Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China

[EEVblog]

https://ecmobile.rigol.com/goods-154.html
Price of 70MHz HDO1072 : 3999 CNY = 593 USD
They are going for the throat. Building your own ADC chipset has its perks.

Under US$600 for a 12bit 1.5Mwfm/s 100Mpt 10" 1280x800 screen scope that almost certainly will be hackable to 200MHz 
They'll have the market to themselves.

[Martin72]

Turns out I had an email from Rigol that I missed about this new scope.
I now have one on the way.

Which one, the 1000 ?

[adonishong]

Turns out I had an email from Rigol that I missed about this new scope.
I now have one on the way.

Have you get your new HDO toy? How is the performance? How is the high definition measurement works? and also the low noise background actrually performs?

[ojete]

I'm also interested in this oscilloscope, do you have something to tell us Dave?

[hhappy1]

I'm looking forward to it, too.
In Korea, the HDO product will be released in mid-November.

[maxwell3e10]

Posted on Rigol North America website now:

https://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/HDO1000/

https://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/HDO4000/

[Fungus]

$999 for the 1074? If that's hackable then we may have a new champion.

One thing that looks dodgy though is a 200Mhz, 4-channel option with only 1GSample/sec.

Let's hope that version can turn on an internal 100MHz bandwidth limiter when you turn on more than 2 channels.

[Martin72]

If that's hackable then we may have a new champion.

Hm-hm....

The specs of the 1000 left me a little bit confused.
The resolution of the screen and the 12 bit are truly a blast for this price, no doubt.
But the rest...MSO5000 owners musn´t get nervous.
Don´t know what rigols ideas were to give this puppy 1GSa/s MAX, with all channels active it drops down to "ancient" 250MSa/s....

[thm_w]

Yeah the price increase over the Chinese price we saw makes it slightly less appealing. Still good if you are into low level analog stuff though.
They are clearly using one ADC/ASIC on this, and then 4 ADCs for the HDO4000.

The wfm/s is 50,000 in "vector" mode but then there is another mode for the 1.5 million?

Max. Waveform Capture Rate
50,000 wfms/s (Vector Mode)
1,500,000 wfms/s (UltraAcquire Mode)

Does this mean there is some heavy processing going on, that is required for regular sampling. Or something else I'm missing.

[Fungus]

But the rest...MSO5000 owners musn´t get nervous.

It's the Siglent owners who should be nervous. They won't be able to say "But...noise!" any more. 

[tszaboo]

Did they forget the digital channels?

[tautech]

Did they forget the digital channels?

LOL, seems they did.

[Fungus]

Don´t know what rigols ideas were to give this puppy 1GSa/s MAX, with all channels active it drops down to "ancient" 250MSa/s....

That's plenty for a 100Mhz 'scope.

For 200MHz? Not so much, hence my previous comment.

It's OK if you're aware that it's there and can adjust your expectations but I bet a lot of buyers/hackers won't be that clued in.

Then again... it's not an uncommon situation in practice. A "100Mhz" SDS1104-XE has a measured analog bandwidth of about 200Mhz, so same thing... - not quite true, my bad. See below...

The trick is to be aware and limit yourself to two channels for the high frequency stuff. 

[Fungus]

Did they forget the digital channels?

LOL, seems they did.

But you get 12 bits in return. 

[Fungus]

They are clearly using one ADC/ASIC on this, and then 4 ADCs for the HDO4000.

Maybe it's a case of the boss saying "Can we build an entry-level 'scope with just one of those chips?"

[Martin72]

It's the Siglent owners who should be nervous. They won't be able to say "But...noise!" any more. 

It´s more than only the noise...
Much more.

[tautech]

A "100Mhz" SDS1104-XE has a measured analog bandwidth of about 200Mhz, so same thing...

Garbage ! 

It might seem you don't know the difference between real -3dB BW and what frequencies a DSO can detect, trigger on and display !
A SDS1104X-E real -3dB BW is ~120 MHz some 20% above its rated BW which is the norm for the industry but it can be down at just 10% above rated BW or in the case of a SDS2104X Plus ~85% above rated BW.

We must get this stuff correct for the viewers that come along later only to be confused by conflicting info. 

[thm_w]

Did they forget the digital channels?

I constantly point out that you can get a better PC based logic analyzer for less than half the cost of the logic option on a Siglent or a Rigol ($3-400+). Yes yes, I get that its not integrated and there are examples you can point out where it was useful. But PC based is better in terms of software, triggering, measuring, day to day design use, for me.
I would love to see the sales numbers for logic option on low end scopes though.

And yes, would be good if they could just pipe the data over USB to a probe, then no need for an extra hardware cost inside the scope.

[maxwell3e10]

$999 for the 1074? If that's hackable then we may have a new champion.

One thing that looks dodgy though is a 200Mhz, 4-channel option with only 1GSample/sec.

Let's hope that version can turn on an internal 100MHz bandwidth limiter when you turn on more than 2 channels.

HDO1000 doesn't look so much better than Owon XDS3000 series that has been around for a number of years. But HDO4000 is indeed quite promising. Even without hacking 800 MHz scope for less than $5k and with 12 bit resolution is a great deal. But I wouldn't hold by breath about the update rate until I see it tested. With Rigol's marketing 1.5M waveforms/sec probably applies for exactly one signal when the scope is oriented in north-south direction.

[Fungus]

A "100Mhz" SDS1104-XE has a measured analog bandwidth of about 200Mhz, so same thing...

Garbage ! 

Yep, I was mixing up your images. My bad.

The standard 100MHz model as supplied has about 140MHz bandwidth, it's only the hacked 'scopes that are getting over 200MHz.

( eg. here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dso-bandwidth-test-sds1104x-e-dsox1102g-to1104-gds1054b/msg2387379/#msg2387379 )

OTOH being able to hack it to 200MHz is a big selling point for that model... Nyquist be damned!

[tautech]

A "100Mhz" SDS1104-XE has a measured analog bandwidth of about 200Mhz, so same thing...

Garbage ! 

Yep, I was mixing up your images. My bad.

The standard 100MHz model as supplied has about 140MHz bandwidth, it's only the hacked 'scopes that are getting over 200MHz.

( eg. here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dso-bandwidth-test-sds1104x-e-dsox1102g-to1104-gds1054b/msg2387379/#msg2387379 )

OTOH being able to hack it to 200MHz is a big selling point for that model... Nyquist be damned!

Thanks for admitting your oversight. 

Yet because SDS1204X-E uses twin 1 GSa/s ADC's we can still obtain 5x oversampling with 2 active channels and maintain the magic 2.5 with all channels active to rated frequency therefore inviting neither Nyquist or Murphy to the party. 

[nctnico]

Don´t know what rigols ideas were to give this puppy 1GSa/s MAX, with all channels active it drops down to "ancient" 250MSa/s....

That's plenty for a 100Mhz 'scope.

Yep. But the HDO4000 drops to 1Gs/s with all channels enabled and that isn't enough to support 800MHz bandwidth. And no digital channels. WTF is Rigol doing here? It will be another bug-fest anyway for the foreseable future so 'meh'.

[2N3055]

Did they forget the digital channels?

I constantly point out that you can get a better PC based logic analyzer for less than half the cost of the logic option on a Siglent or a Rigol ($3-400+). Yes yes, I get that its not integrated and there are examples you can point out where it was useful. But PC based is better in terms of software, triggering, measuring, day to day design use, for me.
I would love to see the sales numbers for logic option on low end scopes though.

And yes, would be good if they could just pipe the data over USB to a probe, then no need for an extra hardware cost inside the scope.

And I keep repeating that PC based protocol analysers (popular USB types) are very good if you are debugging content of datagrams, i.e. debugging software side.

Triggering and measuring, signal integrity and precise timing correlation needs MSO. That is their whole reason for existence. Triggering on protocols (or anything else) is superb on even cheapest scopes compared to what most USB protocol analysers have.

If you are only working the software protocol stack on a hardware that is verified working on hardware side, yes, then USB protocol analyser is best tool by far...
If you are verifying timing and message content in relation to some real world event, then MSO...

And to repeat, popular Saleae USB devices that cost as much as MSO5000 have just basic level+simple digital combine trigger. They can't even trigger on a simple message..

MSO is useful. Very.

[EEVblog]

And to repeat, popular Saleae USB devices that cost as much as MSO5000 have just basic level+simple digital combine trigger. They can't even trigger on a simple message..

How does a Saleae cost the same as an MSO5000?

Aaaand then I checked, and damn, yeah, close. The MSO5000 is a bit more with the LA probe option, but the MSO5000 base model is US$1090 and the Saleae Pro 16CH is $1399 

BTW, there is a HDO4000 on the plane.

[tszaboo]

Did they forget the digital channels?

I constantly point out that you can get a better PC based logic analyzer for less than half the cost of the logic option on a Siglent or a Rigol ($3-400+). Yes yes, I get that its not integrated and there are examples you can point out where it was useful. But PC based is better in terms of software, triggering, measuring, day to day design use, for me.
I would love to see the sales numbers for logic option on low end scopes though.

And yes, would be good if they could just pipe the data over USB to a probe, then no need for an extra hardware cost inside the scope.

Those are not really an option if you want to debug a mixed signal system with your mixed signal oscilloscope. For example ADC settling times. Or an RS485 transceiver. You can connect TX, RX , D and just one of the differential signals to a 4 channel scope. Or any interface, which uses higher voltages than those USB thingies can accept. Or anything with ECL logic. Or an Ethernet interface. Or an NFC communication, which can be debugged even with a low end Keysight scope. Probably we could come up with another 50 use cases where an MSO is needed.