Rigol HDO1000 and HDO4000 12bit oscilloscopes launched in China

[EEVblog]

Looking at Dave's hdo1000 video, it shows 2Gs/s when it's a single channel.
The data sheet was announced as 1Gs/s.
Did Dave upgrade it?

Nope, out of the box, and on the label.

[hhappy1]

Looking at Dave's hdo1000 video, it shows 2Gs/s when it's a single channel.
The data sheet was announced as 1Gs/s.
Did Dave upgrade it?

Nope, out of the box, and on the label.

Oh~. I looked at the datasheet again and it changed.
Obviously, it was written as 1Gs/s - single channel.
It is now 2Gs/s - single channel.
Thank you.

[Fungus]

Looking at Dave's hdo1000 video...

Did Dave do the HDO1000?

[EEVblog]

Looking at Dave's hdo1000 video...

Did Dave do the HDO1000?

Only partially shot. Small snippet made it onto the 2nd channel.

[adonishong]

I guess the 2Gs/s upgrade is extra bonus for initial release.

[ojete]

It' would be really stupid to sell the first ones with 2Gs/s and then go down to 1Gs/s.
I think they wanted to sell a scope not "too good" and if you want more buy the HDO4000 and spend your money.
Maybe they saw the reaction of the people and realize that 1Gs/s is too low... or maybe the sales were not as good as they expected.

[Martin72]

From the hacking thread (we should leave it on topic):

Just did the HDO1000 teardown, and 
It's EXACTLY the same PCB as the HDO4000, minus one ADC!
Yes, that means full 800MHz front end with 50ohm even though the software doesn't support it.
Absolutely minor production changes, but it's clear they intend to use idenitical boards and parts. The profit margin on the HDO4000 must be really something.

So in theory you could get a 4CH 800MHz bandwidth 12bit 2GS/s scope for US$999

As I´ve saw the two scopes for the first time, I got a feeling it will be exactly this.
Reminds me hard on the MSO5000 - A solid "heart" surrounded by cheapest possible parts.
Display, fans, supply, pcb....all the same like the 4000, no matter if you spend 999 or more than double.
And it won´t wonder me if rigol will release the 50Ohms in a future update when it´s already displayed on the frontpanel...
And as Dave said, it´s a dream for hackers.
So my opnion is:
When you can live with one adc for all channels, and I bet most could live with this, when you don´t need the external sensors, most don´t need them, there is no reason to spend more than 999 bucks.
Everything is the same....
The HDO4000 is dead before they really starting to sell it.

[Fungus]

When you can live with one adc for all channels, and I bet most could live with this, when you don´t need the external sensors, most don´t need them, there is no reason to spend more than 999 bucks.

You mean if there's a simple firmware hack to get all the HDO4000 features running on the HDO1000? Yeah, they'll clean up in the hobby market.

Siglent fanboys should be nervous. Even I might buy one.

I still haven't seen a review of the 'scope itself though: What's like to use? How are the serial decoders? How are the FFTs? Does it have remote control? etc.

[2N3055]

When you can live with one adc for all channels, and I bet most could live with this, when you don´t need the external sensors, most don´t need them, there is no reason to spend more than 999 bucks.

You mean if there's a simple firmware hack to get all the HDO4000 features running on the HDO1000? Yeah, they'll clean up in the hobby market.

Siglent fanboys should be nervous. Even I might buy one.

I still haven't seen a review of the 'scope itself though: What's like to use? How are the serial decoders? How are the FFTs? Does it have remote control? etc.

Just think a bit...
First there cannot be "simple hack". If there is no 2nd ADC you cannot make it think it is 4000 by simple model switch in software. Also there is no interface for active probes. If you enable "4000 mode" software might get confused depending on how it was made.
FPGA probably has slightly different bitstream because of 4ch and 1 ADC. So you would need to keep 1000 FPGA bitstream and enable 4000 features.. That might be possible but not with a simple model number change like in 800/900 signal gen.

These two scopes are a one race ponies. Siglent scopes are much better rounded offerings. We already had discussion about this. These scopes, if they end up working well and if they end up being nice to use, might be good for strictly analog type work. But prices will have to be right. 

And then after you  claim you might buy one and Siglent fanboys should be nervous (I'm curious why they should be, if they are fanboys, then they have irrational liking of the brand regardless of real qualities, so they couldn't care less about what other brands have),  then you start asking real questions whether these new HDO scopes are any good at all... Are you a Rigol fanboy?
I know I wouldn't buy any scope before I'm sure it works for me. Siglent, Keysight, Rigol whatever..

And why do you say would buy one? As far as I remember, you don't need low noise, high precision and high sensitivity scope. Actually, according to you, there is no need for these kinds of scopes at all. It is all a scam by scope salesmen to sell you more expensive scope than you need. By your own claims all you need is 5 USD amplifier.
So I think you should start writing that in this topic too, just to be consistent. Tell everyone how Rigol is scamming us all and how they should boycott these treacherous devices devised to part fools from their money. And don't forget to mention 5 USD amplifiers. 

Back to serious talk.. My speculation is that hacking HDO1000 to HDO4000 with simple model number switch probably won't work  or will work partially and with weird caveats. Critical part of hardware is missing (one ADC) which probably means FPGA has different bitstream, or if bitstream is common, it has different modes for two versions.
Someone might be able to "Frankenstein" the application/FPGA layer to a hybrid, but it is not a simple hack, like generation of licenses, model number swaps, or other simple stuff.
Looking forward to see what our gurus here will do to it ... 

[Fungus]

Just think a bit...
First there cannot be "simple hack". If there is no 2nd ADC you cannot make it think it is 4000 by simple model switch in software.

Of course there can.

All the ADC does is get data into sample memory. Nothing downstream from that acquisition step depends on having the ADC present.

There's probably a simple switch in the firmware to choose single or dual ADC acquisition mode.

Firmware is probably identical, selected by something physical on the PCB. Maybe a resistor, maybe even the ADC itself.

Think: Even if you need the second ADC it's still cheaper to buy two HDO1000s than to buy a single HDO4000. 

Also there is no interface for active probes. If you enable "4000 mode" software might get confused depending on how it was made.

The HDO4000 is sold with non-active, switchable probes.

https://www.batronix.com/shop/measurement/probes/Rigol-PVP2350.html

Actually, according to you, there is no need for these kinds of scopes at all. It is all a scam by scope salesmen to sell you more expensive scope than you need.

You need to stalk me more closely, you missed posts like these:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/should-i-buy-a-rigol-mso5000/msg4481770/#msg4481770

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/should-i-buy-a-rigol-mso5000/msg4483612/#msg4483612

[Martin72]

You mean if there's a simple firmware hack to get all the HDO4000 features running on the HDO1000?

Comparing the two specs, there is only ONE difference.
The HDO4000 offers optional more decoding types and that was it.
Everything else is the same, what software concerns.
No additional features.
Hardware is the same except the amount of ADCs, what will cost samplerate and (maybe) bandwith.
Dave showed that there is even the 50Ohm part inside the HDO1000.
And as I´ve already said, that could be a feature released in a future firmware update.
So basically you can get the same scope with "slightly" limitations against the 4000.
So why buying a 4000...

Siglent fanboys should be nervous

Why should they...
For under 1000 bucks siglent got the SDS1000X-E series which are no competition against the HDO for understable reasons.
Above 1000 the SDS2000X+ got LA, AWG, Bodeplot, PA, 2Mpt FFT, more decodings and double of memory.
So no competition against HDO, but in other direction.

Even I might buy one.

Then start and save your pennies, this thing will cost more than a micsig tablet.

[Fungus]

The HDO4000 offers optional more decoding types and that was it.
Everything else is the same, what software concerns.

Really? I thought the HDO4000 allows you to go down to 100uV/div and the HDO1000 doesn't. It's the HDO4000's big selling point.

Strange that you'd miss that detail... isn't volts/div all you guys live for? 

Siglent fanboys should be nervous

Why should they...

100uV/div sensitivity.

For under 1000 bucks siglent got the SDS1000X-E series which are no competition against the HDO for understable reasons.
Above 1000 the SDS2000X+ got LA, AWG, Bodeplot, PA, 2Mpt FFT, more decodings and double of memory.

They certainly seem to be getting all defensive.

[EEVblog]

These two scopes are a one race ponies. Siglent scopes are much better rounded offerings. We already had discussion about this. These scopes, if they end up working well and if they end up being nice to use, might be good for strictly analog type work. But prices will have to be right. 

Correct.
They are 12bit scopes, and lack mixed signal and siggen capability deliberately to offer 12bit analog performance at a low price and that's it.
It you want bells and whistles for an everyday use scope they have the 5000 series.

[EEVblog]

The HDO4000 is dead before they really starting to sell it.

Nope. Us nerds on the forum and other hobbyists are only a small subset of the market for these scopes.

[rf-loop]

The HDO4000 offers optional more decoding types and that was it.
Everything else is the same, what software concerns.

Really? I thought the HDO4000 allows you to go down to 100uV/div and the HDO1000 doesn't. It's the HDO4000's big selling point.

Strange that you'd miss that detail... isn't volts/div all you guys live for? 


Why should they...

100uV/div sensitivity.

There is not at all real 100uV/div sensitivity.

[4]: 100 μV/div, 200 μV/div, and 500 μV/div are a magnification of 1 mV/div setting. For vertical
accuracy calculations, use full scale of 8 mV for sensitivity setting.

Example Siglent 2kXHD have full scale 4mV sensitivity. 500uV/div is not magnification of 1mV/div as is in Rigol HDO4k
And more. After this 500uV/div it have (run time) vertical zoom (magnification of 500uV/div) -  2uV/div. Not only 100uV/div.  Is this 2uV/div useful... it is then other question. 

Do I, or example Siglent, now claim that Siglent have 2uV/div sensitivity because there can find 2uV/div scale. Never. Only biased fanboys or morons can do that.

[2N3055]

Just think a bit...
First there cannot be "simple hack". If there is no 2nd ADC you cannot make it think it is 4000 by simple model switch in software.

Of course there can.

All the ADC does is get data into sample memory. Nothing downstream from that acquisition step depends on having the ADC present.

There's probably a simple switch in the firmware to choose single or dual ADC acquisition mode.

Firmware is probably identical, selected by something physical on the PCB. Maybe a resistor, maybe even the ADC itself.

Think: Even if you need the second ADC it's still cheaper to buy two HDO1000s than to buy a single HDO4000. 

Also there is no interface for active probes. If you enable "4000 mode" software might get confused depending on how it was made.

The HDO4000 is sold with non-active, switchable probes.

https://www.batronix.com/shop/measurement/probes/Rigol-PVP2350.html

Actually, according to you, there is no need for these kinds of scopes at all. It is all a scam by scope salesmen to sell you more expensive scope than you need.

You need to stalk me more closely, you missed posts like these:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/should-i-buy-a-rigol-mso5000/msg4481770/#msg4481770

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/should-i-buy-a-rigol-mso5000/msg4483612/#msg4483612

How do you survive with such reading comprehension? Do you only see green light on the street crossing when it is convenient to you?

Hardware is NOT the same. PCB used is the same, as is most of components. But, and pay attention now, lack of ADC and a contents of FPGA is the key here. I explained it. If there is no second ADC, you need to reassemble data differently. What do you think ADC data ends up magically where it needs to be by magic wand of Harry Potter? FPGA (Field Programable Gate Array) is basically logic block where you define internal "schematics" (logic functions and interconnect really) by bitstream. It is virtual hardware. You change something inside and your PCB suddenly becomes quite different hardware.
Maybe Rigol deliberately and with additional effort created firmware that can work in any combination and with a simple hack. Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't really know how they are going to release it (in what combinations) so they did an really universal one. Maybe.
If not, what I said stands. If they did, then it will indeed be great news for hackers.
Or maybe not.
What is really better with 4000? Additional ADC, better BW, 50Ω and active probes. Right there is several thousands of dollars worth of difference according to Rigol.
If I don't have active probes and additional ADC what is left to hack? Nothing really. 50Ω inputs. For usual 12bit work (analog stuff, power etc) 200 Mhz is mostly enough. Even for pro work. In fact only thing I would like if they enabled would be 50Ω on HDO1000. So hacking, meh.. If It proves to be good working scope without software problems, just buy HDO1000. If someone makes a hack, then just make a hack from HDO1000 70MHz to HDO1000 200MHz and call it a day.

As for this statement :

************************************************************
Think: Even if you need the second ADC it's still cheaper to buy two HDO1000s than to buy a single HDO4000. 
**********************************************************
WTF does that even mean? Seriously, how does that work? What do you mean by it?

Also, do you really don't know what active probe interface means? I think you do, and this is a deliberate misdirect.

And me stalking you? LOL, we all know who is a stalker here..

And those two posts just show how you have no shame. Since quite some time now you keep repeating this "amplifier fix" nonsense as a reason why scopes with low noise, high resolution and high sensitivity are not  better, with specific attacks on single brand. And after Rigol releases  scope that specifically targets that, and after you have been called out by more members here to show and demonstrate your claims,  then overnight you switch the side and now you pretend you didn't say it.
Which might not be a bad thing, maybe you finally learned you were wrong and corrected your opinion. But for that to happen, you need to say it out loud that you were wrong and that you finally get it now and that you apologize to all for wasting their time. And by that I mean not to me, but others..

[Fungus]

How do you survive with such reading comprehension?

************************************************************
Think: Even if you need the second ADC it's still cheaper to buy two HDO1000s than to buy a single HDO4000. 
**********************************************************
WTF does that even mean?

It means you can get your hands on a second ADC chip for $700.

(Not that I think it will be necessary)

(snip rabid personal attack)

I honestly think you need to stay away from the forums for a while. Maybe a week or two. For your own good.

[Martin72]

I honestly think you need to stay away from the forums for a while. Maybe a week or two.

LOL

[2N3055]

How do you survive with such reading comprehension?

************************************************************
Think: Even if you need the second ADC it's still cheaper to buy two HDO1000s than to buy a single HDO4000. 
**********************************************************
WTF does that even mean?

It means you can get your hands on a second ADC chip for $700.

(Not that I think it will be necessary)

(snip rabid personal attack)

I honestly think you need to stay away from the forums for a while. Maybe a week or two. For your own good.

We bow to you o supreme intelligence !!
We are not worthy !!

You know what: You are advocating people to buy more than 2000 € worth two scopes, then chop them up (and loose warranty on two perfectly functional scopes), extract needed chips from one and install them into another one (without damaging anything), and then also perform all necessary software hacking. And saying how easy and fun it will be.

I have an idea. Since nobody on planet did this so far, and nobody even knows where to start, I think this is great opportunity for you to show your knowledge, courage, leadership and be the first one to do it. You should lead by example. Just imagine all the praise and how famous you will be... Go out, buy those two scopes and start. Make a blog too. Document the progress for posterity.

I know I wouldn't dare but I'm just lowly me, not a supreme being of omnipotent intelligence and infinite awesomeness like you.

I apologize for even speaking up in your presence, forgive us, your omnipotence!!

.... and he quietly slips into corner of the room, whispering prayers for forgiveness....

[maxwell3e10]

OK, can we get away from personal and brand attacks and go back to look at the data, let the data speak for themselves!

It would be useful to have shorted input noise data from HDM1000 with maximum sample rate for just one channel (2 GS/s) and all channels active (0.5GS/sec). The question is if they do anti-aliasing filter properly. Also, comparing noise spectra for 200 MHz HDO4000 and 200 MHz HDO1000 will tell if there are any small differences in the analog paths.

[2N3055]

OK, can we get away from personal and brand attacks and go back to look at the data, let the data speak for themselves!

It would be useful to have shorted input noise data from HDM1000 with maximum sample rate for just one channel (2 GS/s) and all channels active (0.5GS/sec). The question is if they do anti-aliasing filter properly. Also, comparing noise spectra for 200 MHz HDO4000 and 200 MHz HDO1000 will tell if there are any small differences in the analog paths.

I presume you are referring to HDO1204 noise as opposed to HDO4204 noise.
If you look at teardown photos, front ends seem identical. There will be no differences in analog paths, maybe different programming in DSP code.  HDO1000 might even get a bit less distortion (better ADC linearity) in sampled signal because it won't be interleaving 2 discrete, separate ADCs. Interleaving on chip can be taken care of by running calibration..

[Fungus]

You know what: You are advocating people to buy more than 2000 € worth two scopes, then chop them up (and loose warranty on two perfectly functional scopes), extract needed chips from one and install them into another one (without damaging anything), and then also perform all necessary software hacking. And saying how easy and fun it will be.

Not just me. A guy called "hans" suggested the same thing but he didn't get my treatment from you.

And ... it's not me trying to derail yet another thread with personal attacks.

PS: There's dozens of threads on here with people adding "missing" components to 'scopes. Maybe you lack the skills but other people think nothing of it.

eg. Here's one that requires installing/replacing/removing 168 separate components on a 'scope that cost far more money.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-3000t-scope-1-ghz-hardware-upgrade-mod/

Upgrading an HDO1000 will be a doddle compared to that.

[2N3055]

You know what: You are advocating people to buy more than 2000 € worth two scopes, then chop them up (and loose warranty on two perfectly functional scopes), extract needed chips from one and install them into another one (without damaging anything), and then also perform all necessary software hacking. And saying how easy and fun it will be.

Not just me. A guy called "hans" suggested the same thing but he didn't get my treatment from you.

And ... it's not me trying to derail yet another thread with personal attacks.

PS: There's dozens of threads on here with people adding "missing" components to 'scopes. Maybe you lack the skills but other people think nothing of it.

eg. Here's one that requires installing/replacing/removing 168 separate components on a 'scope that cost far more money.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-3000t-scope-1-ghz-hardware-upgrade-mod/

Upgrading an HDO1000 will be a doddle compared to that.

Are you seriously comparing your hand waving with what Hans wrote.. He basically confirmed everything I wrote.
And like I said, if hack is possible there are always going to be daredevils that will risk 2000 € worth of equipment just to prove something is possible. That doesn't make it viable strategy for common user. It is not the same as typing in a license from Riglol, with zero risk.

And those Keysight home made upgrade threads are exactly proving my point: there were maybe half a dozen people that did it and that is it. It is not something 99.99 % of people can do at home. And it is irresponsible to encourage people to do it: those that are capable of doing it know it (they have necessary equipment, knowledge and experience) and don't need encouragement. Those that need encouragement don't know enough or don't have necessary equipment and should not do it. It is expensive game to play if there is not at least decent chance of success. I would not recommend it.

If you or anybody else want to do it, please by all means go for. Far be it from me to make that decision for you. But I won't be endorsing it.
And even then there will very few people that are prepared to make such large investment and accept that risk.
It won't make any difference to average users. But they would benefit from DS1000Z like license upgrade. For the price of cheapest one getting a 12 bit 200Mhz 4ch scope with big screen. That would make a difference.

That is all I'm saying.

[Fungus]

It is not something 99.99 % of people can do at home. And it is irresponsible to encourage people to do it: those that are capable of doing it know it (they have necessary equipment, knowledge and experience) and don't need encouragement.

I'm so happy... 

2N3055 believes I have the power to post things in forums that will make people to go out and buy two oscilloscopes and start trying to desolder the ASICS inside them using pliers and 6" nails they heated up on their gas stoves.

[Bad_Driver]

Just found in Germany:
Bandwidth extension 70 to 200 MHz about 891 € (incl. VAT)

https://www.conrad.de/de/p/rigol-hdo1000-bwu7t20-optionscode-bandbreitenerweiterung-hdo1000-von-70-mhz-auf-200-mhz-1-st-2625980.html

Available in 2 weeks.