Author Topic: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?  (Read 4900 times)

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Offline Someone

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2022, 07:48:04 am »
At 1MHz, 15pF will pass as much current as 10kΩ resistor. At  3,6 MHz equ. input resistance is cca 3kΩ.
At 70V RMS that comes down to a 1,6W+ dissipated in just input capacitance.
Thats not how power dissipation in a capacitor is calculated!
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2022, 07:54:11 am »
At 1MHz, 15pF will pass as much current as 10kΩ resistor. At  3,6 MHz equ. input resistance is cca 3kΩ.
At 70V RMS that comes down to a 1,6W+ dissipated in just input capacitance.
Thats not how power dissipation in a capacitor is calculated!
I often wonder why frequency derating is not included in manuals these days--is it because they assume the user knows better or they assume the user is incapable of understanding the concept?

It's probably a "marketing" thing.

They could easily include a graph but it would look very bad if it can only take 2V at 100MHz.

(or whatever it works out to be at 100MHz with a 1x probe)

Printing "CAT II 300V" on the front is much better for sales.

I understand your meaning, but maybe not even that necessarily..
Many things that are done in industry are simply done that way for many years and are being done on inertia.
Traditionally scopes where "for professional use only". They where very expensive and rare. Care was taken that operators knew how to use them.
Hobby users were much rarer than today, and even those where many times also professionally into electronics...

Manuals and datasheets are not usually written in a "this beverage is hot/ McDonalds style" for this kind of equipment.
A random person that has no bearing on electronics basics usually don't operate scopes.

User manual is not really "Scopes for preschool" book.
Datasheet is summary of most important guaranteed specifications summary, not really a detailed characterization of device and all of it's operating modes.. That would be a few hundred pages book. Just remember the detailed writeup Performa01 did on SDS1104X-E, that was hundred of pages of analysis. And his notes were much more than that..

As I said before, that is, mostly, the reason for that infamous "we sell only to companies" attitude of some manufacturers.. It is hard to support users that have limited knowledge. 

 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2022, 08:04:03 am »
At 1MHz, 15pF will pass as much current as 10kΩ resistor. At  3,6 MHz equ. input resistance is cca 3kΩ.
At 70V RMS that comes down to a 1,6W+ dissipated in just input capacitance.
Thats not how power dissipation in a capacitor is calculated!

You are correct, I wanted to simplify things but wrote wrong.

What I meant is that there will be current going into the input. How and what will heat up will depend on current and ESR of the component passing current and phase shift between U/I (only real component will heat up)...
But significant current going into input will heat up something.. What exactly will depend on schematics..
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2022, 08:09:32 am »
Manuals and datasheets are not usually written in a "this beverage is hot/ McDonalds style" for this kind of equipment.
If the scope specifications say it can withstand a certain voltage, without any other constraints or limitations, then it should do so. Consumer/professional etc does not matter when the specifications are plain wrong.

Rigol, failed. The customer is right to be unhappy and ask for their losses to be made good (refund/replace/repair at manufacturers or sellers expense).
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2022, 08:16:25 am »
Manuals and datasheets are not usually written in a "this beverage is hot/ McDonalds style" for this kind of equipment.
If the scope specifications say it can withstand a certain voltage, without any other constraints or limitations, then it should do so. Consumer/professional etc does not matter when the specifications are plain wrong.

Rigol, failed. The customer is right to be unhappy and ask for their losses to be made good (refund/replace/repair at manufacturers or sellers expense).

I agree. I was mainly responding to a reasoning it is being vague deliberately. Which might not be the case.

Customer exceed visible input range of the oscilloscope by 250%...
Rigol did not specify damage limits properly...
It is not so clear cut...

My opinion is that it is in manufacturers best interest to publish clear damage limits to limit it's responsibility.
 

Offline alm

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2022, 08:39:03 am »
I often wonder why frequency derating is not included in manuals these days--is it because they assume the user knows better or they assume the user is incapable of understanding the concept?
It's inconsistent. The recent Tek 5 series B has it in the data sheet, the Tek DPO/MSO 2000 doesn't, but their entry level TBS1000C does. I don't see a pattern.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2022, 09:05:37 am »
If the scope specifications say it can withstand a certain voltage, without any other constraints or limitations, then it should do so. Consumer/professional etc does not matter when the specifications are plain wrong.

CAT ratings are about mains AC, not RF.

Rigol's "CAT I 300V" label implicitly limits you to mains AC frequencies.

They're not technically making any claims above 50/60Hz when they put "CAT I 300V" on the front of a device.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 09:11:00 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2022, 09:32:44 am »
Rigol replied with

Quote
If there are no signals greater than 300VRMS the customer can’t damage the oscilloscope.

I guess that the generator generates spikes >300VRMS because both input channels are destroyed.

I recommend to use a high voltage probe to absorb any spikes that can occur.

And now the dealer is asking him if he would like a quotation from them to repair the scope

FWIW: Your problem is that they believe the generator produced more than 300V.
 

Offline TheBayTopic starter

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2022, 09:39:41 am »
Rigol replied with

Quote
If there are no signals greater than 300VRMS the customer can’t damage the oscilloscope.

I guess that the generator generates spikes >300VRMS because both input channels are destroyed.

I recommend to use a high voltage probe to absorb any spikes that can occur.

And now the dealer is asking him if he would like a quotation from them to repair the scope

FWIW: Your problem is that they believe the generator produced more than 300V.

Yes exactly and why my friend is under the impression that is what the scope can take regardless of frequency as Rigol and the dealer are telling him, along with the documentation.

So as far as he is concerned he hasn't gone above what they are telling him and that he has no way generating 300Vrms.

I explained to him after the fact about frequency derating when he told me his scope isn't working and tried to help him by finding any information regarding it on this series of scope. Which I couldn't.
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2022, 09:40:49 am »
What impedance was actually at the scope termination?

These Rigols don't have switchable 50 Ohm option so it would be 1M Ohm with a direct cable connection.

Having a T there is exactly the same as using a probe or test leads on the load

It's not the same as using a 10x probe on the load  :)

(which is what you would normally use for anything high voltage/power)


Hi Fungus

I am aware its a 1M Ohm input thanks, to use a 50 Ohm input termination you would require and BNC impedance adapater to obtain that.

Was this at fault at all? Again as has been pointed out this was an RF signal, and the use of a correctly positioned dummy load / attenuator would have been a bare minimum imho

Just been doing some quick calculations here:

Taking the 100W @ 1MOhm input:

P = U^2/R  U = sqrt(P*R) = sqrt (100W *1000000 Ohm) = 10.000 Volt = 10 kV rms
Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 

Offline TheBayTopic starter

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2022, 09:44:58 am »
What impedance was actually at the scope termination?

These Rigols don't have switchable 50 Ohm option so it would be 1M Ohm with a direct cable connection.

Having a T there is exactly the same as using a probe or test leads on the load

It's not the same as using a 10x probe on the load  :)

(which is what you would normally use for anything high voltage/power)


Hi Fungus

I am aware its a 1M Ohm input thanks, to use a 50 Ohm input termination you would require and BNC impedance adapater to obtain that.

Was this at fault at all? Again as has been pointed out this was an RF signal, and the use of a correctly positioned dummy load / attenuator would have been a bare minimum imho

Just been doing some quick calculations here:

Taking the 100W @ 1MOhm input:

P = U^2/R  U = sqrt(P*R) = sqrt (100W *1000000 Ohm) = 10.000 Volt = 10 kV rms

The dummy load is in the correct position! This is not the issue here.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 09:55:46 am by TheBay »
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2022, 10:05:42 am »
Hi Bay

Maybe the ice hockey guy got you a little confused  :-DD

Regardless personally not the way I would have gone about that particular measurment  YMMV, something really doesn't add up at all here?

To clarify things further some images of the exact set up would help put things into greater context more here, after all a picture says a thousand words.

Are the remaining two channels still function on the scope?

Then your friend could set this up exactly how it was before (without actually pushing the go button so to speak!) and post a short explanitory video that way the forum could gain much deeper insight into any possible issues and with the combined experinace on here offer some thoughts on the set up?

Would really help to show the true prespective of the whole conundrum.

Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 

Offline TheBayTopic starter

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2022, 10:13:03 am »
Hi Bay

Maybe the ice hockey guy got you a little confused  :-DD

Regardless personally not the way I would have gone about that particular measurment  YMMV, something really doesn't add up at all here?

To clarify things further some images of the exact set up would help put things into greater context more here, after all a picture says a thousand words.

Are the remaining two channels still function on the scope?

Then your friend could set this up exactly how it was before (without actually pushing the go button so to speak!) and post a short explanitory video that way the forum could gain much deeper insight into any possible issues and with the combined experinace on here offer some thoughts on the set up?

Would really help to show the true prespective of the whole conundrum.

Apart from the strange characters the calculation doesn't make sense in this situation.

It's a 2 channel scope, there are no other channels left to try.

I think everyone already understands how it was terminated, it has been written and a diagram provided.
The load is the Bird Dummy load and the scope was simply measuring voltage across it, the scopes input is High Z.

 
 

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2022, 10:13:46 am »
If the scope specifications say it can withstand a certain voltage, without any other constraints or limitations, then it should do so. Consumer/professional etc does not matter when the specifications are plain wrong.
CAT ratings are about mains AC, not RF.

Rigol's "CAT I 300V" label implicitly limits you to mains AC frequencies.

They're not technically making any claims above 50/60Hz when they put "CAT I 300V" on the front of a device.
Measurement categories are only about the transient protection, not about the operating frequency (referring to copy of 61010 on hand...). 300Vrms CAT I is a specification that the device can be used to measure 300Vrms signals and the "standard" impulse transient expected on that maximum signal within a CAT I setting will not damage the device. The exact specification Rigol provides:
Quote from: Rigol 1000(z) datasheet
CAT I 300 Vrms, CAT II 100 Vrms, transient overvoltage 1000 Vpk
 

Offline Performa01

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2022, 12:20:01 pm »
The input capacitance of any input should be a dead giveaway that a derating of the overload limits will be needed. There are at least two cases:

The input attenuators (frequency compensated voltage dividers) are unlikely to require a derating. The voltages remain constant, just the input current rises proportional to the frequency. Yet this could become a problem in certain situations.

Consider 100 W / 50 ohms / 140 MHz -> about 70Vrms @ 140 MHz. With an input capacitance of e.g. 16 pF this is a reactive load of 70 ohms at 140 MHz. The reactive peak input current will reach 1.4 A! This could easily be a problem, e.g. for the signal relay that is switching the attenuator.

In general, “power dissipation in a capacitor” should never be a problem here. Not for the DC-blocking as well as the frequency compensation capacitors in an oscilloscope frontend. These have high quality dielectrics with negligible loss (ESR) – we’re not talking about electrolytics here.

Then there is the input buffer. The LF-path is high voltage tolerant with lots of (protective) series resistance (and high noise). The transition to the HF-path is 6 dB/octave and starts at a frequency between some 100 Hz and some kHz, depending on the design. The principle is pretty much the same for any modern general-purpose oscilloscope, i.e. the ones that provide a high impedance input of 1 MOhm // something.

The HF-path has no series impedances other than a small capacitor, whose impedance is essentially zero at high frequencies. This is why we can have high sensitivity and low noise down to about 3 nV / sqrt(Hz) at frequencies above several MHz, but certainly no protection anymore, apart from some clamping diodes. The latter are already a problem even at moderate frequencies below 1 GHz, because they add a voltage dependent input capacitance, which, among other things, means distortion. So we want to use the fastest diodes (or transistors) with the best HF features and lowest junction capacitances. It just so happens that such components cannot handle high currents. Consequently, such a clamp easily fails and the following HF buffer could get fried by any substantial overload.

A proper DSO will activate two cascaded attenuators to provide the maximum attenuation for 10 V/div, only one attenuator for 1 V/div and no attenuator at all for 100 mV/div and lower. Cheap DSOs make do with just one attenuator in total.

Now consider 70 Vrms = 200 Vpp. If you are a bit sloppy and accidentally switch the scope to a vertical gain of 100 mV/div or below, so that the input attenuators aren’t activated, then the full 200 Vpp reach the input of the HF-buffer via the DC blocking capacitor that might be something like 1 nF.

Even at very low frequencies like 3.5 MHz, the reactance of a 1 nF capacitor is only 45 ohms! Now consider what (for example) the sensitive dual gate MOSFET and the fragile BAV99 clamping diodes in an average low cost HF buffer will have to say when they need to face a 200 Vpp signal from a low source impedance – even if it is applied only for a very short time.


As we are at it: a x1 Probe is not nearly the same as a direct coax connection. The latter requires a proper termination for meaningful results at higher frequencies. The x1 probe needs no termination but has a very limited bandwidth of usually less than 10 MHz from the outset. Everyone can use an ohmmeter to measure the resistance from the probe tip to the center pin of the BNC connector – does this look like an equivalent of a direct coax connection?

EDIT: false assertion about signal handling capability above 1V/div deleted.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2022, 08:44:44 pm by Performa01 »
 
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Offline Someone

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2022, 12:32:53 pm »
The input attenuators (frequency compensated voltage dividers) are unlikely to require a derating.
Except we have the rough schematic for the input attenuators of the scope in question, and it alone requires voltage derating. With the front end attenuator in circuit very little gets caught by the protection diodes further along the chain, they are not in danger.

it should be quite obvious that any serious DSO can handle full screen peak to peak signals without issues
"serious" scopes like the Tek 5 series explicitly say they cant, you are wrong. Please do send full scale input voltages at maximum frequency to your scopes to demonstrate their robustness, and film it for our lols.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2022, 01:02:51 pm »
I explained to him after the fact about frequency derating when he told me his scope isn't working and tried to help him by finding any information regarding it on this series of scope. Which I couldn't.

It applies to all 'scopes, even the expensive ones. His cheapo 'scope isn't going to be an exception.

It seems there's a lot of people doing this exact measurement on Youtube. I can only imagine they're getting lucky or not doing haigh power measurements (I'm not going to sit through videos to find out).
 

Offline Performa01

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2022, 08:42:28 pm »
Quote from: Someone link=topic=322516.msg4145110#msg4145110
it should be quite obvious that any serious DSO can handle full screen peak to peak signals without issues
"serious" scopes like the Tek 5 series explicitly say they cant, you are wrong. Please do send full scale input voltages at maximum frequency to your scopes to demonstrate their robustness, and film it for our lols.

You are right. Sorry, I’ve been a bit sloppy here.

Of course this topic is all about how the overload rating can not be applied at higher frequencies, so my statement was only true for the vertical gains available in 50 ohms mode, i.e. up to 1 V/div.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2022, 10:44:49 pm »
Quote from: Someone link=topic=322516.msg4145110#msg4145110
it should be quite obvious that any serious DSO can handle full screen peak to peak signals without issues
"serious" scopes like the Tek 5 series explicitly say they cant, you are wrong. Please do send full scale input voltages at maximum frequency to your scopes to demonstrate their robustness, and film it for our lols.
You are right. Sorry, I’ve been a bit sloppy here.

Of course this topic is all about how the overload rating can not be applied at higher frequencies, so my statement was only true for the vertical gains available in 50 ohms mode, i.e. up to 1 V/div.
That is one part of what you said (if you squint and read between the lines), but most of the rest is quickly shown to be untrue. Even here where you walk back to only 50 Ohms mode (which the OP scope does not have!) there are examples from Tektronix where the input rating varies depending on the attenuation setting, and some of those cannot withstand full screen signals continuously (duty cycle limit specified in the data sheet).

Even 50 Ohm scope paths can have compensation, whether that is more or less robust than the following stages is a big unknown and cant be generalised across all "serious" scopes.


 

Offline Someone

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2022, 10:50:19 pm »
I explained to him after the fact about frequency derating when he told me his scope isn't working and tried to help him by finding any information regarding it on this series of scope. Which I couldn't.
It applies to all 'scopes, even the expensive ones. His cheapo 'scope isn't going to be an exception.

It seems there's a lot of people doing this exact measurement on Youtube. I can only imagine they're getting lucky or not doing high power measurements (I'm not going to sit through videos to find out).
It is also possible in the low cost high volume scopes that the parts vary between different production batches, so worst case limits may not apply to some units built with more robust parts (or board/design revisions!).
 
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Offline adam4521

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Re: Rigol DS1202Z-E Input voltage vs frequency derating?
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2022, 09:38:06 pm »
In case anyone was thinking that older analogue oscilloscopes can manage this sort of derating better because maybe they have bigger components, better thermal dissipation etc, the answer could be 'not necessarily'. I thought I'd check my old 2245A which has an extensive section on 'performance characteristics' in the manual -- including a frequency-voltage derating chart.

While it starts at 400V, it derates down to a peak input of 12.5V for anything above 500kHz. This scope would likely be damaged even for the lower-powered scenario described by OP (1:1 probing of 10W of RF into 50ohm load).


 
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