to take your ball and go home, you're free to do so with all future changes. If you agreed to license the existing ball under GPL, there's no ethically defensible reason (IMO) to support the retroactive revocation of that.

[DavidAlfa]

Not talking about the right to keep hosting it.
If you don't want to keep hosting it, that's ok!
But blocking the creator while still keeping the code... Nope!

[Zucca]

Interesting discussion, sorry for cross posting here, but it is kind related.

https://www.picotech.com/support/topic40355.html

It shows what Picoscope developers are thinking about the trigger in serial stuff....