Author Topic: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?  (Read 51228 times)

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Online hendorog

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2015, 11:00:06 pm »
Great summary, thanks.
So 'easy' is not the right word - its easy to get the reps attention, but the process to actually get the gear is much harder and longer.

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the engineer goes 'cap in hand' to the project manager
Just as an aside, in the software development world I have observed this is another driver to use open source software.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2015, 11:21:26 pm »
Quote
Haggling has been a pretty standard thing in dealings with the big names for decades
Its annoying that the brand names don't publish their prices. I am sure it turns people away, as the old rule applies: if you have to ask the price you can't afford it.
I could afford it and prices can be found on various websites but if they don't give me a good deal straight away I rather spend my money on Ebay (which I did). What is the use of asking for a quotation if you get the same price you can find at Farnell, Digikey, et al?  :palm:
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline G0HZU

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2015, 11:32:32 pm »
Quote
Great summary, thanks.
So 'easy' is not the right word - its easy to get the reps attention, but the process to actually get the gear is much harder and longer.
Probably the nearest I ever get to 'haggling' is asking a rep what alternatives are available and usually this means they offer a cheaper deal on an ex rental or ex demo version of the kit with some kind of warranty.

But I'm not expected to haggle at this point. Firm pricing wouldn't be discussed here. I would just present the various alternatives to the project manager and this info would get repeated in any subsequent 'business case for purchase' the manager would then present to the beancounters if the cost was beyond the authorisation limit of the project manager.

During the approval process I assume we ask for formal quotes for each alternative. But unless it is a big ticket item (eg >>£30k) we usually buy new stuff rather than ex demo or ex rental.

Note: We probably already qualify for special/reduced pricing as an established and regular customer so I really don't think much haggling takes place by our purchasing dept. But that really is just a guess on my part.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 11:37:13 pm by G0HZU »
 

Offline Isaac000

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2015, 12:25:43 am »
I was in doubt between the Agilent 3000 and the Hameg HMO3522 (350MHz)
I bought the Hameg (around 3 years ago) and I use it every day. Not a single problem. If I had to choose again I would buy the Hameg again. I had a Rigol before the Hameg, the first 100MHz scope they made, bought it for to much money. I hated that scope so much I gave it away.
Why everybody wants a cheap Rigol I can understand. You do not have much choice in that range. The gap with a real scope is big. But I do not understand why people who are looking for a serious scope even think about buying the expensive Rigols. Even if it performs well (while new), it is still a Rigol.

After I bought my Hameg they found some thing that could be a minor problem in some cases. They send me a new box, collected it the next day and brought it back a few days later, upgraded, calibrated and with a new printed manual. At no cost !!

I will second this. After years of Agilent/Tek, we got our first Hameg. Comparable pricing, slightly cheaper than Tek or Keysight but full I2C, SPI, UART decode. So far been quite nice to use. I would not go for the Rigol given the slight price difference. I have used them before and it was not a joy (though yes, for the price, it does work). If I had to do it again, I might say I would still go Hameg over the Agilent.

I would consider the following options:
* Move down to Agilent MSX2000 series or the non-touch 3000A and save a bundle.
* Consider a Hameg 2000 or 3000 series. Nice stuff at comparable prices. Worth the premium over Rigol.
* Scrounge around for a used unit from Agilent / Tek (or Hameg, Yokogawa or if you must, LeCroy  :)). Tons of them abound which have what you need and you can save quite a bit of money while you're at it.
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2015, 12:46:23 am »
Great summary, thanks.
So 'easy' is not the right word - its easy to get the reps attention, but the process to actually get the gear is much harder and longer.

Quote
the engineer goes 'cap in hand' to the project manager
Just as an aside, in the software development world I have observed this is another driver to use open source software.

I've never looked at prices when I was an engineer.  I simply spec'd what was necessary. Whenever it got rejected, I simply update the schedule to reflect the impact.  I don't think I can ever remember a time I was actually refused a piece of gear.  Gear is cheap compared to engineers. You think $20,000 is expensive for a piece of test gear?  Burn my time for a month, set back the schedule, and you'll see some REAL pain.

Usually it's the other way around. "We have to spend $100,000 dollars in 2 weeks or our rate gets screwed up for next year.  Better find some stuff to buy."

Software is another matter.  It's like pulling teeth to get some companies to pony up a few thousand bucks for software licenses. I've sat in meetings with a dozen people discussing a software purchase where the meeting itself cost FAR more than the damn software.  $250,000 for test gear?  No problem.  Spend spend spend!! $50 for a good text editor?  You'd think I was asking for a Lear jet.
 

Online hendorog

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2015, 01:02:27 am »
Quote
Software is another matter.  It's like pulling teeth to get some companies to pony up a few thousand bucks for software licenses. I've sat in meetings with a dozen people discussing a software purchase where the meeting itself cost FAR more than the damn software.  $250,000 for test gear?  No problem.  Spend spend spend!! $50 for a good text editor?  You'd think I was asking for a Lear jet.

Haha, yep thats so true  :D
 

Offline AutomationGuy

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2015, 09:03:02 pm »
When you got your quotes, did you even talk to LeCroy, or did you just ask your local resellers for quotes?

I have requested a quote at LeCroy and they didn't reply.
I doupt you can get a basic Wavesurfer under 3000$. And I know american products are cheaper in america. Thats with german products the same.
Your prices are probably without VAT.
@Würstchenhund (Thats german btw): You work for LeCroy?
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2015, 11:39:39 am »
I tried to fix your broken quoting, I hope it's allright now.

When you got your quotes, did you even talk to LeCroy, or did you just ask your local resellers for quotes?

I have requested a quote at LeCroy and they didn't reply.

That question was actually aimed at ntnico, not you. I guess you contacted their German subsidiary? In any case not replying to a customer request is pretty poor, although I can't say I'm surprised, considering that customer service towards consumers often isn't a top priority for German businesses.

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I doupt you can get a basic Wavesurfer under 3000$.

Well, you can. Maybe not in Germany but that is true for almost any other product.

Quote
And I know american products are cheaper in america. Thats with german products the same.

Of course they are, because Germans in general are willing to accept far worse deals than most other countries, something even German industry is well aware. Many moons ago when I still lived there Volkswagen cars were sold with "Gewaehrleistung" only (with no manufacturer  warranty!) in Germany at prices much higher than the same model sold in the US (which came with 3yr warranty and was stuffed with options while the German market variant was pretty basic), even after compensating for living costs, tax etc.

I don't know what the situation is these days, though, as I haven't been in Germany since and have no desire to go back. I still buy occasionally stuff from Germany (i.e. German movies you can't buy outside Germany), but that's only attractive as long the EUR is weak.

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Your prices are probably without VAT.

My prices are in US$ and there is no VAT in the US, just a sales tax of varying percentage that applies in some states but not in others. VAT and EUR prices are pretty irrelevant for the OP who according to his flag lives in the US.

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@Würstchenhund (Thats german btw)

Indeed, and as a German I'm well aware of that

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: You work for LeCroy?

No, I don't (I just happen to mention LeCroy because no-one else does, and that means people looking for gear might be overlooking some great alternatives to the trotten path of Agilent/Keysight). I don't work for any T&M manufacturer, in fact I've always been on the customer side, having bought tons of lab equipment over the years from individual DVMs to complete lab outfits costing 6+ digit figures for my customers, plus of course the occasional (more modest) purchase for my own private lab.

I won't bother haggling for a piece of kit that costs say $600 at some retailer like Batronix (which probably has pretty small margins anyways), but I'll certainly try to get a better price or some additional options for something which has a sticker price of $3000, which is a price where it is worth going to the manufacturer directly. And I always manage to get some concessions, i.e. if not a lower price then for example getting some options thrown in. And for big ticket items ($5k+) I won't close a deal without some additional incentive unless it's a really critical and terribly rare item for which there's only one source.

Of course there's a limit to what you can gain as an individual buying a single scope, but still it's worth trying to get a better deal than standard pricing, which even for single items should be possible.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 11:41:29 am by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline dadler

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #58 on: July 31, 2015, 02:08:06 am »
Man, that all-options offer is super tempting...

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Get up to 17 FREE software applications with your purchase of a new Keysight 2000 X-, 3000 X-, 3000T X-, 4000 X-, or 6000 X-Series oscilloscope
Available June 1 – November 30, 2015

Application software on your oscilloscope improves your ability to debug your system by turning data into insight. For a limited time, receive one free application bundle with the purchase of any new InfiniiVision 2000 X-, 3000 X-, 3000T X-, 4000 X-, or 6000 X-Series oscilloscope. This gives you up to 17 applications (including a free integrated function/arbitrary waveform generator and DVM) at no additional cost! The free application bundle will come pre-loaded on any eligible oscilloscope purchased in the offer period. Take advantage of this program while it lasts and receive the Ultimate Scope.

Hmmmmm.... I guess I have until November to decide.

I was happy with my DS2000 until it died recently, so my faith in Rigol is waning.
 

Offline GlowingGhoul

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #59 on: July 31, 2015, 04:17:52 am »
I read over this thread and want to clarify a few points:

-On the 3000T series, 4mpts IS standard, unlike the 3000A.

-Request a few quotes and you can get a 3014T for around $3600 with the free application bundle....$11,000 worth of apps if bought individually.

-The upgrade license to 200Mhz is ~$400
 

Offline dadler

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #60 on: July 31, 2015, 06:57:41 am »
I read over this thread and want to clarify a few points:

-On the 3000T series, 4mpts IS standard, unlike the 3000A.

-Request a few quotes and you can get a 3014T for around $3600 with the free application bundle....$11,000 worth of apps if bought individually.

-The upgrade license to 200Mhz is ~$400

Where does one request a quote--the Keysight website?

I was considering going through Tequipment, hoping I could get the EEVBlog discount and no sales tax (Err, of course I still pay voluntary use tax to my state, I uh.. promise....)
 

Offline GlowingGhoul

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2015, 02:24:49 pm »
Try TestEquity for the pricing I mentioned.
 

Offline dadler

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2015, 08:52:01 pm »
So I bought the DSOX3000T, I went through Tequipment which indicated they were shipping via Keysight.

Turns out they actually ordered the scope through Transcat, which is neither here nor there.

However, the scope came without the free application bundle/options.

Per this: http://www.newark.com/wcsstore/ExtendedSitesCatalogAssetStore/cms/asset/pdf/americas/common/special-offers/keysight-july-so.pdf

Any scope purchased new between June 1-Nov 30th 2015 should come with the options enabled.

However, mine came with no factory installed options, nor a license code.

Who should I go through to get this sorted? Can Keysight field issues like this directly, or am I going to have to hop through multiple distributors?

Has this happened to anyone else?

I imagine this scope was boxed prior to June 1st, so it's not that surprising. However, I'd think they would have had a system for handling this, knowing that distribution channels would have scopes that were boxed up before the promotion started.

Thanks.
 

Online H.O

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2015, 09:43:19 am »
I'm sorry this happpend to you. But I'm also sort of glad it did and did so even with the top of the line brand Keysight whos QC, customer support and after sales service is so bloody good. I'm sure they'll fix you up in seconds.... ;-)

Let me tell you that had it been Rigol making that mistake there would've been 5 Youtube videos a 10 page forum thread by now with all the rage directed towards the chinese piece of shit company for not knowing what they're doing, lack of QA and bad customer support.

It just goes to show that no one is perfect. I sincerely hope you'll get it sorted ASAP!
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2015, 10:47:07 am »
I'm sorry this happpend to you. But I'm also sort of glad it did and did so even with the top of the line brand Keysight whos QC, customer support and after sales service is so bloody good. I'm sure they'll fix you up in seconds.... ;-)

Well, since he bought it from Tequipment and not Keysight directly it's much more a case of the reseller messing up than Keysight messing up, because Tequipment should have taken care that the scope they send out comes with all the options. Obviously they failed to do that, and its actually up to them to sort that out (but I'm sure Keysight will sort Tequipment's failure if asked, because their customer support and after-saes service is indeed "bloody good").

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Let me tell you that had it been Rigol making that mistake there would've been 5 Youtube videos a 10 page forum thread by now with all the rage directed towards the chinese piece of shit company for not knowing what they're doing, lack of QA and bad customer support.

Unlikely, but don't let facts get in the way of a nice rant  >:D

« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 10:51:54 am by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2015, 10:47:20 am »
So I bought the DSOX3000T, I went through Tequipment which indicated they were shipping via Keysight.

Turns out they actually ordered the scope through Transcat, which is neither here nor there.
In my experience with other manufacturers, I would contact the rep first (Tequipment) and show the .PDF file you mentioned (preferrable on a link from Keysight directly). One of the reasons is the rep knows details about the transaction (date of purchase, part number sold, etc.) and will probably pre-filter this when making a request to the manufacturer. The manufacturer knows nothing about the purchasing transaction but will listen to the rep.

Obviously that sometimes such requests fall through cracks, therefore just keep pressing the rep.

In my experience, contacting the manufacturer directly will mostly likely be redirected back to the rep on an equipment under warranty. If you are a big customer, they would do all that for you, though.

Let me tell you that had it been Rigol making that mistake there would've been 5 Youtube videos a 10 page forum thread by now with all the rage directed towards the chinese piece of shit company for not knowing what they're doing, lack of QA and bad customer support.
This may be true due to the fact Rigol/Siglent/Owon have a large customer base among hobbyists (which can post things on a whim), but don't disregard the fact HP/Agilent/Keysight has a much longer track record of excellence. It sounds unfair at first glance but, as anybody in the business know, the new kids on the block have to work twofold to prove themselves. Despite I have absolutely no complaints about Rigol's support, you can't dismiss the issues others reported around the forum.
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Offline dadler

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #66 on: August 09, 2015, 11:30:33 pm »
Thanks for the responses. I contacted all three of them, shotgun approach  :P

I'm hoping this can be resolved quickly. In the interim, since I want to fully test the scope in case it is defective, I activated the 30 day trial. Unforunately I neglected to set the date to my local time zone first, and if I do so now I'll probably lose a bit of trial time. heh!

The scope is nice but the build quality isn't as good as I had come to expect from Keysight/Agilent. All of the BNCs on the front are off-center about 1mm to the left, leaving glaring gaps between the BNC and front panel PCB. This also means the USB port and MSO connector are offset as well. I re-watched Dave's tear down video and his unit has the same issue, although not as bad as mine. I could probably disassemble it, loosen all the screws holding down the PCB, and move it over? It's far enough off that if I were to use an active probe, the power pins might not seat properly in the gold divots.

The display is misaligned, and the display bezel is wavy and leaves gaps around the display. The plastic feels kinda cheap.

I actually think the build quality of my Rigol DS2000 is better (at least exterior-wise).

Oh well. It is an incredibly fast scope and I like the UI and interface.

Do you have to spend $50k+ to get scopes that really maintain attention to detail in their construction these days?
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #67 on: August 10, 2015, 07:00:14 am »
Do you have to spend $50k+ to get scopes that really maintain attention to detail in their construction these days?

Well, I have two of the 3000X series scopes and I really can not complain about misalignment. But the built quality of my Agilent 7000 series scope is definitely better and top quality,
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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #68 on: August 10, 2015, 09:28:00 am »
The scope is nice but the build quality isn't as good as I had come to expect from Keysight/Agilent. All of the BNCs on the front are off-center about 1mm to the left, leaving glaring gaps between the BNC and front panel PCB. This also means the USB port and MSO connector are offset as well. I re-watched Dave's tear down video and his unit has the same issue, although not as bad as mine. I could probably disassemble it, loosen all the screws holding down the PCB, and move it over? It's far enough off that if I were to use an active probe, the power pins might not seat properly in the gold divots.

The display is misaligned, and the display bezel is wavy and leaves gaps around the display. The plastic feels kinda cheap.

I haven't seen a DSOX3000T in the wild yet but the labs I work in have quite a few DSOX3000 and DSOX400 Series scopes, and on the ones I've looked closer to I did notice similar things, and felt they looked pretty cheaply made for something carrying the Agilent sticker. It's definitely not on par with their non-X predecessors.

Quote
Do you have to spend $50k+ to get scopes that really maintain attention to detail in their construction these days?

No (although spending $50k+ is no gurantee that there won't be any issues), but that's why you should get to try one first before committing to buying an expensive piece of test equipment (i.e. go to someone who has one and play with it, ask the manufacturer for a loaner, or rent one for a day or two).
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 09:31:00 am by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline dadler

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #69 on: August 10, 2015, 08:28:59 pm »
Yeah, I understand these are entry level scopes so I guess I am not that surprised--just was hoping it to match the build quality of my older Agilent/HP equipment which is top-notch. I guess they have to cut corners somewhere, but geez I thought it'd at least feel better than a Rigol (not the case here).

Tequipment is trying to figure out what's going on with the missing options on my scope. Argh, I was led to believe the scope would ship from Keysight (maybe they were out of stock so they used Transcat). Anyways, with three layers of distribution I don't know how easy it is going to be to get the app bundle for my scope.

I *still* have not heard back from Keysight-via-Newark about my purchased bandwidth upgrade option. Maybe it's not a good idea for individuals to purchase from the big names like Keysight etc. You just aren't important enough to warrant good service. Unless you are a big account, you just kinda get ignored.

To the contrary, My interactions with Rigol have been stellar, although two of my five Rigol devices have been returned for hardware issues-so maybe it's a toss up.
 

Offline dadler

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #70 on: August 10, 2015, 09:14:31 pm »
So heard back from Keysight who told me that I need to contact Transcat. Transcat will then contact Keysight, and Keysight will generate the option key.

I contacted Transcat who told me to contact Tequipment, as they placed the order with Transcat.

I contacted Tequipment who at first told me to contact Transcat (seemed to think I ordered from Transcat?). Once I explained that I actually ordered from Tequipment, they put me on hold and then said they'd contact be back when they get it figured out.

So, I guess it's working out exactly as you'd think it would: complicated as heck  :scared:
 

Offline commie

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #71 on: August 10, 2015, 09:26:38 pm »
The scope is nice but the build quality isn't as good as I had come to expect from Keysight/Agilent.

Hi dadler, it's me again...

Interesting set of developments arising after slagging off my GW-Instek GDS2000 series scope as low end crap.Anyways it seems you have purchased high end crap so we are in the same boat. Yep, I considered the Agilent 2000 series before I bought the GW-Instek for £1200.00 but Agilent wanted a cool £2000.00 vat incl for their 2000 series(2ch-200MHz). from Farnell(Newark) thats 40% more dosh than the Instek, and you have bought a top flight 3000 series stuff aswell?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 09:30:36 pm by commie »
 

Offline dadler

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #72 on: August 10, 2015, 09:29:06 pm »
I didn't say it was low-end crap. I said it was low-end like Rigol/Siglent, which it is. The Agilent DSOX3000 series is also their low end line. Lots of low-end here. No crap.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #73 on: August 10, 2015, 09:39:18 pm »
Maybe it's not a good idea for individuals to purchase from the big names like Keysight etc. You just aren't important enough to warrant good service. Unless you are a big account, you just kinda get ignored.

Not really. The problem are the resellers, which in my experience for most part are absolutely useless if the task involves anything which goes beyond picking a box from storage, slapping an address label on top and sending it off.

If I wanted to buy a DSOX3000T (which I wouldn't, but never mind) then I'd get it through Keysight directly. I might pay a bit more but the hassle is a lot less. It's different if I were to buy some Rigol or Siglent kit (because they have no own sales channel), but certainly not for something like a $3k big brand scope.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Rigol DS4000 series VS Keysight 3000T Better Value?
« Reply #74 on: August 10, 2015, 09:50:39 pm »
I can't say I'd ever consider the Keysight 3000 series "low end". The 1000 and possibly basement 2000's, maybe, but I suppose everything's relative.

The 3000 is probably more of a VW Golf, the bread and butter mid range mainstream unit with the 2000 a Polo and the 1000 an Up. The range then goes all the way up through the Bentleys, Lambos and Bugatti high end, those that sell far fewer but are high performance and high value. They probably sell 100 times more 3000s than they do Z series.s
 


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