Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China

[core]

Batterfly has the 40% off promotion. I really don't understand why Batronix can't match the price.

Right now they can ...   

Wow !!! And adding the Batterfly's BF 10%  ... that is something ...
It's not available in stock, so must be checked if can be ordered.

[ebastler]

Batterfly has the 40% off promotion. I really don't understand why Batronix can't match the price.

Right now they can ...   

Did you ask Batronix and they confirmed the price? Strange that they did not mention it yesterday when I checked with them. They can't be that desperate for these sales, probably not much margin left for them...

Batterfly does indeed apply their 10% discount on top of the -40%, resulting in a 46% discount in total. Not bad at all! Next step will be "buy one, get one free". 

[skander36]

Did you ask Batronix and they confirmed the price? Strange that they did not mention it yesterday when I checked with them. They can't be that desperate for these sales, probably not much margin left for them...

Batterfly does indeed apply their 10% discount on top of the -40%, resulting in a 46% discount in total. Not bad at all! Next step will be "buy one, get one free". 

Do you think that Batronix will display a price and ask you for another at checkout?

[Antonio90]

It's updated on their page.
You can buy it directly without asking for best price (unless you want them to match the 10% batterfly discount).

[core]

I have already ordered 1074 from rigol.eu, and set the payment.
I was too fast 

[ebastler]

It's updated on their page.
You can buy it directly without asking for best price (unless you want them to match the 10% batterfly discount).

Thanks, I had not looked further than the DHO1000 series overview page on Batronix.com, which still shows the regular list prices. Yes, asking for the additional 10% discount requires sending them an email.

Ah, well, I already ordered from Amazon yesterday after Batronix told me "sorry, no can do". No extra 10%, but I get an extended return period until end of January. Which is nice considering that I will only start playing with the scope after Christmas. (Well, probably on Christmas eve to be honest...  )

[tszaboo]

Depending on your setup, a BNC T could work to avoid the stickout.
I'm 90% sure I'd blow up the 50R input at some point if it were internal. So easy to put 12V DC into the scope at the wrong time.

I have sometimes used a BNC T + terminator in a pinch. But the termination/match is not as good, and they tend to get in the way of the knobs on most of the input jacks.

Where did Thorlabs find a 5 kOhm terminator for that photo? 

It's because the scope input is still going to be 1Mohm  || 14pf for example. So you have a transmission line with a small stub with a open and a capacitor on the end of it. The -3dB point with 50Ohm is 500MHz for such a system, ignoring the reflections, standing waves and other issues due to the stub. There are through terminations for Tektronix scopes that are specific to the scope, that supposed to push this out a little further with some compensation in the 50 Ohm, but it's not ideal at all.

[thm_w]

It's because the scope input is still going to be 1Mohm  || 14pf for example. So you have a transmission line with a small stub with a open and a capacitor on the end of it. The -3dB point with 50Ohm is 500MHz for such a system, ignoring the reflections, standing waves and other issues due to the stub. There are through terminations for Tektronix scopes that are specific to the scope, that supposed to push this out a little further with some compensation in the 50 Ohm, but it's not ideal at all.

Was able to reach -3dB of ~680MHz with a T junction and 50R (MSO5000 1MOhm + 17pF in), but maybe that was my limiting factor, I'll have to try again with a through and see if there is any difference in the response.

Looks like DHO1000 is 1MOhm + 19pF, slightly higher.

[ebastler]

I received my DHO1074 today and decided that a quick pre-Christmas incoming inspection was in order. 

The unit I got (from Rigol Europe via Amazon) was manufactured in December 2022, calibrated in January, and still came with the original firmware 2.04. So as we suspected, these have not been flying off the shelves at list price...

After upgrading to firmware 2.11, self-calibration did a better job than it had before -- no more offset errors, which were up to 100 µV with the original firmware. I also managed to actually get 2 GSa/s sampling rate with the updated firmware, much to my relief -- acquisition always seemed to run at half the advertised rate before?!

Not sure what's going on with the options. The scope tells me I have "limited" 200 MHz and 100 MPts options, but they don't seem to be active at all? Anyway, I intend to un-limit them after Christmas...

The screen and LEDs are plenty bright for my taste and lighting conditions; I reduced the screen brightness to 75% and wish I could do the same for the LEDs. The optical encoders feel great and the UI's response to user interactions -- whether via the touch screen or controls -- is very smooth. So the scope fully lives up to the expectations I had based on videos.

I like the UI very much; the dual flex knobs with their dynamic change of function based on which dialog fields you touch works great for me. Startup time is only 30 seconds, quite a bit faster than the DHO800/900, presumably due to a faster CPU and/or flash disk.

Fan noise is the fly in the ointment for me. The dual fans are quite noisy indeed: I can't hear whether my SDG2042X is on or off when the DHO is running next to it, and that signal genererator is not the quietest of instruments. My Korad power supplies, when running under load, can get louder than the DHO  -- but that is not an ambitious comparison...

After Christmas I will definitely try the PWM adjustment to reduce the fan speed. For now, the scope is going back into its box and I will do my best to forget about it and be pleasantly surprised a month from now! 

[Martin72]

I will do my best to forget about it and be pleasantly surprised a month from now!

 

Boot time:

When I was looking for my old test posts from the 4204 in this thread yesterday, I also noticed that I had only measured just over half a minute back then.
It's not the CPU, it's the same for all 12 bit models (6-core), the memory too.
I also have to say that I measured a significantly longer time on the 804 on the first start than on the subsequent starts.
Maybe the scope has something "up its sleeve".

[ebastler]

It's not the CPU, it's the same for all 12 bit models (6-core), the memory too.
I also have to say that I measured a significantly longer time on the 804 on the first start than on the subsequent starts.
Maybe the scope has something "up its sleeve".

The Rockchip CPU might be the same, I did not check the teardown videos. But didn't the DHO1000 and 4000 have a special chip for the boot disk (FORESEE brand or such), while the 800 and 900 switched to a regular SD card? Maybe there is a speed difference in these?

Alternatively, maybe the newer firmware in the 800/900 does additional stuff upon boot which takes more time, and which will show up in the 1000/4000 in a future firmware release. But they can't do much self-calibration there, with a scope that is not warmed up yet and has undefined signals at its inputs -- hence it seems unlikely that Rigol have found new ways to spend 15 extra seconds there.

[Martin72]

The Rockchip CPU might be the same

Is the same, FPGA is different.

Maybe there is a speed difference in these?

That's right, the 1000/4000 don't have an SD card, that's probably why the 800/900 take longer to boot.
If you have to load content from the SD card, that's the bottleneck, as lame as the transfer from there is.

[Svannie]

Hi, I'm on my way to buying my first oscilloscope. and the question is, will the HDO1074 be good for use on hifi audio equipment or is the HDO914s a better candidate with bode plot possibility ?

[ebastler]

Hi, I'm on my way to buying my first oscilloscope. and the question is, will the HDO1074 be good for use on hifi audio equipment or is the HDO914s a better candidate with bode plot possibility ?

The DHO1000 series will give you even better resolution when needed, since it has 14 and 16 bit modes. (Using averaging/interpolation, at a reduced bandwidth, but certainly covering the audio range.) You could still use it for automated Bode plots, but would need to combine it with an external signal generator and a computer which runs a script to drive the generator & scope via SCPI commands -- awkward.

The DHO914s has everything in one package. You may already have found here on the forum that its Bode plotting capability is still faulty at this time (showing periodic amplitude wiggles which are not there), but I think it's fair to assume that Rigol will fix this soon via a firmware update. Whether you are comfortable with the smaller screen is a decision only you can make...

Specifically for HiFi audio work on a budget, you can also use a sound card for Bode plots -- and much more, like THD measurements. 24 bits instead of a measly 12 or 16! There is various PC software around to use sound cards for these measurements. HPW Works is well-established but expensive; I personally like https://www.audiotester.de/, which has also been around for decades now and costs only 39€.

My personal preference would be a DHO1000 as a general measurement tool (with good resolution and a very nice big screen), and the AudioTester + decent USB-connected sound "card" for audio-range Bode plots, FFT, THD measurements etc.

Better make your mind up quickly regarding the DHO1000, since the 40% discount ends tomorrow...

[TurboTom]

Hi, I'm on my way to buying my first oscilloscope. and the question is, will the HDO1074 be good for use on hifi audio equipment or is the HDO914s a better candidate with bode plot possibility ?

I had the chance to "play" with both the mentioned scopes. IMO, the HDO914S isn't a finished product yet, the bode plot function doesn't only produce erroneous results, it also lacks all kinds of features which make it appear to be a half-baked afterthought add-on. The HDO914 / 804 as an oscilloscope is a nice little gadget with basically all that one can whish for from an entry-level instrument. But...it's small and the reduced resolution (1024x600) screen together with the user interface that it inherited from it's larger siblings (DHO1000 / 4000) - (1280x800) makes the screen always look somewhat busy, especially when several windows are used. Rigol will probably get the initial problems sorted eventually, but how long that may take is unknown to us.

What I learned over time using chinese T&M gear is to never expect anything over and above of what you actually get upon purchase. Serious bugs usually get ironed out, and sometimes even add-ons or improvements are provided, but don't consider this for granted. Usually, the instruments selling in the highest numbers are better off while less common gear may get almost no update coverage, even for obvious bugs (Rigol M300 current measurement switching scheme).

Since I enjoyed the U/I and features of the DHO914S quite a lot, and with the unexpected black-friday offer for the DHO1074, I went for it and so far didn't regret it. It's so much more a "Real" scope than the 800/900 series. I also prefer not to have the additional USB PSU box laying around with its potential interference problems. As @ebastler told, bode plotting will require some work, but in all other details it's on-par or better than the 800/900 instruments. And what I really like: it doesn't have this stenching smell of "hot electronics" that the DHO914S emanated -- and that didn't appear to get any less while I had it for evaluation, which may be a real issue when you have your lab in a residential room.

So my recommendation is clear: If workbench space isn't a concern, get the DHO1074 at the "black friday discount", improve it to full DHO1204 capabilities with memory extension  (how to do this can be found here in the "hacking" thread) and use a work-around for bode plotting if you really need it.

[Fungus]

Specifically for HiFi audio work on a budget, you can also use a sound card for Bode plots -- and much more, like THD measurements. 24 bits instead of a measly 12 or 16! There is various PC software around to use sound cards for these measurements. HPW Works is well-established but expensive; I personally like https://www.audiotester.de/, which has also been around for decades now and costs only 39€.

Download the software for the Analog Discovery. It works with a sound card for free.

[Fungus]

it doesn't have this stenching smell of "hot electronics" that the DHO914S emanated -- and that didn't appear to get any less while I had it for evaluation

That was bad, yes.

FWIW mine doesn't smell any more. For the first week I left it powered on in the spare room when not in use and that just about fixed it. Any residual is now gone.

[ebastler]

Quick question to the DHO1074 owners: During the brief pre-Christmas check of my new scope, I noticed that the fastest time base setting was 5 ns/div. (With firmware version 2.11.)

The datasheet states 2 ns/div though. Does that only get unlocked together with the bandwidth upgrade, or is something wrong here?

Actually, while I'm at it: The display of the options status is unclear to me. When it says "Limit" for the 100 MPts and 200 MHz upgrades, does that mean that I (still) have time-limited access to the option, or that the limit has been reached and the option is no longer available? In my case, neither option is usable, and that was the state right out of the box.

[TurboTom]

2ns/div is the limit with F/V 00.02.12 (don't know if relevant) and the bandwidth upgrade to 200MHz active. My take on the "Limit" notification is that this optional feature is blocked. Otherwise I'ld expect "Trial" to be displayed with the remaining time counting down. Yet, I don't know if Rigol provides trial periods for options on these instruments.

[ebastler]

2ns/div is the limit with F/V 00.02.12 (don't know if relevant) and the bandwidth upgrade to 200MHz active. My take on the "Limit" notification is that this optional feature is blocked. Otherwise I'ld expect "Trial" to be displayed with the remaining time counting down. Yet, I don't know if Rigol provides trial periods for options on these instruments.

Thanks! Do you recall, by any chance, whether you could get down to 2 ns/div before you did the bandwidth upgrade? I want to keep good Christmas etiquette and not start the hacking before I have officially received by present.  

Being limited to 5 ns/div comes as a surprise in any case -- the datasheet certainly suggests that the 2 ns/div setting is available for all versions of the DHO1000, independent of bandwidth. Although one can make a case that it is not too relevant in a scope with 5 ns risetime.

The user manual states in chapter 4.9 that the instrument comes with trial versions of the options, which get activated upon first power-on and then last for 36 hours (of operation, I assume). Hence I was wondering whether seeing all options in "Limit" status, and apparently inactive, was what is to be expected.

[gburdzin]

I am on FW 2.11, and the lower limit for me is 5ns/div.  I have the 1104 and my BW is currently not upgraded, because I can't get the upgrade to work 

[mm1]

DHO1104 unlocked to 200MHz  FW 2.11  -> 2ns/div

[ebastler]

Thanks TurboTom, gburdzin and mm1!

Your respective scope configurations nicely cover the possible firmware and bandwidth combinations. So it seems that unlocking 200 MHz bandwidth is required to enable 2ns/div, while both FW 2.11 and 2.12 support it.

[gburdzin]

Do you mind sharing the method you used to unlock the BW of the DHO1104?

[Martin72]

Look at the hacking thread.