Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China

[Antonio90]

Rigol shop is selling the 1072 for 486€, the 1074 for 700€ on amazon.de incl. VAT and shipping.
That's incredibly cheap, but I don't think it means anything except that you probably get an HDO instead of a DHO.
This will just be a sale of leftover stock with the old designation.

https://www.amazon.de/HDO1072-Digitaloszilloskop-EXT-Kanal-1-500-000-Touch-Display/dp/B0BJ2NYKNL?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1

Is it really that cheap provided the DHO800 exist? I'm genuinely asking. The DHO800 Is already "200" Mhz. It's 300 bucks for a bigger screen and 750MS/s more. ¿Or does it have more features? If it had the 50Ohm path active I would probably buy it  but I really am not sure right now.

[ebastler]

Is it really that cheap provided the DHO800 exist? I'm genuinely asking. The DHO800 Is already "200" Mhz. It's 300 bucks for a bigger screen and 750MS/s more. ¿Or does it have more features? If it had the 50Ohm path active I would probably buy it  but I really am not sure right now.

It also has a 50% higher waveform update rate, more memory, CAN and LIN triggers. Nothing revolutionary, but it makes it a bit more powerful.

And the form factor has some other niceties besides the large screen, which you may or may not find relevant: Second USB host port, connectors for 10 MHz reference In/Out, and a "proper" built-in power supply.

[ebastler]

Rigol shop is selling the 1072 for 486€, the 1074 for 700€ on amazon.de incl. VAT and shipping.

Prices for both models have now been increased to about 830€, which is the regular list price for the 1072. Strange -- according to their "xx left in stock" info they have only sold a single 1074 during the promotion so far.

Edit: Maybe they had just jumped the gun and activated the discount too early? Their Black Friday sale is only meant to be active November 24-30.

[2N3055]

Rigol shop is selling the 1072 for 486€, the 1074 for 700€ on amazon.de incl. VAT and shipping.
That's incredibly cheap, but I don't think it means anything except that you probably get an HDO instead of a DHO.
This will just be a sale of leftover stock with the old designation.

https://www.amazon.de/HDO1072-Digitaloszilloskop-EXT-Kanal-1-500-000-Touch-Display/dp/B0BJ2NYKNL?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1

Is it really that cheap provided the DHO800 exist? I'm genuinely asking. The DHO800 Is already "200" Mhz. It's 300 bucks for a bigger screen and 750MS/s more. ¿Or does it have more features? If it had the 50Ohm path active I would probably buy it  but I really am not sure right now.

DHO800 undersamples at 4 ch enabled. It's screen is tiny.
If I personally would have to chose between DHO800 and DHO1000 at that price difference I would certainly get the 1000.

Just screen size is huge difference in usability. Better sampling helps a lot. 1000 has more memory. Better time base accuracy and stability. It has Hires Mode. 1000 has specification for EXT trigger jitter.
As for analytic functions, they are both pretty much equal. 100 can show 14 measurements instead of 10. If unhacked both, 1000 has few more protocol decodes.. It will have better specs connected with sampling speed. For instance faster detection in peak mode. It will have more Wfms/s. It has propper  power supply. Etc....
It is a better scope in many details.

Download datasheets and compare. If difference is worth the money for you is up to you to decide.

[DaneLaw]

Would be tricky to see where the DHO1000U should land price-wise if its just neutered DHO1000 and doesn't bring anything new, now that Rigol is dumping the DH01000 series below 490 EU/US with tax & delivery in US & Europe. (2CH) and in Europe, the DHO1072 (486EU) is quite close to the MSRP of a DHO802 (435 euro)

Not many vendors would use such a logic.. as you're getting high on your own supply, and undermining the market for coming products if there are no standout features for the DHO1000U series..and I cant see Rigol adjusting prices in the DHO800 series, so close to release... would leave a lot of buyers with a bad taste.

[Antonio90]

Would be tricky to see where the DHO1000U should land price-wise if its just neutered DHO1000 and doesn't bring anything new, now that Rigol is dumping the DH01000 series below 490 EU/US with tax & delivery in US & Europe. (2CH) and in Europe, the DHO1072 (486EU) is quite close to the MSRP of a DHO802 (435 euro)

Not many vendors would use such a logic.. as you're getting high on your own supply, and undermining the market for coming products if there are no standout features for the DHO1000U series..and I cant see Rigol adjusting prices in the DHO800 series, so close to release... would leave a lot of buyers with a bad taste.

It's quite strange. Maybe they are just trying to flood the market before the arrival of the SDS1000X-HD? I really don't know if that makes sense at all, and I'm afraid the Siglent is going to be quite a bit more expensive, and might not be easily hackable, maybe oriented at a different market.

Or maybe Ebastler is right and they are going to put out a MSO with AWG and LA, dumping the DHO1000 as the BOM doesn't make economic sense right now.
The 1000U would be the cheaper substitute with long-term sales in mind.

[ebastler]

[...] dumping the DHO1000 as the BOM doesn't make economic sense right now.
The 1000U would be the cheaper substitute with long-term sales in mind.

That would be my guess. The DHO1000 probably did not sell well at its list price, especially since the DHO800 is out and so much cheaper. The fact that distributors who sell both, Rigol and Siglent, were formerly barred from selling the DHO1000 series but have now been allowed to do so, also points in that direction.

The 1000U can probably be sold at a price point close to the discounted DHO1000 Black Friday offer. Besides the stripped-down memory and waveform rate, I would also expect that it has lost the internal 50 Ohm paths (which were not enabled anyway) and the optical encoders. Maybe it has transitioned to SD-card flash too? That must be cheaper if it's in the 800 series...

[DaneLaw]

Rigol shop is selling the 1072 for 486€, the 1074 for 700€ on amazon.de incl. VAT and shipping.

Prices for both models have now been increased to about 830€, which is the regular list price for the 1072. Strange -- according to their "xx left in stock" info they have only sold a single 1074 during the promotion so far.

Edit: Maybe they had just jumped the gun and activated the discount too early? Their Black Friday sale is only meant to be active November 24-30.

The low price on the DHO1072 is still active in some of the European Amazon warehouses.
Rigol's DHO1000 campaign seems to be pretty widespread.
Japan.. its -50% across the DHO1000 palette.
Rigol-official/JP DHO1072 incl. JP-VAT is around 430 Euro (70.400yen)

Add-ons like AWG/MSO would flip the picture 180*.. it is weirdly missing atm. - having it on a 7" 16/9 screen like the DHO900/S series seems far from ideal, if they gonna have 3 lines with a big 10.1 screen.. - it could be where the logic is buried, and why Rigol is confident that the DHO1000U is gonna create its own market, no matter what price-adjustment they do on the DHO1000 series, if the DHO1000U is close to being a DHO900/S just with a 10.1 screen alongside some of the fundamentals of the DHO1000-line' which would be a welcome for the MSO, not least the sample rate..

[2N3055]

If we are going to speculate, to me, it seems that Rigol has no defined strategy at all, from what I can observe.
They now have portofolio of 16 active scope models (with subdivisions in BW added):

DS1000D/E
DS1000Z/Plus
DS1000Z-E
DS2000A
MSO2000A
MSO5000E
MSO5000
DS7000
MSO7000
MSO8000
MSO8000A
DS70000
DHO800
DHO900
DHO1000
DHO4000

R&S has 9 lines, including portable ones. Siglent has 10 including portable ones. Keysight has 11 lines, from Infiniivision 1000X to 110GHz Infiniium UXR–B. LeCroy has 11 (if we disregards Siglent rebadges) from 3000Z to 65 GHz Wavemaster and LabMasters.
All these manufacturers have careful positioning of all those to match full gamut.

Rigol made chipset and were under extreme pressure to use it for something and they simply made random 4 scopes.
These scopes are de facto marketing research for them.
They will see how well it goes, what people are complaining about and then kill some and make some new models.
They will sell some, make some money... Move on.

This is how it looks to me... A completely reactive approach, with no visible long term strategy..
It is complete mystery what they are doing..

[Antonio90]

I don't get why the price is increased in Amazon Germany and not on the rest of the EU countries.
They are all sold by RIGOL EU.

[Antonio90]

If we are going to speculate, to me, it seems that Rigol has no defined strategy at all, from what I can observe.
They now have portofolio of 16 active scope models (with subdivisions in BW added):

DS1000D/E
DS1000Z/Plus
DS1000Z-E
DS2000A
MSO2000A
MSO5000E
MSO5000
DS7000
MSO7000
MSO8000
MSO8000A
DS70000
DHO800
DHO900
DHO1000
DHO4000

R&S has 9 lines, including portable ones. Siglent has 10 including portable ones. Keysight has 11 lines, from Infiniivision 1000X to 110GHz Infiniium UXR–B. LeCroy has 11 (if we disregards Siglent rebadges) from 3000Z to 65 GHz Wavemaster and LabMasters.
All these manufacturers have careful positioning of all those to match full gamut.

Rigol made chipset and were under extreme pressure to use it for something and they simply made random 4 scopes.
These scopes are de facto marketing research for them.
They will see how well it goes, what people are complaining about and then kill some and make some new models.
They will sell some, make some money... Move on.

This is how it looks to me... A completely reactive approach, with no visible long term strategy..
It is complete mystery what they are doing..

It is certainly quite strange. I also especulate that some of the DHO lineups will be abandoned rather quickly, or at least they will stop selling them.
My bet is the DHO1000. The DHO900 doesn't look very good either.
I don't know about the 4000, and the 800 seems like a really nice scope for the price.

[David Hess]

If we are going to speculate, to me, it seems that Rigol has no defined strategy at all, from what I can observe.
They now have portofolio of 16 active scope models (with subdivisions in BW added):

...

This is how it looks to me... A completely reactive approach, with no visible long term strategy..
It is complete mystery what they are doing..

I was thinking that Rigol considers their development and design teams expendable, so that they effectively start over with each new series.

[ebastler]

If we are going to speculate, to me, it seems that Rigol has no defined strategy at all, from what I can observe.
They now have portofolio of 16 active scope models (with subdivisions in BW added):

Part of the reason why the list is so long is just naming conventions. Defining DHO800 and 900 as separate families rather than just versions of the same product is a bit artificial -- the main thing it achieves is to create a clearer "hacking boundary" between the two, it seems, where additional encoders and maximum bandwidth are not easily hackable. Likewise with the MSO5000E as a separate model, which could also have been part of the MSO5000 lineup.

Another part of the reason is that they seem to never discontinue a product line.  

Rigol made chipset and were under extreme pressure to use it for something and they simply made random 4 scopes.

Again, I'd say its closer to 3 DHO scope lines, and that does not seem unreasonable. The naming conventions have shifted a bit; the product lines would normally be 1000, 2000 and 4000/5000 (in the prior Rigol portfolio or competing brands). But the decision to launch LA and AWG functionality first in the low-end product is very strange indeed...

[Antonio90]

But the decision to launch LA and AWG functionality first in the low-end product is very strange indeed...

¿Maybe they want free beta-testing before releasing them in a more expensive scope?

[ebastler]

I was thinking that Rigol considers their development and design teams expendable, so that they effectively start over with each new series.

What makes you say that? There clearly is a platform strategy across the DHO 800/900, 1000 and 4000 software and hardware. Compared to the prior generation of products there is a lot of new development, transitioning to new ADCs, touch screens and OS. But the prior generation's architecture dates back 9 years or so, so that effort seems adequate.

[2N3055]

If we are going to speculate, to me, it seems that Rigol has no defined strategy at all, from what I can observe.
They now have portofolio of 16 active scope models (with subdivisions in BW added):

Part of the reason why the list is so long is just naming conventions. Defining DHO800 and 900 as separate families rather than just versions of the same product is a bit artificial -- the main thing it achieves is to create a clearer "hacking boundary" between the two, it seems, where additional encoders and maximum bandwidth are not easily hackable. Likewise with the MSO5000E as a separate model, which could also have been part of the MSO5000 lineup.

Another part of the reason is that they seem to never discontinue a product line.  

Rigol made chipset and were under extreme pressure to use it for something and they simply made random 4 scopes.

Again, I'd say its closer to 3 DHO scope lines, and that does not seem unreasonable. The naming conventions have shifted a bit; the product lines would normally be 1000, 2000 and 4000/5000 (in the prior Rigol portfolio or competing brands). But the decision to launch LA and AWG functionality first in the low-end product is very strange indeed...

These models are exactly that: different products.

800/900 are different products. Literally. It is not like they made 800 MSO with option to enable MSO. That would have been smart. But no, the made two different products. Case is different, BOM is different, FW is different. 
What I listed is literally 16 different production lines...
What about MSO8000 and MSO8000A? They are completely identical, but 8000A has bigger BW (600 vs 750 and 1 vs 1.5 GHz), even though it cannot satisfy Nyquist for all 4 ch for anything than base model..
Or MSO7000 and DS7000 ? Same scope but MSO deleted in hardware. I don't think difference in BOM is worth supporting two product lines.

Most manufacturers are putting in a great effort to NOT do this because it makes sense. No wonder they have problem finishing products and developing FW to maturity.

And you are correct, they are doing it upside down: they never stop selling old products but they stop developing FW (or at least drop it to very low level).

[2N3055]

I was thinking that Rigol considers their development and design teams expendable, so that they effectively start over with each new series.

What makes you say that? There clearly is a platform strategy across the DHO 800/900, 1000 and 4000 software and hardware. Compared to the prior generation of products there is a lot of new development, transitioning to new ADCs, touch screens and OS. But the prior generation's architecture dates back 9 years or so, so that effort seems adequate.

They made new GUI for 1000Z/2000/4000 series.
Then they transitioned (completely from the scratch) to their 1st gen chipset and new GUI and touchscreens. That was 5000/7000/8000 series.

And they kept pretty much nothing from that for new DHO series. DHO series actually seem to run GUI that is something similar to their 70000 series devices.

Now they have active 4 generations of hardware:
1000D/E
1000Z /2000A
5000/7000/8000/8000A
DHOxxx/xxxx

[tautech]

It's quite strange. Maybe they are just trying to flood the market before the arrival of the SDS1000X-HD? I really don't know if that makes sense at all, and I'm afraid the Siglent is going to be quite a bit more expensive, and might not be easily hackable, maybe oriented at a different market.

Hmmm, mine arrived without options but has all now. 

[Antonio90]

It's quite strange. Maybe they are just trying to flood the market before the arrival of the SDS1000X-HD? I really don't know if that makes sense at all, and I'm afraid the Siglent is going to be quite a bit more expensive, and might not be easily hackable, maybe oriented at a different market.

Hmmm, mine arrived without options but has all now. 

Good to hear 

[NE666]

they never stop selling old products but they stop developing FW (or at least drop it to very low level).

I think you are too generous.  "Developing" would imply good industry practices like a solid software release management process, including a consistent release cadence, useful release notes, proper attention to package verification and the correct application of semantic version numbers.

Based on my experience of Rigol FW/SW updates so far, I'd say "farting out software" myself.

[Martin72]

It's almost like 2N3055 wrote it, his assumption.
Rigol throws a few models on the market and the model that hits the nerve and sells well is halfway maintained.
See DS1000z and MSO5000.
These have probably received the most updates.
The MSO5000 in particular was a hit, 8GSa/s max and a fully-fledged 2-channel AWG except for the output level, you won't find that anywhere in this price range to this day.
But these were lucky hits, Rigol doesn't seem to know any model strategy or even proper model maintenance.
Now the new 12Bit models, starting with the 4000/1000 models a year ago.
I had a 4204 to test at the beginning of this year and now for a few weeks the 804.
And I was surprised that nothing has changed in terms of the software.
Especially as a 4000 owner I would feel like a fool, except for the hires mode and a few more decoders, the biggest model is no different from the smallest.
On the other hand, you could have used the year to incorporate various improvements and additions, this is not the case.
So the feeling remains that Rigol has simply released a few "prototypes" and the "real ones" are yet to come, with customers serving as beta testers.
This is simply not serious behavior.
Of the four models, two of which I know, I think the 800 series is the most suitable.
The price/performance ratio is right (apart from the current 40% less promotion on the 1000).

[NE666]

I agree with that assessment.

Rigol's PM and PMO team's must be non-existent, asleep at their desk, or labouring under a very different impression of their role and duties as compared to everyone else.  The question is, for how long can this go on before it starts to cut deep into their revenue and growth plans.

[Martin72]

https://www.batronix.com/versand/rigol/DHO1000.html

Batronix now has all 1000 models in stock (not yet last week), so I can hardly imagine that this is a discontinued model series.
Hm, or exactly because they didn't offer any 1000s for a year....

[tszaboo]

It's almost like 2N3055 wrote it, his assumption.
Rigol throws a few models on the market and the model that hits the nerve and sells well is halfway maintained.
See DS1000z and MSO5000.
These have probably received the most updates.
The MSO5000 in particular was a hit, 8GSa/s max and a fully-fledged 2-channel AWG except for the output level, you won't find that anywhere in this price range to this day.
But these were lucky hits, Rigol doesn't seem to know any model strategy or even proper model maintenance.
Now the new 12Bit models, starting with the 4000/1000 models a year ago.
I had a 4204 to test at the beginning of this year and now for a few weeks the 804.
And I was surprised that nothing has changed in terms of the software.
Especially as a 4000 owner I would feel like a fool, except for the hires mode and a few more decoders, the biggest model is no different from the smallest.
On the other hand, you could have used the year to incorporate various improvements and additions, this is not the case.
So the feeling remains that Rigol has simply released a few "prototypes" and the "real ones" are yet to come, with customers serving as beta testers.
This is simply not serious behavior.
Of the four models, two of which I know, I think the 800 series is the most suitable.
The price/performance ratio is right (apart from the current 40% less promotion on the 1000).

The MSO5000 is a really nice scope, the only missing feature is the 50 Ohm input. If it would have it I would've long bought one.
But that's reserved to the 7000 series, which is more than twice the price. I personally think this is a mistake.

[ebastler]

https://www.batronix.com/versand/rigol/DHO1000.html

Batronix now has all 1000 models in stock (not yet last week), so I can hardly imagine that this is a discontinued model series.
Hm, or exactly because they didn't offer any 1000s for a year....

Batronix unfortunately can't match Rigol's Black Friday discount on the DHO1074. Seems strange that Rigol Europe via their direct sales channel are undercutting their own distributors. (Via Amazon, the 1074 is now available at 713€ incl. VAT again for German customers as well.)

I just changed my mind and cancelled my SDS2104X Plus order, in favor of a DHO1074 at half the price. I am sacrificing the higher bandwidth and sampling rate of the SDS for the 12 bit (16 bit interpolated) resolution of the DHO, and for the UI which I really like on the large screen. I don't really need Bode plots, and will buy a DSLogic PC-based logic analyser later -- which costs about the same as the logic probe for the SDS. 

Let's see whether a hack to enable the 50 Ohm inputs will materialize eventually... Or maybe Rigol decides to make this available as an option, for better differentiation vs. the DHO800? Or the 50 Ohm inputs remain unusable forever, which would not be a catastrophe at 200 MHz max. bandwidth.