Rigol DS1022C - Good for first scope?

[xcalibur]

Hi Everyone. I'm an electronics hobbyist from South Africa looking for some knowledgeable feedback.

I am currently tinkering and learning about AC to DC conversion, regulation, stabilisation etc. and I am fascinated by it. Not having an oscilloscope to visualise and measure changes I make to my circuits are frustrating. I have also often found myself trying to debug the odd PWM signal and saying "Man, I wish I had an oscilloscope".

I found a secondhand Rigol DS1022C (25Mhz) selling for $198 (R2800 ZAR), but I have mixed feelings. Is it too old, too slow, too expensive? I do not see myself going into the RF field any time soon so the Mhz might be OK?

I really need some feedback from someone that knows more than me. Should this be my first scope or should I keep looking?

[madires]

That's is too expensive! A brand new DS1054DZ with four channels and 50MHz (upgradable to 100MHz for free via riglol, more RAM, protocol decoders) is US$375. And if you're lucky you can find an used CRO for 50 bucks.

[Fungus]

Positive: In theory it can be hacked to 100MHz:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-ds1022c-to-100mhz/

Negative: The screen is very small, it quite old and has limited features compared to newer 'scopes.

The model that replaced the DS1022C costs R3655 brand new: https://www.tequipment.net/RigolDS1052E.html/

R2800 for an old, previous generation model with no warranty isn't a good price. You need to haggle.

[xcalibur]

That's is too expensive! A brand new DS1054DZ with four channels and 50MHz (upgradable to 100MHz for free via riglol, more RAM, protocol decoders) is US$375. And if you're lucky you can find an used CRO for 50 bucks.

I suspected that "too expensive" is the case. Going through the classifieds I also found a few CRO's.

1. Iwatsu SS 5116 @ $107 (seller says it needs calibration)
2. Leader LBO-522 @ $128 (seller claims "in daily use")

Clearly there is a premium to pay here in SA.

[xcalibur]

Positive: In theory it can be hacked to 100MHz:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-ds1022c-to-100mhz/

Negative: The screen is very small, it quite old and has limited features compared to newer 'scopes.

The model that replaced the DS1022C costs R3655 brand new: https://www.tequipment.net/RigolDS1052E.html/

R2800 for an old, previous generation model with no warranty isn't a good price. You need to haggle.

The DS1052E looks great! With shipping and duties it comes to $392 (R5470) when ordered from TEquipment which is above my "this is a hobby" budget.  Cheapest local price is $443 (R6182).

Should the seller be haggle-able, what do you think a good offer would be? If this is just a bad deal to start with, maybe I should save up a bit more?

[xcalibur]

Another few options I found on Amazon. (Prices include shipping + duties)

Hantek DSO5102P @ $341
Siglent SDS1052DL+ @ $378
OWON SDS1102 @ $278

(The OWON is of course closer to what I am willing to pay at the moment)

[xcalibur]

Just found this...might be invaluable to finding my "budget scope"

[Fungus]

That's is too expensive! A brand new DS1054DZ with four channels and 50MHz (upgradable to 100MHz for free via riglol, more RAM, protocol decoders) is US$375. And if you're lucky you can find an used CRO for 50 bucks.

I suspected that "too expensive" is the case. Going through the classifieds I also found a few CRO's.

1. Iwatsu SS 5116 @ $107 (seller says it needs calibration)
2. Leader LBO-522 @ $128 (seller claims "in daily use")

I wouldn't get a CRO. They're getting old now, and there's a big risk of dying due to bad capacitors, etc. People who say "get a CRO" either aren't keeping up to date or live in a place where other $50 CROs are easy to find.

The DS1052E looks great! With shipping and duties it comes to $392 (R5470) when ordered from TEquipment
...
Clearly there is a premium to pay here in SA.

Yep. A lot of people here tend to forget that.

So ... in local terms: Your Rigol DS1022C is about half the price of a new DS1052E (ie. $130 to an American).

In those terms the price of your DS1022C is a bit more reasonable.

It's second hand though so the price isn't fixed. Are you good at haggling? Offer him $175 (cash!) and be prepared to go to $185. 

Just found this...might be invaluable to finding my "budget scope"

Raw hardware numbers aren't the whole story, firmware and features are everything.

[Fungus]

PS: Have you seen these:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=dso138+oscilloscope

They're not good oscilloscopes but they are cheap.

[pascal_sweden]

Did you see this hack for the Rigol DS1022C?
https://hackaday.com/2013/05/16/rigol-ds1022c-hack-brings-it-up-to-100mhz-speed/

[xcalibur]

I wouldn't get a CRO. They're getting old now, and there's a big risk of dying due to bad capacitors, etc. People who say "get a CRO" either aren't keeping up to date or live in a place where other $50 CROs are easy to find.

Thanks. Passing on the CRO's.

It's second hand though so the price isn't fixed. Are you good at haggling? Offer him $175 (cash!) and be prepared to go to $185. 

No, definitely not the best haggler, but I can try. I've already displayed interest in the scope which might make it slightly more difficult.

PS: Have you seen these:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=dso138+oscilloscope

They're not good oscilloscopes but they are cheap.

I did, but they immediately striked me as more toy than useful. I'm no professional, but I would rather spend a little more and have something more substantial.

Did you see this hack for the Rigol DS1022C?
https://hackaday.com/2013/05/16/rigol-ds1022c-hack-brings-it-up-to-100mhz-speed/

I did. Not sure whether it truly takes it to 100Mhz though. Could not find any post-hack data.

[xcalibur]

@fungus - You seem pretty clued op on all things local to SA. (I'm assuming you're South African) 

If you were in my shoes, looking for a good "starter scope" as a hobbyist and taking all above mentioned into consideration, what would you do?

[Fungus]

@fungus - You seem pretty clued op on all things local to SA. (I'm assuming you're South African) 

No, not me. I'm just more aware of the fact that not everybody has an account at the local Fluke/Rigol/Keysight office and that some places have huge taxes that mean you pay twice what people living in Silicon Valley pay.

If you were in my shoes, looking for a good "starter scope" as a hobbyist and taking all above mentioned into consideration, what would you do?

I'm not in your situation. I don't know how much $198 means to you, how long it will take you find a better buy or how long it will take to to save up for something better.

Any 'scope makes a MASSIVE difference to electronics work and the Rigol DS1022C will definitely be useful. There's no doubt about that. If the bandwidht can be hacked to 100Mhz then that won't be an issue for general electronics work. If it's working now and you don't abuse it than it should last for quite a few years.

Make sure you check it out. Hook it up to the test signal on both channels, push all the buttons, turn all the knobs, take a good look at the BNC connectors to make sure they aren't loose.

I worked with a 20Mhz small-screen 'scope for a couple of years before I got my Rigol DS1054Z and I'm very glad I had it. Life would have been much more difficult otherwise.

No, definitely not the best haggler, but I can try.  I've already displayed interest in the scope which might make it slightly more difficult.

If you didn't buy it on the spot and it's still for sale then that makes it easier. They don't have a buyer yet, they're wondering if they're asking too much and if ever going to sell it at that price.

Tell them you like the 'scope but you don't think it's worth $198 to you because of age, model (you're really looking for four channels, not two), the low bandwidth, etc., etc. Make sure they understand it's not perfect for you, that you'll be making a big compromise if you buy that one (and you are, you'd rather have a new DS1054Z!)

Now offer them $180 cash and wait for them to make a move. Wait in silence for as long as it takes for them to reply. There's two possibilities now.

a) If they're not used to selling things you'll get a delay followed by counter-offer. Consider it, meet them in the middle.
b) If they reply instantly that "$198 is the price, take it or leave it" then this lets you know that they've played this 'game' before. If they've played before then you know they've been haggled before and you'll eventually end up in the middle somewhere if you just stay firm.

[xcalibur]

I don't know how much $198 means to you, how long it will take you find a better buy or how long it will take to to save up for something better.

$198 is not small change to me, and although I could possibly save up and afford a new DS1054Z in a few months time, it is still a lot of money for hobby application (not forgetting having to justify it to my SO).
Second-hand, these are few and far between. They are NOT easy to find. 

Tell them you like the 'scope but you don't think it's worth $198 to you because of age, model (you're really looking for four channels, not two), the low bandwidth, etc., etc. Make sure they understand it's not perfect for you, that you'll be making a big compromise if you buy that one (and you are, you'd rather have a new DS1054Z!)

You had me at compromise.    Now I want the DS1054Z. Anyway...the seller is willing to drop to R2500 ($179). 

[Fungus]

the seller is willing to drop to R2500 ($179).

Do it! 

[rsjsouza]

Good suggestions all around, but one thing I would be very careful is that the DS1022C is an older platform. In this case, make sure you test all the knobs and encoders of the front panel, as well as the inputs - who knows why they are selling this? Failing encoders and blown inputs are not uncommon.

I feel for you regarding the added cost on the local market. Despite I live in the US, I am Brazilian and was also subject to very high taxes (combined it reaches almost  100%) and the lack of top tier products. I would love to be able to buy used equipment in the US and sell in Brazil - not only I would sell for profit, but the buyer would get a good price too. Oh well...

[xcalibur]

Good suggestions all around, but one thing I would be very careful is that the DS1022C is an older platform. In this case, make sure you test all the knobs and encoders of the front panel, as well as the inputs - who knows why they are selling this? Failing encoders and blown inputs are not uncommon.

I feel for you regarding the added cost on the local market. Despite I live in the US, I am Brazilian and was also subject to very high taxes (combined it reaches almost  100%) and the lack of top tier products. I would love to be able to buy used equipment in the US and sell in Brazil - not only I would sell for profit, but the buyer would get a good price too. Oh well...

There are some drawbacks to living on the edge of Africa. The weather is great though. 

You and @fungus both mentioned testing it properly before pulling the trigger (some noob scope humour right there). Any specific procedure you would advise following?

[rsjsouza]

Good weather indeed. It is -4°C today here and I have a cold. Oh well...

A proper test would be with the help of an external function generator.

If you don't have one, I would try to get some high speed signal source. Once I grabbed some AA batteries and a few of these crystal oscillators (similar to this) with a range of frequencies (5MHz, 10MHz, 20MHz) to have an idea on how the inputs are responding to high frequency. Also, use the cal signal reference output to test the inputs and the frequency accuracy of the oscilloscope. Does the oscilloscope come with the probes?

I would also bring a USB pendrive to see if the port is working fine and you can store a waveform there. It is not uncommon for the pins to be cracked due to excessive force.

If you have a laptop and is interested in communicating with the oscilloscope via USB, bring it and pre-install the Rigol software. I couldn't find the specific one for this model, but you can try one of the options of this download page.

If the oscilloscope has a self test or self cal, I would also do that. To learn how to get to it, check the manual at this link.

I would also bring a small flashlight to try and see its insides through a vent - the seller will never let you crack it open. The reason is that you want to have an idea how bad dust or other foreign elements accumulated over the years.

Overall, test the buttons and encoders to see if they are properly working or are skipping steps or missing keypresses. These are usually the things that age with time.

Note that finding an issue with any of the things above does not necessarily mean it is not a good deal. However, it may give you extra room to haggle and give you an expected amount of work to bring the oscilloscope to its top shape.

Good luck!

[Fungus]

Any specific procedure you would advise following?

Connect up both probes to the 12kHz test signal on the front. Make sure you can see a square wave on both. Move the traces up/down, zoom in/out. Make sure you can trigger on both channels. Try each channel individually and both together.

Next, disconnect the probes and do a self-cal. This will exercise the front end op-amps on all the difference voltage ranges. If self-cal fails then walk away.

Press all the buttons, make sure they appear to do something.

Take a small capacity USB stick (1-2Gb) which is formatted in FAT32 format. Put it in and press the "print" button, it should save a screenshot to the stick.

If all that looks OK then you're probably good to go.

[ebastler]

Connect up both probes to the 12kHz test signal on the front. Make sure you can see a square wave on both. [...]

@xcalibur, just to avoid nervous spells during your scope testing: The test signal output provides a 1 kHz square wave, not 12 kHz.
(Yes, I know, my fingers are too fat for the keyboard too...) 

Otherwise great advice from Fungus!

[Fungus]

Connect up both probes to the 12kHz test signal on the front. Make sure you can see a square wave on both. [...]

@xcalibur, just to avoid nervous spells during your scope testing: The test signal output provides a 1 kHz square wave, not 12 kHz.
(Yes, I know, my fingers are too fat for the keyboard too...) 

Otherwise great advice from Fungus!

Oooops!

It does say "1kHz" on the front of the box though.


One more thing: Note that many of the knobs are pushable (the ones with a graphic to the right of them. Push them. They normally center the value in question and the timebase knob should zoom when you push it.

[xcalibur]

Thanks for the testing and general info/feedback everyone.

Meeting the seller on Saturday. Will report back.

[xcalibur]

So with all the great feedback and advice, I spent a good 1/2-hour testing the DS1022C before pulling the trigger and making the purchase. The unit is in  "as-new" condition and I am now the proud owner of my first oscilloscope.

Thank you very much!!

[Fungus]

Looks like you got a good one!

[rsjsouza]

Congratulations on your purchase! It really looks like an excellent specimen.

Also, thanks for reporting back the end of this story.