Author Topic: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?  (Read 30469 times)

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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2020, 08:37:28 pm »
Financially speaking, the $437.57 price difference is a drop in the bucket, but at the same time I'm generally frugal unless spending the extra money for more features creates a better value proposition / ROI.

Value for money is about the same.

Plus: We can easily recommend more expensive toys if you've got money.  :)

If the AWG can be numerically controlled via software like you said, the Siglent seems to top out at 3 volts, whereas the Rigol can drive 5 volt, and given that I want to work with retro digital circuits I presume I'm going to be working with 5 volt logic... yes?

I'd have thought the pattern generator of your Analog Discovery would be more useful for this.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2020, 09:31:27 pm »
Furthermore, what's the resell value on these when I upgrade to the latest and greatest in a few years... I recall several years ago that Siglent was unlawfully blocking the sale of used equipment on eBay, are they still doing this? The Rigol has a software bundle promo right now, and strictly speaking I would have to reset the scope back to defaults if I were to sell it to someone else, so the extra software bundle license might actually have a little bit of tangible value when I decide to sell it too.
I don't have any of the oscilloscopes but, as an owner of a midrange Rigol (DS4014) that had tons of issues at its inception and took a couple of years to fix them, I imagine the MSO5000 won't have a much different story here. Despite the bugs were mostly fixed in the latest firmware version of the DS4000 series and it became a very stable instrument (with the possibility of being fully unlocked to 500MHz, lots of decoders and a very deep memory at 5GSPS), every time someone mentions this family others jump at how it uses an "old architecture" or is just buggy. That certainly affects resale value. 
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Offline Martin72

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2020, 09:41:03 pm »
I´ve sold my MSO5000 only 70€ cheaper then a new one immediately, after one year in use...
Used rigol DS1000Z models reaching nearly everytime the 300 bucks, although new ones won´t cost much more.
For my rigol ds2072 I got only 599€....
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Offline cutthebluewire

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2020, 02:55:46 am »
I have followed and read all the various threads around these two scopes with interest, plus watched so many utube reviews.

I have a couple of questions for those users of the Siglent SDS2000X+ scopes. Not purely technical but something that warrants consideration I think.

1. How "nice" is the multi-function/select knob to use?. I don't recall this being mentioned, but the threads are so long now I may have missed it and search didn't return anything useful.

The single biggest irritation to me with my current Rigol 2000 is its habit of changing values when you push the select button, unless I press it just so. This still seems to be an issue with the 5000 from videos I have seen. I think in the Howard Long vid it happens to him. Multi-function/select button sensitivity annoys me enough that I am considering a GWINSTEK MDO2204 due to the separate "select" button. Maybe the touch screen of the Siglent alleviates some of that concern. Although I am not that fond of touch screens. Things can get messy when using them while eating hot chips 'n gravy :).
May not be a big deal for most but little things like that get me spewing expletives.

2. How readable is the screen text. Being a 10" screen it should be better. I usually wear Multi-focals and need to change to other glasses for "lab" work.

In regards to cost differences I found the Rigol to be more expensive. Ignoring hackability of Rigol base model. An MSO5104 is about AU$2878 vs SDS2104X+ AU$2321 (from Aus distributors sites). Maybe that's the 350Mhz probes.

As to either being a long term proposition would depend on what one is working on I suppose. Do the same thing in 10 years as now and that 10 yr old tool is still suitable. But something will likely come along where you will go "gotta get me one of those", and then we are back to these sorts of threads.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2020, 07:37:44 am »
I have followed and read all the various threads around these two scopes with interest, plus watched so many utube reviews.

I have a couple of questions for those users of the Siglent SDS2000X+ scopes. Not purely technical but something that warrants consideration I think.

1. How "nice" is the multi-function/select knob to use?. I don't recall this being mentioned, but the threads are so long now I may have missed it and search didn't return anything useful.
It's fit for purpose although if it had a larger knob it would be even better.
Siglent have the acceleration algorithm pretty good on all their modern scopes.

Quote
Maybe the touch screen of the Siglent alleviates some of that concern. Although I am not that fond of touch screens.
Certainly touch does and you'll find yourself using touch with a 2kX Plus as it's faster and even more so when using a mouse as well. The multipurpose control can be pressed when a numeric adjustment box is highlit and active to bring up a virtual keypad where absolute values can be selected with touch or a mouse and when one gets the hang of this the multipurpose knob gets used little.

Quote
2. How readable is the screen text. Being a 10" screen it should be better. I usually wear Multi-focals and need to change to other glasses for "lab" work.
I grab +1's or +2's now for real work and I don't think you'll have any issues with visibility although some of the labels of the more complex measurement types need another look as they're abbreviations but you shouldn't have issues with the more everyday ones.
If you can make out all the text in the screenshots from Performa01 in the first few pages of the SDS2000X Plus thread you'll be fine as they are more distinct in real life.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2020, 11:21:25 am »
1. How "nice" is the multi-function/select knob to use?. I don't recall this being mentioned, but the threads are so long now I may have missed it and search didn't return anything useful.
It's fit for purpose although if it had a larger knob it would be even better.

It's still a horrible user interface device though. Pushing a knob to make a selection is just WRONG.

(and leads to the occasional error because the know usually turns a bit when you push it)

There's only one brand that gets it right AFAIK, and that's GW-Instek. They have a separate button next to the knob to make the selection. No knob-push required.

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2020, 11:23:48 am »
In regards to cost differences I found the Rigol to be more expensive. Ignoring hackability of Rigol base model. An MSO5104 is about AU$2878 vs SDS2104X+ AU$2321 (from Aus distributors sites). Maybe that's the 350Mhz probes.

"Ignoring hackability"?  :-//


 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2020, 01:47:22 pm »
1. How "nice" is the multi-function/select knob to use?. I don't recall this being mentioned, but the threads are so long now I may have missed it and search didn't return anything useful.
It's fit for purpose although if it had a larger knob it would be even better.

It's still a horrible user interface device though. Pushing a knob to make a selection is just WRONG.
I disagree; I am faster operating an instrument this way.

However, that was certainly my opinion about my scope before I changed the encoder of my DS4014 to a detented one from Alps.
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Offline TK

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2020, 02:09:45 pm »
1. How "nice" is the multi-function/select knob to use?. I don't recall this being mentioned, but the threads are so long now I may have missed it and search didn't return anything useful.
It's fit for purpose although if it had a larger knob it would be even better.

It's still a horrible user interface device though. Pushing a knob to make a selection is just WRONG.
I disagree; I am faster operating an instrument this way.

However, that was certainly my opinion about my scope before I changed the encoder of my DS4014 to a detented one from Alps.
If it is implemented correctly, you should not have major problems, but even later Keysight scopes (1000X Linux based) experience some sort of miss-selections... It used to be spon on.  Or you could add a select button just below the knob, like the GW Instek scopes. 
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2020, 02:12:23 pm »
However, that was certainly my opinion about my scope before I changed the encoder of my DS4014 to a detented one from Alps.

If you're into DIY you could maybe drill out a hole next to the selector and add a push button.   >:D

« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 02:14:48 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline TK

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #60 on: October 27, 2020, 02:47:08 pm »
However, that was certainly my opinion about my scope before I changed the encoder of my DS4014 to a detented one from Alps.

If you're into DIY you could maybe drill out a hole next to the selector and add a push button.   >:D
It is a good idea, maybe scope manufacturers can implement this in future products, no SW modification needed
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #61 on: October 27, 2020, 03:15:29 pm »
However, that was certainly my opinion about my scope before I changed the encoder of my DS4014 to a detented one from Alps.

If you're into DIY you could maybe drill out a hole next to the selector and add a push button.   >:D
:-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD
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Offline cutthebluewire

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #62 on: October 28, 2020, 02:07:25 am »
Thank you all for the responses. I was a little hesitant in asking as UI interactions are somewhat subjective.  Being involved in some software UI testing in the past, trying to please everyone is nigh impossible. Mind you I was mainly there to see if I could break or subvert it.

It's fit for purpose although if it had a larger knob it would be even better.
Siglent have the acceleration algorithm pretty good on all their modern scopes.

Quote
Maybe the touch screen of the Siglent alleviates some of that concern. Although I am not that fond of touch screens.
Certainly touch does and you'll find yourself using touch with a 2kX Plus as it's faster and even more so when using a mouse as well. The multipurpose control can be pressed when a numeric adjustment box is highlit and active to bring up a virtual keypad where absolute values can be selected with touch or a mouse and when one gets the hang of this the multipurpose knob gets used little.

@tautech
That is sort of what I was hoping for, that a mix would make it easier. Or I am just being a baby and should just deal with it. But I do like tools to be "comfortable" to use.

Quote
2. How readable is the screen text. Being a 10" screen it should be better. I usually wear Multi-focals and need to change to other glasses for "lab" work.
I grab +1's or +2's now for real work and I don't think you'll have any issues with visibility although some of the labels of the more complex measurement types need another look as they're abbreviations but you shouldn't have issues with the more everyday ones.
If you can make out all the text in the screenshots from Performa01 in the first few pages of the SDS2000X Plus thread you'll be fine as they are more distinct in real life.

Yes, have seen those. Wasn't sure how close they would be in real life.  If they are like that or better then that would be usable. To see any of these scopes in the flesh I have to travel 300+kms and with the "flu" in parts of Sydney I am trying to avoid that.

"Ignoring hackability"?  :-//

@Fungus
Yes. To me being hackable should not be a prime consideration when comparing products. Not that I am adverse to it. All my Rigol gear has been "upgraded". Yah! I thought it'll be more useful, but apart from serial decodes I never use the extra capability. So whilst being hackable is a nice to have, it is less important to me than base usability(but that's subjective too).


So far of all the scopes I have considered, the R&S ones appear to have the nicest looking UI to me. The R&S are tempting, especially with their current promotions. Being retired and really just a hobbyist getting back into ham radio, even an RTC1000 would do most of what I need but it has no bode plot. Which I do want as life's too short to do it manually. I just don't think that the UI is enough to justify getting an RTB for my lowly uses.


 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #63 on: November 07, 2020, 11:30:34 am »
In Rigol MSO5000 series there is also SFRA aka BodePlot.

But, really difficult to find any details and functions and performance about SFRA feature in it. Also it looks like owners do not want tell about it. Weird.

I just ago read user manual and data sheet and advertisements many times but I can not find any kind of more detailed info about SFRA whole dynamic range and SFRA (BodePlot) other details.
Yes they tell 10 - 300 samples per decade. So if I sweep from 10Hz to 10MHz. There is 6 decades.
Can I set it for do 1800 steps in sweep and it produce 1800 row data table where is freq, level and phase.
If I set center 10MHz and span say example 500Hz how many sweep steps it can do... what is freq resolution.

If DUT have example 80dB difference in this swept band, say example pass band top level is reference and in this case it is example 10dBm and in stop band area level drops 80dB can I measure it in one sweep? How it is if level drop more, say example 100dB?

Then If I need look some narrow band pass filter. Take example 100kHz  CW filter what width is 100Hz.  Say example shape factor 1:3 and need look stop band down to least under -60dBcenter.

Is it possible to set for 1Hz resolution with span 500Hz.  For example look some XTAL response.

Example like this. Is it possible with MSO5000  BodePlot. It is possible even with Siglent SDS1000X-E as also Teledyne LeCroy T3DSO1104, T3DSO1104 and of course scope model in topic, Siglent SDS2104XPlus and Teledyne LeCroy T3DSO2104A.



84kHz XTAL.
Lets hope later they develop it bit more for more variable vertical scale and for more narrow span also  with higher freq resolution. 1Hz is bit too coarse.


Then bit different. 14.2MHz filter (bad one)

Here 14.2MHz filter. Span 60kHz, step 120Hz. Just simple BodePlot.

And compared how spectrum analyzer show it for proof that BodePlot is not so far away from SA view.

Setup was bit different due to fact these tests are made totally separately without originally even thinking any compare.
When carefully look images my opinion is that in this kind if works SDS1104X-E BodePlot is better or even far better than SSA3021X with TG for this kind of testing. And have lot of features what this SA do not have for this.
Even with some limits it is amazing good tool and not just as checkbox feature in shiny sales brochure.


Are there anyone who have MSO5000 and can test it example just with some XTAL  or some other way how it can use for narrow span.
Also what is its dynamic range inside one sweep.  In some info it looks like it do BP just using normal scope xt sweep.

Then there read in manual that user can select channels 1 - 4 free. can it do more than one channel BP simultaneously or just one. Also, where is reference channel. Iunderstand that user can not select what channel to use for reference. if this is true how user can select DUT output for channels 1 to 4.
How it is exactly?


Main questions are:  What is its measurements dynamic range in one sweep and what is narrow some span maximum frequency resolution in over 100kHz frequencies.  Or say example center freq 1MHz and 500Hz span. what is freq step increment (resolution).
What is its best resolution say example if center is 10MHz. What is in this case minimum span and what is step interval.
If it is just as told max 300 for one decade then it can not do anything narrow band analyzing like I show Siglent can do.

Looks like this is too hard question. Perhaps I can guess why..

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Online mawyatt

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #64 on: November 07, 2020, 05:33:31 pm »
Will the SDS2000X Plus utilize the full BW of the external SDG6000X AWG in Bode Plot mode?

I know this works with the SDS2102X Plus "enhanced" to 350MHz with SDG2042X which has been "enhanced" to 120MHz, this allows a full 120MHz Bode Plot sweep :-+

Added plots showing a RG58 cables (3) & Banana to BNC adapter test using the Bode Plot, note the null caused by the high impedance reflected scope impedance (1M) and RG58 cable on C1, C2 was terminated (internal) with 50 ohms. Second Bode plot shows a standard cheap BNC "T" adapter with 3 RG316 20" cables with a high impedance (1M) scope input on C1 (C2 50 ohms), also note the null caused by the high scope impedance. Third is a plot of 3 RG316 cables (AWG, C1, C2) with both scopes inputs C1 and C2 terminated, so not a proper "matched" connection at the "T" but yields much better performance (proper "T" match would have been a 3 way 50 ohm power splitter). I often use this type improper "T" connection rather than an open circuit or high impedance when working beyond 10MHz with 50 ohm cables.

These Bode plots clearly show why you shouldn't use Banana adapters or standard 50 ohm cables beyond about 10MHz with a high impedance loads, the reflected high/open circuit causes a very low impedance at 1/4 cable wavelength which causes significant attenuation at these 1/4 wave frequencies.

The Bode Plot can be useful in everyday measurements and an added benefit of these popular versatile DSOs.     

Best,
« Last Edit: November 07, 2020, 08:28:32 pm by mawyatt »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2020, 11:07:47 am »
Will the SDS2000X Plus utilize the full BW of the external SDG6000X AWG in Bode Plot mode?

I know this works with the SDS2102X Plus "enhanced" to 350MHz with SDG2042X which has been "enhanced" to 120MHz, this allows a full 120MHz Bode Plot sweep :-+

Added plots showing a RG58 cables (3) & Banana to BNC adapter test using the Bode Plot, note the null caused by the high impedance reflected scope impedance (1M) and RG58 cable on C1, C2 was terminated (internal) with 50 ohms. Second Bode plot shows a standard cheap BNC "T" adapter with 3 RG316 20" cables with a high impedance (1M) scope input on C1 (C2 50 ohms), also note the null caused by the high scope impedance. Third is a plot of 3 RG316 cables (AWG, C1, C2) with both scopes inputs C1 and C2 terminated, so not a proper "matched" connection at the "T" but yields much better performance (proper "T" match would have been a 3 way 50 ohm power splitter). I often use this type improper "T" connection rather than an open circuit or high impedance when working beyond 10MHz with 50 ohm cables.

These Bode plots clearly show why you shouldn't use Banana adapters or standard 50 ohm cables beyond about 10MHz with a high impedance loads, the reflected high/open circuit causes a very low impedance at 1/4 cable wavelength which causes significant attenuation at these 1/4 wave frequencies.

The Bode Plot can be useful in everyday measurements and an added benefit of these popular versatile DSOs.     

Best,



BodePlot limit is max 120MHz as far as I know. It is limited by AWG in use or 120MHz depending which one is lower. Also 120MHz is bit too high but usable for some simple things if do not need high accuracy, specially phase is problem. Also Signal generators start reduce output level with higher frequencies so it also start limit usable dynamic range when testing passive circuits. Of course case with active circuits what may have amplification etc then dynamic range max is what is BP itself dynamic range.

Something like this (This is OLD (and possible obsolete after FW updates),  just for look it in freq range where are mostly HF radio receivers filters etc.)

As can see there is SDG1000X up to 60MHz band dynamic range ( based to my some tests) what is roughly up to 100dB. Best range is where are most HF receivers IF filters. But of course scope can handle much higher amplitudes so if DUT is amplifier dynamic range can be higher. But then need also "bit different" grade feed thru terminator depending what is max power. 60dBm (1kW) max it can be up to 160dB single sweep dynamic range and this is lot but you need 1kW 50ohm feed thru. So... perhaps not for "everyone".  8)
 
Siglent BodePlot performace and features are handled some amount in specified thread in forum. It is there handled using SDS1104/SDS1204X-E what is, afaik, quite same what is on SDS2000X-E and 2000XPlus models.
BodePlot support all Siglent AWG  X models.
If need work over roughly said 20-40MHz it is not enough to use just good cables and of course impedance matching is nothing more but mandatory. But even it is not enough. For good tests with higher frequencies need do time calibration and it is not so simple. Oh well it is simple if user have some special things... what most of users do not have.
But if start talking bit more deep things then need write one book.

What is ok for low freq very simple things just all these can throw away if do something other than just play fun things.
Example some things may need double channel setup where input to DUT is separated from input to BodePlot Reference but it need know how to calibrate this setup for some measurements. Example if use dual channel generator setup how to do timing calibration (for get real phase instead of "something"). There is skew in generator, cables propagation times need match and scope channels skew... these timing things need calibrate just for individual setup and settings.
One degree in phase is roughly 28ps when freq is 100MHz. Example with RG58 (PE  type, example Belden 9201) roughly 5.5mm length respond 1 degree phase shift (velocity factor is 0.66). And after then come scope inputs internal skew what need compensate externally! If need even somehow accurate phase all these need zero, one possible tool is adjustable length coaxial. Then also impedance need match and it IS difficult part due to facts about signal generator output and scope input circuits.
All is simple with audio frequencies.
And then if go over 50MHz...over 100MHz things goes much more difficult. So my opinion is: 120MHz limit is good and even it is bit high. Perhaps 60MHz is better limit.
Of course "something" can do with 100MHz and even with bit higher but then we go more up... results goes more to "entertainment" grade than test and measurement instrument grade and I do not like if test instruments include these "game boy features" for play just some fun.

----------------------------------


But. Topic is Rigol - Siglent.

I wonder bit why there is nearly total lack of information and truth about Rigol BodePlot function in MSO5000 model.

In my previous message there is many questions about RIGOL - without any single answer. And answer can not find from Rigol and not here.
(same as with GoodWill BP and same as with Keysight BP in they low end models, just nearly nothing)
Resolution, Span, swept measurement dynamic range etc etc and if they are working using swept frequency selective receiver or just simplest broad band scope channel.



Please even freq resolution... just someone who have this scope. Open BP and set and look and tell numbers.
Set 1MHz center. What is minimum span. What is minimum freq step.
Set 1MHz center and span 1kHz. What is minimum freq step. If minimum span is smaller, then do it give more freq resolution.

Of course if someone can tell more it is nice.  If also can know maximum usable single sweep dynamic range. And whole freq range dynamic range if test signal to DUT is just 0dBm what is then max usable dynamic range (yes this need bit work for test). And how many channels simultaneously max from DUT. Manual tell that user can select channels 1 - 4.  Do it have 4 channel BodePlot or just select what single channel is in use for BP.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 11:50:11 am by rf-loop »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #66 on: November 08, 2020, 11:17:05 am »
In the end you have to think about what bode-plot is being used for and in most cases that will be looking at the frequency response of a circuit which some RC poles in there. For that you don't need small spaced frequency steps. It is great the Siglent bode-plot can show the response of a crystal but then what? My network analyser can tell me the equivalent circuit of a crystal using the response plot. At some point you enter an area of diminished returns. And you can also find the peaks of a crystal by sweeping the frequency so it is not that bode-plot (or network analyser) is required to measure a crystal.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #67 on: November 08, 2020, 12:49:23 pm »
In the end you have to think about what bode-plot is being used for and in most cases that will be looking at the frequency response of a circuit which some RC poles in there. For that you don't need small spaced frequency steps. It is great the Siglent bode-plot can show the response of a crystal but then what? My network analyser can tell me the equivalent circuit of a crystal using the response plot. At some point you enter an area of diminished returns. And you can also find the peaks of a crystal by sweeping the frequency so it is not that bode-plot (or network analyser) is required to measure a crystal.

What about a xtal. Do you understand it is ONLY  ONE example about limits!
There is also many other limits. Do you really think BP is just for some simply RC. Yes it can do also it.

Of course because Siglent have this and some other what brand you like do not have your first argument is that oh... this feature is not useful and no one need. Because you do not need.  World have lot of preoples from africa, asia, europe, america etc who have lot of different needs.

It takes also time before peoples start find how useful these are for many purposes. It do not happen if all make it as Keysight or GW bottom model BP joke and now it looks like Rigol have also gone to Keyshit way until some tell they have not. Yes after these all can say. BP is not at all important... not so useful.   I can say these really are not useful except some simple RC like circuits just for fun or bottom level students. Until someone do it better and Siglent have done.

Old times I use also SFRA. It was made Rohde&Schwarz. It was heavy, it was expensive. So expensive that only some peoples can touch it in lab.
Can you think they was stupid they make these equipments. Did you told to Rohde that they are for nothing. Now this simple and cheap Siglent can walk around it just hands down except they was bit more high freq and faster but lot of lacking features also.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 01:01:47 pm by rf-loop »
BEV of course. Cars with smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the (strong)wises gone?
 

Offline Frex

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #68 on: November 08, 2020, 01:42:54 pm »

I agree with you rf-loop.

I own some time ago also the SDS2104X-Plus, and the bode plot was one of the feature I'm interested in.
I'm almost very pleased with this scope, but I must say that the Bode plot function seem unfinished and a little bit disappointing.
First, the sweep time is very very slow, and scope doesn't response to any command during the plot.
Also as said, enable to get low step frequency of sweep is a problem for any case where the level change very fast with frequency.
In my application, it's not a crystal, but a simple passive notch filter with high Q. It's impossible to get the right notch depth with it.
So, as rf-loop say,  it's a pity to not allow to choose the step frequency as parameters.
Regards

Frex
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #69 on: November 08, 2020, 03:19:43 pm »
In the end you have to think about what bode-plot is being used for and in most cases that will be looking at the frequency response of a circuit which some RC poles in there. For that you don't need small spaced frequency steps. It is great the Siglent bode-plot can show the response of a crystal but then what? My network analyser can tell me the equivalent circuit of a crystal using the response plot. At some point you enter an area of diminished returns. And you can also find the peaks of a crystal by sweeping the frequency so it is not that bode-plot (or network analyser) is required to measure a crystal.

What about a xtal. Do you understand it is ONLY  ONE example about limits!
There is also many other limits. Do you really think BP is just for some simply RC. Yes it can do also it.
Instead or ranting on come up with a practical circuit where you need fine-grained bode plotting (say more than 100 points/decade). Circuits with sharp peaks in their frequency response are not very common because their dependancy on component stability makes them hard to use in practical situations (subject to temperature and aging).

See the comment from Frex above. It isn't all sunshine & rainbows; at some point other methods/equipment become more effective.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #70 on: November 09, 2020, 06:01:51 am »
In the end you have to think about what bode-plot is being used for and in most cases that will be looking at the frequency response of a circuit which some RC poles in there. For that you don't need small spaced frequency steps. It is great the Siglent bode-plot can show the response of a crystal but then what? My network analyser can tell me the equivalent circuit of a crystal using the response plot. At some point you enter an area of diminished returns. And you can also find the peaks of a crystal by sweeping the frequency so it is not that bode-plot (or network analyser) is required to measure a crystal.

You can tell this also to Keysight so that no one need these. Are they stupid they develop it for much more resolution and narrow span and better dynamics. DSO X 4000 series.

 
He did not even go and show deep limits in this simple video show. But 1000 poits in any span if I heard right!
And you say this kind of resolution is not useful at all. (because YOU have VNA)  And soon there is coming more performance. Can you understand at all why. Just for fun or for response needs. Think carefully before answer from your narrow looking angle from some niche area in electronics. Why it is like red cloth to bull when Siglent do something.

When Siglent try do this to cheaper instruments, not as nice UI etc, but still lot of performance you say these are nonsense. Keysight do not these without reason, I believe. And not only for "check box" feature for sales brochures.  But of course you can be opponent.

« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 06:26:25 am by rf-loop »
BEV of course. Cars with smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the (strong)wises gone?
 
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #71 on: November 09, 2020, 06:48:55 am »

I agree with you rf-loop.

I own some time ago also the SDS2104X-Plus, and the bode plot was one of the feature I'm interested in.
I'm almost very pleased with this scope, but I must say that the Bode plot function seem unfinished and a little bit disappointing.
First, the sweep time is very very slow, and scope doesn't response to any command during the plot.
Also as said, enable to get low step frequency of sweep is a problem for any case where the level change very fast with frequency.
In my application, it's not a crystal, but a simple passive notch filter with high Q. It's impossible to get the right notch depth with it.
So, as rf-loop say,  it's a pity to not allow to choose the step frequency as parameters.
Regards

Frex

Yes, clearly there is things what need improve. In UI and some in features for serve better very different users very different needs.

Speed question is hard. I think with this kind of setup and hardware there can not do much for speed up it without decrease performance in other things. 
When set [Channel Chain Hold] (ALC Off) it give some more speed but price is dynamic range.  [Channel Chain Auto] (ALC On) give full available dynamic range but is much slower. Just for one example about things what is behind speed.
BEV of course. Cars with smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the (strong)wises gone?
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #72 on: November 09, 2020, 09:55:07 am »
@rf-loop: again; stop ranting and show is why Siglent's way is better with a real circuit. Very simple question. We don't care that you hate Keysight (which you keep bringing up again and again). You start to sound like Trump: Siglent is better. I've seen it myself. Bigger numbers. It's true! Really.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 11:02:00 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #73 on: November 09, 2020, 01:03:20 pm »
@rf-loop: again; stop ranting and show is why Siglent's way is better with a real circuit. Very simple question. We don't care that you hate Keysight (which you keep bringing up again and again). You start to sound like Trump: Siglent is better. I've seen it myself. Bigger numbers. It's true! Really.

You are really fun. Just I linked Keysight youtube what have better BP than Siglent in just example this resolution and span things and also UI looks good. Also told that Siglent need develop UI better. This was example to you who try told how useless is BP and it do not need fancy resolution and I ask... why then Keysight do these and develop these better and better and one nctnico tell it is nearly for nothing. Why you do not go to Keysight discussing and tell how nonsense these dynamic and resolution things are because only for some RC.... 

Also I have told time ago that in its time Siglent SDS1000X-E series BP (version II) was very good or afaik even best in its price class in this time, and I have also displayed true test data. And sorry, I like more data, numbers etc than your opinions. Of course if I show false data, wrong numbers etc I like very much if someone correct me, even you. But if you do not like right numbers it is your problem. Scrap the Numbers, Get a Real Opinions.

And now you tell that I hate Keysight. This is total and deepest bullshit I have heard long time. You do not know nearly anything what I think, what I like and what I hate. I have been Hewlett-Packard fan perhaps even before you have born. There was one total disappoint in 70s but it was not test equipment, it was some HP3000 nightmare what crash nearly every week but it was exception, before it there was E.I.A analog computer what was really good but spare parts start being problem, in critical places need always be backup spares. But, I do not like all what have happen in company. Only what I hate in this HP - Agilent - Keysight story is time of Carly Fiorina "disaster".

But for what you pop-up here when I ask how Rigol works and some numbers what are not published in data sheet and user manual. After then you start this your own show without any other reason than name Siglent exist what is like red cloth to bull for you. How long time it take you can walk over this post traumatic position after SDS2000 accident in your life.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 01:12:27 pm by rf-loop »
BEV of course. Cars with smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the (strong)wises gone?
 
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Rigol MSO5074 or Siglent SDS2104X-Plus ?
« Reply #74 on: November 09, 2020, 02:46:56 pm »
Although it's not something I use much, and it's the first time even trying a crystal filter on a scope FRA, I just did some FRA plots on an MSO3104T, SDS1204X-E, SDS2504X Plus and MSO5000.

I tend to agree with some other posters, if I'm to measure a crystal I'd be heading straight to the VNA rather than contemplate using a scope, so this is largely an academic exercise for me.

The DUT is a 4 pole 10.7MHz, 7.5kHz BW band pass filter, ECS-10.7-7.5B. I used 320 ohm terminations (including the load, source and the fixture's series matching resistors) as that's the fixture I had lying around. 200mV pp drive. 60 points requested for the sweep (if possible). So my termination wasn't optimum.

The Keysight, SDS1204X-E & SDS2504X+ managed to do some sort of a job with it, but the MSO5000 doesn't appear to have the frequency resolution to even start measuring such a device, being limited to 300 points/decade, so completely useless for crystal measurement. FWIW, I also tried the SDS2054+ using both the internal Wavegen and an external SDG1025 as the source, both worked fine.

Note how the phase measurements can flip quadrant on all of these measurements, so care needs to be taken when interpreting the results.

MSOX3104T:
1105752-0

SDS1204X-E:
1105756-1

SDS2504X+ internal Wavegen:
1105760-2

MSO5000
[ Specified attachment is not available ]

MSO5000 settings
[ Specified attachment is not available ]
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 09:48:49 pm by Howardlong »
 
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