Rigol MSO4000 and DS4000. Tests, bugs, firmware, questions, etc...

[Gunb]

I started having the same problem with the Horizontal scale knob on my DS2000 after about 14 or 15 months of owning it. I sent it back (to the dealer) for knob replacement while I was abroad a month ago. It's fine again.

OK, good to know. But annoying to send it to the service. Does anybody know the part no. of these digital potentiometer? I mean, I expect it will happen in the future again and it's not difficult to change these parts. Last year our company sent an old Agilent scope to the service with the same issue and it cost about 500,-€.

Rgds
Gunb

[Teneyes]

Hi,
question concerning the HORIZONTAL knob of the DS4000 series:
when I turn it fast the timebase sometimes jumps back or foward.
When turning the knob slower there's absolute no problem.

Hi
  Have You used the Key Test , see Pix below.

I had a RMA repair done on my DS2000 and received this note

----------------------------------
Hi xxxx,
We finished up repairing your scope.
I desoldered the remaining retention rings and cleaned the all of the vias.
Then, I soldered the new retention rings (Qty 4) in,
replaced the metal encoders on the keypad (a suggested upgrade),
performed a self-calibration, and then verified the unit was in cal with our new calibration verification hardware.
Regards,    Rigol Technologies USA Applications Support Team
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I think this suggests bad encoders before  (2013)

[marmad]

OK, good to know. But annoying to send it to the service. Does anybody know the part no. of these digital potentiometer? I mean, I expect it will happen in the future again and it's not difficult to change these parts. Last year our company sent an old Agilent scope to the service with the same issue and it cost about 500,-€.

Rgds
Gunb

Well, it was under warranty, so I only paid for shipping one-way. He offered to send me the part (or I could also just send him the encoder board already removed), but since I was leaving the country (and couldn't use the DSO), it wasn't worth my time to do the work myself to save € 30. I might be able to get the part number.

[Gunb]

Hi
  Have You used the Key Test , see Pix below.

I had a RMA repair done on my DS2000 and received this note

Good idea. Meanwhile the keytest revealed the encoder to be the root cause for this issue.

Well, it was under warranty, so I only paid for shipping one-way. He offered to send me the part (or I could also just send him the encoder board already removed), but since I was leaving the country (and couldn't use the DSO), it wasn't worth my time to do the work myself to save € 30. I might be able to get the part number.

OK, would be interesting to get aware of the part number. Meanwhile I've searched for a few 12 step rotary encoders with a push button and I only could find a few from ALPS. These ones seem to look as the ones on the Rigol PCB in the videos.

Thanks guys for your excellent hints!

Kind regards
Gunb

[Hydrawerk]

I started having the same problem with the Horizontal scale knob on my DS2000 after about 14 or 15 months of owning it. I sent it back (to the dealer) for knob replacement while I was abroad a month ago. It's fine again.

How often did you use your scope? Two hours a day? Well, many Rigols might have problems with encoders.

[Gunb]

How often did you use your scope? Two hours a day? Well, many Rigols might have problems with encoders.

I was afraid of your really helpful reply 

What's more annoying: the encoder issue or useless comments?
Maybe you can post the part number I'm searching for instead of videos anybody knows. That would be helpful.

Amen.

[Gunb]

Just be aware that Hydrawerk is an Agilent Owner and strives to put down Rigol equipment,
I'm not sure why he nitpicks so much. Just like a chicken pecking the the red spot.

Oh yes, I know. You're right.

Meanwhile contacted Rigol support. Problem is going to be solved. Got a reply 5 minutes after the mail was sent.
That's what I like. Fast & kind, no reason to complain.

Kind regards
Gunb

[Hydrawerk]

Just be aware that Hydrawerk is an Agilent Owner and strives to put down Rigol equipment,
I'm not sure why he nitpicks so much. Just like a chicken pecking the the red spot.

Well, sorry, I am not gonna say that Agilent is perfect.
I have never seen a problem with rotary encoders on Agilent scopes at my university but some of 10+ years old 54600 series scopes have problems with rubber buttons under the screen. Even the Infinii Vision 6000 series (here MSO6034A) might suffer from this problem.
And I did see many troubles with encoders at many Agilent 33220A function generators. The units did not look very old... That's not good.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/agilent-signal-generators/?action=dlattach;attach=67722;image
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/agilent-signal-generators/msg333060/#msg333060

[marmad]

How often did you use your scope? Two hours a day? Well, many Rigols might have problems with encoders.

I can't speak to Gunb's usage, but I've used my DS2000 for a massive amount of time - much more than 2 hours a day over many months - because I was writing complex software for it and it had to be up and running during the writing. And the Horizontal scale knob got used most of all - because many of the routines written were related to Delayed Sweep (which required much H. scale adjustment).

And lumping together other products from the same manufacturer that might have similar problems is irrelevant: it's highly unlikely the same encoders are used in the UltraVision line as was used in the older model in your posted video - and everyone knows ANY manufacturer (Agilent, Tek, Rigol, etc) can have hardware problems with one model - and none at all with other models they make.

[Hydrawerk]

Some of the Rigols encoders are made of metal, I like it. At Agilent all of them are made of plastic. But I could not find any closer info on the manufacturer, or if they are mechanical or optical.

[dr.diesel]

While at the Dayton Hamvention today I took a few minutes to stop by the Rigol booth and talk with the sales engineers.  I mentioned my displease of the 4000 series firmware citing a few of the examples listed here, got the are you on the latest version and we're constantly improving bullshit.

They had some yet to be released SAs on display, but given the recent junk they've been releasing I didn't even bother to look.

[Gunb]

Some of the Rigols encoders are made of metal, I like it. At Agilent all of them are made of plastic. But I could not find any closer info on the manufacturer, or if they are mechanical or optical.

The horizontal knob is a metal one. When I will have replaced it with the spare part I will open the broken one to see how it works. Assume it's a mechanical one.


Rgds
Gunb

[JHERCULEES1]

Hi,
Seeing that the "other" Rigol thread is mostly on the DS2000 and now the 1000 series I thought I'd post here instead.
Yesterday I applied MrKrabs edition of the 02.01.00.03 DS4000 firmware and it worked like a charm, all options stayed intact, thanks MrKrabs!

In another thread someone mentioned the decoders not operating on recorded frames, something that sounded a bit strange to me - say it isn't so I said to myself. Unfortunately that does seem to be the case (I only tested the RS232 decoder). I thought perhaps the frames had to be recorded with the decoder active but that doesn't work either - as soon as you press the record button the decoder stops updating. "Browsing" thru the recorded frames doesn't do anything with the decoded data on the screen, it just stays the way it was at the moment you pressed Record. Using the wavefor analysis function in order to "preview" the frames at the bottom of the screen the preview to the left of the current of frame somtimes distors badly and this appears to only happen when the decoder is on the screen.

Since the decoders appears to be software driven I really don't see the reason for them not being able to operate on recorded frames.

Don't know if it can be called a bug as I don't think I've seen it stated anywhere that it should work, still kind of a shame though.

I am trying to apply this mkrabs update to my 4014 but the scope doesnt even seem to acknowledge there is an update on the usb stick with this file , how in the world did you install it on the scope?

[JHERCULEES1]

Hello everyone.

   Thank  to  Cybernet and MrKrabs.

My DS4024 model to full!

any info on how to apply this firmware? i put MRKRABS firmware on the memory stick but the scope does not acknowledge there is an fw upgrade to install how did you accomplish it?

[Gallymimus]

did you rename the file to the correct file name for a ds4000 upgrade?

[JHERCULEES1]

ahh finnally got it! had to rename it like you said , but even then my usb refused to see it , i tried several time to do a bootup load of fw and got it finnally , its working i used the trigger out of the scope which has a fast rise time and looked at it its reading almost 1ns on 50 ohm input setting so nice
attached a screenshot of rise time of trigger out connected to ch 1  at timebase 1ns thanks guys!! this is great

[JHERCULEES1]

also i noticed a bug in this fw , i lost the abilty to set volts/div to 500uv   not a huge deal but still it says parameters overrange and minimum is 1mv/div on my 4014 now

[Gunb]

also i noticed a bug in this fw , i lost the abilty to set volts/div to 500uv   not a huge deal but still it says parameters overrange and minimum is 1mv/div on my 4014 now

Why should there be a bug?  Max. sensitivity of the DS4000 series is 1mV/DIV. It's not a DS2000 with 500µV/DIV.

[JHERCULEES1]

also i noticed a bug in this fw , i lost the abilty to set volts/div to 500uv   not a huge deal but still it says parameters overrange and minimum is 1mv/div on my 4014 now

Why should there be a bug?  Max. sensitivity of the DS4000 series is 1mV/DIV. It's not a DS2000 with 500µV/DIV.

OH sorry i didnt know that i probably should know that ..

im kinda surprised its 3 times the price i thought it did have 500uv , but I guess the Fw is working perfectly then , wonder why rigol took away that feature on a more expensive scope , interesting

[marmad]

im kinda surprised its 3 times the price i thought it did have 500uv , but I guess the Fw is working perfectly then , wonder why rigol took away that feature on a more expensive scope , interesting

It's not true 500uV/div - it's just 1mV/div mathematically enlarged. So it's not that much of a feature.

[rf-loop]

@Altemir

I have one question about page 1. table and calculations.  I know there may be different opinions about this but I will ask exactly Altamir opinion.

(this table: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/?action=dlattach;attach=75877;image   )


There is
Samplerate 4G
2ns/div
"sample size" 700  (700 samples = 1 waveform lenght ?)
Blind time 0.981

waveform update rate / s (wfms/s) meaning is afaik qcquired and displayed waveform / s.

But what is blind time (invisible time amount from total time)

4GSa/s  is  8 sample points in one dvision with this 2ns/div.
Rigol display is 14 divs. It means that visible waveform lenght is 112 datapoints.

With this setting you have measured 106790 wfms/s
1 waveform in every ~9360ns
Blind time (for user eye)  is 9248ns and visible time is 112ns.
If total time is 1 then visible time is 0.01197


Question: what you think which one is visible (not blind) time. 112 sampled points time or 700 sampled (but mainly not visible) points time.

Which one is better in practice for user: Real time displayed part from total time or acquired part from total time (if they are not equal)

In this case it is not big deal 112 in 700 but some scopes may have much more. Example oscilloscope where is 20k minimum memory, 1GSa/s sampolerate max and example 2ns/div timescale and if 14 divisions wide it have 28 sample points visible and 19972 sample points invisible (but acquired). How it is wise to calculate blind time. Do it need think visible part or whole captured part.
If I use oscilloscope for some rare glitches I will mostly watch screen or leave it with infinite persistence. (also it do not work mostly for this part what is outside of display memory)

I vote displayed sample size.

Ref: http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/dl_downloads/dl_application/application_notes/1er02/1ER02_1e.pdf

[marmad]

Question: what you think which one is visible (not blind) time. 112 sampled points time or 700 sampled (but mainly not visible) points time.

His sample sizes in his charts are incorrect at the lower time bases. When the Rigol displays '700*', it means it's sampling <= 700, which means at 2ns/div, it's sampling 112 points.

I vote displayed sample size.

I would tend to agree with you - except in the case of segments, when you can zoom out to replay the full sample size.

Ref: http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/dl_downloads/dl_application/application_notes/1er02/1ER02_1e.pdf

Although Rohde-Schwarz calculates blind-time based on the full sample size - Agilent is the company that calculates based on displayed sample size.

[rf-loop]

His sample sizes in his charts are incorrect at the lower time bases. When the Rigol displays '700*', it means it's sampling <= 700, which means at 2ns/div, it's sampling 112 points.

Ok, good.  Without this information I was wondering. 

I would tend to agree with you - except in the case of segments, when you can zoom out to replay the full sample size.

Yes, segmented memory acquired is different case because it is not realtime watching.
It can run zoomed in/out vertically and horizontally (depending scope) and analyze segment by segment or segment groups stepping for more easy finding exeptions.

Although Rohde-Schwarz calculates blind-time based on the full sample size - Agilent is the company that calculates based on displayed sample size.

Yes, this was in my mind. And link to R&S because all know Agilent but R&S is not so widely known all aound of world (pity).

[samertje]

Hey eveyone,

I'm trying to upgrade my DS4014.
I upgraded the firmware and got 00.02.01.00.03

Ultra sigma doesn't give me a large HEX. I' really lost, I'm jut a noob learning electronics.
Please help

Sam

[MrKrabs]

Hey eveyone,

I'm trying to upgrade my DS4014.
I upgraded the firmware and got 00.02.01.00.03

Ultra sigma doesn't give me a large HEX. I' really lost, I'm jut a noob learning electronics.
Please help

Sam

Just install my patched firmware. It's at http://gotroot.ca/rigol/:

http://gotroot.ca/rigol/DS4000Update.00.02.01.00.03.MrKrabs.GEL.zip

Here's my original message (buried in that huge thread )

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/msg369754/#msg369754