Rigol's New DHO800 Oscilloscope unbox & teardown

[ebastler]

These "indicators" move around automatically to show you where the measurement functions are getting their numbers from.

Known in the industry as Tracking Cursors.

Now you got me confused...

I thought Tracking Cursors follow f(X) along the trace itself (or a math function), where X is given by the manually adjusted position of the X cursor?

In contrast, Rigol's "Indicators" show where on the trace an automatic measurement is taken, say a period duration or Vmax/Vmin values. I believe 2N3055 had stated earlier that these are known as Measurement Cursors on some other scopes?

[tautech]

 
There are many ways measurements can be user specified.
Tracking XY cursors
Gated measurements
Statistics: Min, Max, Avg, Std Dev
Etc

All accepted in the industry without need to reinvent the wheel.

[ebastler]

There are many ways measurements can be user specified.
Tracking XY cursors
Gated measurements
Statistics: Min, Max, Avg, Std Dev
Etc

All accepted in the industry without need to reinvent the wheel.

Yes, I am aware of all these. But what does this have to do with the terminology question I asked?

[Martin72]

I believe 2N3055 had stated earlier that these are known as Measurement Cursors on some other scopes?

At the DHO, they are also called that.
In manual mode, you place the cursors where you want them and read the result.
In track mode, you can, for example, track X, i.e. move and Y is guided and displays the corresponding position value, or track Y and X is guided and displays the corresponding value.
As well as the combination of X and Y.
I personally like the manual function, the other confuses me.
At work, I like to use a previously set measurement window, which I can then move horizontally, e.g. for the evaluation of a load jump.
I have not yet found this gate function in the rigol, which is available in lecroy and siglent separately identified (measurement gate: Normal across the entire width of the screen as the default setting, but you can also set the window manually).

[ebastler]

Lately I seem to struggle to express my thoughts or questions clearly.
That, or you guys are all very sloppy readers. 

In manual mode, you place the cursors where you want them and read the result.

Got that. Let's call these "manual cursors". That's what the Rigol dialog seems to call them, and how 2N3055 called them too. OK?

In track mode, you can, for example, track X, i.e. move and Y is guided and displays the corresponding position value, or track Y and X is guided and displays the corresponding value.
As well as the combination of X and Y.

Yep. That's what I tried to describe in my earlier post, and what everybody seems to agree are called "tracking cursors". (Except for Tautech, who used that term for something else, namely the type of cursors mentioned down at the end of this post.)

At work, I like to use a previously set measurement window, which I can then move horizontally, e.g. for the evaluation of a load jump.
I have not yet found this gate function in the rigol, which is available in lecroy and siglent separately identified (measurement gate: Normal across the entire width of the screen as the default setting, but you can also set the window manually).

"Gated measurements", at least in Keysight terminology, right? I don't think the Rigol DHO has these.

So, now for my question again:

How does "the industry" call those lines which indicate where an automatic measurement, like a risetime, period or such, is being taken by the scope? "Indicators" in Rigol terminology. Are these "measurement cursors" elsewhere? Or which other term is the "industry standard" for these?

[Martin72]

How does "the industry" call those lines which indicate where an automatic measurement, like a risetime, period or such, is being taken by the scope? "Indicators" in Rigol terminology. Are these "measurement cursors" elsewhere? Or which other term is the "industry standard" for these?

You didn't formulate your question like this before, so the sloppiness of the others is not applicable...
Now at least I know what you mean, let me think about what that is called, it has nothing to do with cursors, at least I know that right now.

[ebastler]

You didn't formulate your question like this before, so the sloppiness of the others is not applicable...
Now at least I know what you mean, let me think about what that is called, it has nothing to do with cursors, at least I know that right now.

Apparently I am struggling with the wording -- I still can't see where my earlier attempt, in response to tautech's claim that these were "tracking cursors", was lacking?

Now you got me confused...

I thought Tracking Cursors follow f(X) along the trace itself (or a math function), where X is given by the manually adjusted position of the X cursor?

In contrast, Rigol's "Indicators" show where on the trace an automatic measurement is taken, say a period duration or Vmax/Vmin values. I believe 2N3055 had stated earlier that these are known as Measurement Cursors on some other scopes?

Anyway, thanks for looking into it. I just came across a Keysight video where these indicators (in Rigol-speak) were called "markers". Is that it? -- Edit: Probably not. At least, "markers" seem to be a much broader concept in Keysight's terminology.

[2N3055]

I used term "measurements cursor". Cursors connected with automatic measurements.

They are sort of reverse of using manual cursors and have scope calculate some parameters from cursor position.
So you have automatic measurements that point where the cursors would be if you were using manual cursors.
This is to show you what automatic measurement is actually measuring.

There are also gating cursors or gates, they are used to limit measurement to just a part of waveform.

[ebastler]

I used term "measurements cursor". Cursors connected with automatic measurements.

Yes, that's what I remember, and what made sense to me.

But then tautech, with a lot of conviction and a big grin, stated that they were called "tracking cursors" -- which I believed I know to be something else, and which you had also explained to be different from measurement cursors. Four people thanked him for that, yourself included I believe.

And now Martin72 says that these "automatic measurement indicators" are not called cursors at all, but something else entirely; research ongoing.

It's complicated... I will forgive Rigol for calling them "indicators". 

[Martin72]

Edit: Probably not. At least, "markers" seem to be a much broader concept in Keysight's terminology.

Siglent calls it "Thresholds", LeCroy "Level", whereas with lecroy you can still set a kind of hysteresis.
I would only change the preset values if the measurement result seems implausible.
Most of the time it fits.

[asmi]

But then tautech, with a lot of conviction and a big grin, stated that they were called "tracking cursors" -- which I believed I know to be something else, and which you had also explained to be different from measurement cursors.

He didn't say what industry he meant. You can take a guess as to what it is

Four people thanked him for that, yourself included I believe.

They always thank each other's posts.

[ebastler]

Before I get into this, please let me stress that this is not about "stirring the pot" or whatever. I genuinely want to make sure I understand the common terminology, such that I don't confuse others when talking about oscilloscope features and usage.

I read the manuals for the Siglent SDS2000X plus and SDS2000X HD to understand what nomenclature Siglent uses. Here's what I got from the manuals. Disclaimer: I may have overlooked something, or the scopes may have software features which are not mentioned in the manuals.

• There seems to be broad consensus on the terms "manual cursors" (user positions X and/or Y cursors manually) and "tracking cursors" (user positions X, scope moves Y cursor to the intersection point of X cursor and signal trace). Of course the Siglents provide this, as do the Rigol DHOs. Rigol also lets you toggle to a mode where you control the Y cursors and the X cursors follow along; I did not see that option mentioned by Siglent.

• I could not find anything corresponding to Rigol's "indicators" in either Siglent manual. (The scope takes automatic measurements and automatically places lines to indicate where they are taken.) Of course Siglent has a broad selection of automatic measurements, but I could not find any hint at graphical position indicators. So I believe tautech had simply misunderstood what the Rigol "indicators" described by Fungus do, and erroneously claimed that they were the same as "tracking cursors" elsewhere.

• On the other hand, Siglent gives the user more control over automatic measurements. You can define the time window within which automatic measurements  are taken, via two "gate cursors" on the screen. Rigol's DHO does not seem to offer that facility. (But both brands offer control over the vertical thresholds used in automated measurements. No graphical cursors are used in that, the user just enters numbers in a dialog.)

So that's my current understanding. If I got something wrong, please feel free to correct! Otherwise I'm happy with this and will let the matter rest. 

[Mechatrommer]

I got chinglish camera app. Whenever a warning msgbox appears, i have a button to press with word 'I See', hilarious!  I usually saw 'OK' button. Thats one way to do it i guess.. discussing linguistic thing will be no end. Those stuck with industrial terms, carry on.. bite your finger if you cant stand it.. or better, make industrial standard cheap accesible to anyone.

[2N3055]

Here is the snapshot.
On Keysight it is exactly the same, but Keysight does not allow you to take a screenshot with fly out menu.
It has been called cursor because it is a cursor and is implemented that way.

If Rigol decided to implement something that does this function (shows reference points for automated measurements) in a different manner then they call it something else. I think going against established practice is not helpful to new users who used other brands before. (it prolongs learning curve) but in the end most important thing is that it implements the function.

For this topic it would be more important for DHO800 users to verify it works well...

[ebastler]

Fungus had shared a couple of screenshots earlier, re-attached here. Looks like Rigol has given these "indicators" a different place in the UI, attaching them to the Measurement display and dialog (rather than the cursors): Tap an active measurement in the list on the right, and activate its indicator.

Rigol does not annotate the indicator lines with the measurement value directly, as Keysight does. While I like the Keysight display, given the Rigol's small screen size, that is probably a good compromise.

[2N3055]

Fungus had shared a couple of screenshots earlier, re-attached here. Looks like Rigol has given these "indicators" a different place in the UI, attaching them to the Measurement display and dialog (rather than the cursors): Tap an active measurement in the list on the right, and activate its indicator.

Rigol does not annotate the indicator lines with the measurement value directly, as Keysight does. While I like the Keysight display, given the Rigol's small screen size, that is probably a good compromise.

As I said first time, it does not matter in a long run. It is important it has the function.

[Fungus]

Fungus had shared a couple of screenshots earlier, re-attached here.

I think there was a video somewhere.

I like the name "indicator". To me a "cursor" is something you move by hand, eg. the cursor on a slide rule.

Let's not argue though, let's celebrate that we have them.

[2N3055]

Fungus had shared a couple of screenshots earlier, re-attached here.

I think there was a video somewhere.

I like the name "indicator". To me a "cursor" is something you move by hand, eg. the cursor on a slide rule.

Let's not argue though, let's celebrate that we have them.

Well "cursor" is basically "marker" of position... These terms are basically synonyms..

In strict sense  "indicator" signifies state of something (ON/OFF for instance..)
But a measurement function is there. That is important.

I sometimes think Rigol has a chip on a shoulder connected with "lost love" with Keysight and they chose some terminology to differ from them on purpose.... 

[Fungus]

In strict sense  "indicator" signifies state of something (ON/OFF for instance..)

An indicator can also indicate the position of something, the direction of something, the type of something....

[2N3055]

In strict sense  "indicator" signifies state of something (ON/OFF for instance..)

An indicator can also indicate the position of something, the direction of something, the type of something....

No, not really. That is different. Marker and Cursor have a coordinate as a data being communicated.
As GPS coordinate is a marker.
A cursor in text editor is physical position (coordinate) of where you insert text when typing.

Indicator signifies something is active.
Like direction indicators on your car that show the you "switched on" changing direction maneuver to the left or right.
They don't measure your position, they show a state : "intention to turn left, not going straight"

Direction is state of your azymuth, and type of something is also enumerative type. That is what I said.

But that is beside the point here.
Little DHO800 can show you where it makes measurements.

[ebastler]

[...]
But that is beside the point here.
Little DHO800 can show you where it makes measurements.

While I disagree with your etymology, I do agree with the conclusion.  

I quite like that feature -- gives you peace of mind that your automatic measurement is actually looking where you want it to look.

[Martin72]

Every scope should have a VESA mount...

[dmulligan]

Every scope should have a VESA mount...

Only scopes?

[Martin72]

At the moment, I can't think of any other measuring device for this.

[ebastler]

A flying soldering iron might come in handy at times, when there's a mess on my bench again.