Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China

[aurel]

- Setting the time base to 5 ms/div results in a 200 kSa/s for both the main sampling rate and the FFT window => FFT display is cut after the 100 kHz point (above Nyquist)

You mean 'cut' like in this screenshot, nothing displayed?

Yep, exactly. Just as @skander36 showed in a HDO1K screenshot a few posts ago :
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-hdo1000-and-hdo4000-12bit-oscilloscopes-launched-in-china/msg4670623/#msg4670623

[Martin72]

Although...if batronix would lend me one....

Request made...

Get one(HDO4204)in the next days, batronix are simply "the best".

[tomud]

Although...if batronix would lend me one....

Request made...

Get one(HDO4204)in the next days, batronix are simply "the best".

  Well, I'm waiting for thorough tests and comparison of HDO4000 with SDS2000X HD...

[Martin72]

Hi,
When it arrives, with luck this week, I will be able to use it for about 3 weeks before batronix wants it back, for a trade show.
First, I'll take a closer look at how the build quality is, how loud the fans are, how good the display is, how sensitive the touchpanel is, how intuitive the menus are to use, etc.
But the main thing is:
Tell me what to test/compare, it will be "collected" and executed on the respective weekends.
I have the following signal sources at home:
Siglent SDG2122X
Siglent STB-3 Demoboard with numerous test signals including decoder signals.
Bodnar pulser
So start thinking about it, I'll let you know when the scope arrives....

[markone]

Hi,
When it arrives, with luck this week, I will be able to use it for about 3 weeks before batronix wants it back, for a trade show.
First, I'll take a closer look at how the build quality is, how loud the fans are, how good the display is, how sensitive the touchpanel is, how intuitive the menus are to use, etc.
But the main thing is:
Tell me what to test/compare, it will be "collected" and executed on the respective weekends.
I have the following signal sources at home:
Siglent SDG2122X
Siglent STB-3 Demoboard with numerous test signals including decoder signals.
Bodnar pulser
So start thinking about it, I'll let you know when the scope arrives....

Is it a "free" rent ?

I'm going to say something that you may already know : out of the box FANs are loud A LOT, the system push PWM regulation to 100% regardless the temperature, totally unacceptable but luckily there is the a SW cure.

Being obsessed by noise I went beyond swapping original ones with a couple of cheap SUNON 60x60x25 plus anti-vibration mounts, now it's very comfortable.

[Martin72]

Is it up to you as the customer to make the system silent ?
When I buy something new instead of DIY I expect not to play with it around.
Positive example:
My Silgent HD scope, it cames with a silent system out of the box, no improvements at the cost of warranty are needed.

Is it a "free" rent ?

Except of the shipping costs, yes.
Currently I´ve heard nothing new from them after their answer, let´s hope everything goes well.

[markone]

Is it up to you as the customer to make the system silent ?
When I buy something new instead of DIY I expect not to play with it around.

For sure not but there are example of noisy instruments for any brand, including your beloved Siglent  , i.e. the SDS1104X-E.

In the past I swapped FANs in many instruments, including a GW Instek the same day I opened the box, the noise was sooo weird.

In many cases the problem are vibration and it's enough to make use of rubber mounts, small FAN motors (<=60mm) do have very high torque ripple that usually resonate with metallic chassis.

Rigol HDO do have FAN PWM speed regulation but for some reason the scope push them at max regardless the actual internal temp, I studied the file system and everything is there but they messed with thermal system configuration.

The SW speed hack works but if you want the best possible result you have to mount rubber screw and 25mm deep fans as I did, but here we are in a quite subjective field.

I.e. a friend of mine that bought the 2 channel version on Amazon (850 euro shipped from DE depot exactly as mine bought from Rigolshop.eu) is more then happy with software speed hack.

Positive example:
My Silgent HD scope, it cames with a silent system of the box, no improvements at the cost of warranty are needed.

Your Siglent scope cost more than 3 times mine  , for sure with that kind of budget I would consider it in place of Rigol HDO4K and here I agree that Rigol have to make a better acoustic design with scopes on sale at certain price.

First step should be to drop 60mm fans in favor to 80mm or 120mm, the price to pay is instrument size, not a problem in my case.

Anyway, the noisiest  scope that I ever used is an old PC based Lecroy back in 2008, it seemed a vacuum cleaner and the exhaust air was sooo hot 

[Martin72]

Your Siglent scope cost more than 3 times mine 

The rigol HDO4000 also and it got the same fans...
And this is the point.
As the MSO5000 was launched, everyone wonders about how rigol could do that at this price.
8GSa/s, deep memory, 2-ch awg inbuild, etc etc.
The answer was simple, by using the cheapest materials around their new chipset.
Same on the HDO1000 - But also the same on the HDO4000...
The 3-times more expensive 4000 got the same quality like the 1000, same display, same fans, (nearly) same main pcb...
A bit pathetic.

[tautech]

Your Siglent scope cost more than 3 times mine 

The rigol HDO4000 also and it got the same fans...
And this is the point.
As the MSO5000 was launched, everyone wonders about how rigol could do that at this price.
8GSa/s, deep memory, 2-ch awg inbuild, etc etc.
The answer was simple, by using the cheapest materials around their new chipset.
Same on the HDO1000 - But also the same on the HDO4000...
The 3-times more expensive 4000 got the same quality like the 1000, same display, same fans, (nearly) same main pcb...
A bit pathetic.

More low cost options will be in the marketplace later this year. 

[markone]

Nice !

Siglent Armada is again active here, now we are going to enjoy with a fair review by Martin, who is notoriously impartial with Rigol and Siglent comparisons.

What a Joke.

[tomud]

Siglent Armada is again active here, now we are going to enjoy with a fair review by Martin, who is notoriously impartial with Rigol and Siglent comparisons.

What a Joke.

Hmm and why should Martin's review be dishonest ?
Martin obviously doesn't like having only one oscilloscope. He sold Siglent SDS200X Plus and Rigol MSO5000 unnecessarily

[2N3055]

Nice !

Siglent Armada is again active here, now we are going to enjoy with a fair review by Martin, who is notoriously impartial with Rigol and Siglent comparisons.

What a Joke.

Cynical much?

[Martin72]

who is notoriously impartial with Rigol and Siglent comparisons.

From what do you conclude that ?
Because I do not break out in complete enthusiasm about another Rigol scope?
Until now, I had always owned the scopes about which I dared to allow myself a greater judgment.
From Rigol I had DS1054Z, DS2072A, MSO5074.
For the latter I once joined the forum and if you would read my "old" posts, you would know how enthusiastic I was about the scope.
And still am, partly.
But then be equally "allowed" to be excited about the SDS2104X+.
From Siglent I had the SDS1104X-E, SDS2104X+ and now the SDS2104X+ HD.
None of the scopes mentioned is perfect, it depends on your own needs, but also expectations.
The HD, for example, is a step up from the "normal" Xplus.
But even that has features that I do not like so well, which I would like to see improved.
That's why there is also a corresponding thread for the Scope.
Plus things that can´t be improved.
I have larger newer Lecroy scopes at work to measure, so have a "higher-level" comparison of where the journey for Rigol and Siglent could go.
That's what I measure these scopes against, and to date Siglent is a little closer to that than Rigol.
And it's okay to say that without being accused of being biased or having reports cast into doubt before they've even been made.
That annoys me a bit right now.

Oh yes, feedback from batronix today, the HDO4204 will be shipped on monday.

[tomud]

I think everyone here wants Rigol to release good equipment and compete with Siglent.
It is a plus for us when companies compete with each other. Thanks to this, we have better and better equipment to buy and better prices.
Constructive criticism is to force companies to improve this equipment, because currently, both in terms of Rigol and Siglent, it is not always good with it.
Nobody does it out of malice or fanaticism towards any of the companies.

[ojete]

Your Siglent scope cost more than 3 times mine 

The rigol HDO4000 also and it got the same fans...
And this is the point.
As the MSO5000 was launched, everyone wonders about how rigol could do that at this price.
8GSa/s, deep memory, 2-ch awg inbuild, etc etc.
The answer was simple, by using the cheapest materials around their new chipset.
Same on the HDO1000 - But also the same on the HDO4000...
The 3-times more expensive 4000 got the same quality like the 1000, same display, same fans, (nearly) same main pcb...
A bit pathetic.

More low cost options will be in the marketplace later this year. 

Low cost options with 12 bit?

[teddychn]

I'm curious about the FFT record length of HDO or MSO5000 scopes. They can reach 1M points in it's datasheet. But in the manual, in fixed FFT point, there are just 65536 point at most. If they have an Auto mode to get 1M FFT point, or I misunderstood something?

[markone]

-snip
The 3-times more expensive 4000 got the same quality like the 1000, same display, same fans, (nearly) same main pcb...
A bit pathetic.

Rigol pathetic ?

This is exactly the same thing Siglent and everyone else are doing in most DSO lines, common HW base with small differentiation and SW upgrades that brings prices to a multiple of the base product.

So what's your point ?

MSO5K with cheapest materials .... 

MSO5K sells very well and right now Siglent has nothing that could compete, anyway the cheapest DSO materials that I saw in my life were rusty Siglent's chassis that David spotted many times during his teardown.

Dunno if you are conducting a personal crusade against Rigol or if you are part of Siglent marketing system or if you are getting something in exchange, for sure I do not expect an unbiased review from someone that defines Rigol the product under test as "pathetic" in advance.

[tautech]

MSO5K sells very well and right now Siglent has nothing that could compete, anyway the cheapest DSO materials that I saw in my life were rusty Siglent's chassis that David spotted many times during his teardown.

Oh FFS it seems you and Dave have not been around much as any guillotined galv steel plate will oxidize and I have a Tek TDS2012B right beside me that proudly displays the exact same chassis edge rust in the same way. 

However an early batch of faulty plated steel plate did get through QC many years back and Siglent learnt the lesson to more carefully check products their suppliers send them.

[Fungus]

The 3-times more expensive 4000 got the same quality like the 1000, same display, same fans, (nearly) same main pcb...

The HDO4204 is only about 50% more expensive than the HDO1204, not three times.

For that difference you get double the sample rate, power analysis functions and smart probe connectors.

[Martin72]

Yes that may well be true if I had referred to it, but I did not.
I was talking about the basics, the workmanship and the obviously same components that are used for both model series.
From that point of view, the difference is even greater than three times(699 to 2699).
If we want to cherry pick, then 2.7 times (999 to 2699), from 4-ch to 4-ch, then you´re right, it´s not three times.
When we (as you did) want to compare the feature benefits:

For that difference you get double the sample rate, power analysis functions and smart probe connectors.

Power analyzer is software only, just like the additional decoder options you can purchase for the 4000 - If they wanted to, the 1000 could have that too.
A "political" decision.
The double sample rate is due to the second chip that was soldered on.
The Smartprobe connectors are also just an additional board, all this does not justify the hefty surcharge and you still have the same quality as the incomparably cheaper 1000 model.
But on the other side, when I get the 4204 for testing, most of the points will be valid also for the 1000(except samplerate/bandwith)*
So I musn´t buy (or loan) a DHO1000 to "know" it.

*( yes I know, it got more memory..But that makes no difference at all.)

[Fungus]

A "political" decision.

Yep.

[Martin72]

Argh...
Batronix are as ever fast as lightening (don´t know how they do it), yesterday shipped, today arrived - But I was not there..
Tomorrow after work I´ll go and get it from the post office.
The curiosity rises up...

[Martin72]

Tadaa...

First impression without powering on (too cold, must wait):
It´s tiny...
My HD seems small and little but rigol is more tiny...Interesting, a new trend ?
Building quality/Look&Feel: Good !
Not equal to the HD but very very close to it, nothing negative to say about it.
To be continued.

[Martin72]

Couldn't wait until the weekend and turned it on earlier.
Positive:
Very fast booting and almost instant shutdown.
Negative: The fans are brute loud....
Of all the scopes I've had, these are the loudest.
The probes coming with are the same as the MSO5000 comes with, relative cheap ones, no probesense, only 350Mhz and switchable attentuation (I don´t like such probes).
Display is remarkable better than on the MSO5000, brighter and clearer - And you recognize the higher resolution immediately, graphics/icons are finer displayed - This point (Resolution)goes to rigol.

[Martin72]

Further things...
Menu style:
I like it! Very intuitive to use, everything you can do with is visible, no need to scroll or use underfolders.
First I thought, oh yes how fancy and useless the displayed schematic is, but then realize you can nearly touch everything there and a menu pops up.
Nice, really nice.
And I´ve found a bug inbetween a minute of running...Rigol won´t disappoint you 
Probesetting:
First I´ve set the probe to 10:1 then adjusting the probe with the ref signal.
Then playing around with the timebase and after this I´ve pressed the "Auto" button.
Scope takes the setting - And "kill" the 10:1 setting, now it´s 1:1...  Solved, see Reply#783
And there is something weird with the ultra aqcuire mode.
More to come in the next days.