Author Topic: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread  (Read 144441 times)

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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #750 on: November 08, 2023, 05:43:36 pm »


I haven't played much with that asapect of the DHO but the DS1054Z is famous for having impossibly good intensity grading. It's as good as any 'scope at any price...

Why is that? I don't know. Maybe a quirk of it's "everything on screen" architecture or something.  :-//
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #751 on: November 08, 2023, 06:15:51 pm »
Maybe a DHO owner can specifically confirm or refute this theory by looking at suitable test signals?

This is about the best I could get:
« Last Edit: November 08, 2023, 06:23:42 pm by Fungus »
 

Online Martin72Topic starter

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"Comparison is the end of happiness and the beginning of dissatisfaction."
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #753 on: November 08, 2023, 07:32:32 pm »
Thank you both! The intensity grading looks alright on the DHO800, but not as convincing as on the good ol' DS1000Z... The large inner area of the modulated envelope is rendered pretty homogeneous -- despite the fact that the "beam" sweeps the central areas, where the carrier amplitude is high, much faster. So real phosphor would get excited less in those areas, and the DS1000Z mimics that nicely.

Ah well; not a tragedy for DHO800 usefulness. But always a bit disappointing when a modern, more powerful product falls behind its predecessor.
 

Online Martin72Topic starter

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #754 on: November 08, 2023, 07:39:24 pm »
Quote
Edit: Does it support intensity grading in XY mode?

Will check this tomorrow..

Yes and No... ;)
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #755 on: November 08, 2023, 07:50:15 pm »
Quote
Edit: Does it support intensity grading in XY mode?
Will check this tomorrow..
Yes and No... ;)

Pity -- no brightly glaring shots when playing Asteroids on this. ::)
Well, Mike has shown us in reply #730 what XY mode is really useful for in electronics, and the DHO800 handles those plots very nicely indeed!
 

Offline iMo

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #756 on: November 08, 2023, 07:56:33 pm »
..But always a bit disappointing when a modern, more powerful product falls behind its predecessor.

Hmm, not sure about that.. While looking at the DS1054Z mobo I can see an ADC FPGA with two rams (16b and 32b width) attached, then an FPGA for the display processing, a linux MCU with ram and the 3rd FPGA for the LA..
« Last Edit: November 08, 2023, 08:01:13 pm by iMo »
 

Online Martin72Topic starter

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #757 on: November 08, 2023, 08:00:15 pm »
Quote
But always a bit disappointing when a modern, more powerful product falls behind its predecessor.

I don't think rigol knows how they managed that either.
The grading is the best I've ever seen on a DSO, on the 1054Z - but also on the DS2072, which I also had.
Both had Ultravision I technology.
MSO5000/7000 was UV II and today's have UV III.
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Offline iMo

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #758 on: November 08, 2023, 08:08:12 pm »
The DHO's display data are processed inside the android MCU, the DS1054Z display data are processed in a separate FPGA, afaik.. It seems to me the tricks with the persistance shading simply do not fit the android MCU performance (or data bandwidths somewhere)..
PS: the DS1054Z could be more performant than the DHO800 - the 1000Z's FPGA/MCU clocks might be slower (?), on the other hand it does "a distributed processing", with less bottlenecks, kind of..

..But always a bit disappointing when a modern, more powerful product falls behind its predecessor.

Hmm, not sure about that.. While looking at the DS1054Z mobo I can see an ADC FPGA with two rams (16b and 32b width) attached, then an FPGA for the display processing, a linux MCU with ram and the 3rd FPGA for the LA..
« Last Edit: November 08, 2023, 08:27:56 pm by iMo »
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #759 on: November 08, 2023, 08:38:05 pm »
The DHO's display data are processed inside the android MCU, the DS1054Z display data are processed in a separate FPGA, afaik.. It seems to me the tricks with the persistance shading simply do not fit the android MCU performance (or data bandwidths somewhere)..

PS: the DS1054Z could be more performant than the DHO800 - the 1000Z's FPGA/MCU clocks might be slower (?), on the other hand it does "a distributed processing", with less bottlenecks, kind of..

I don't know about "more performant" in general. The UI response seems much smoother on the DHO800/900, FFT calculations have not only higher dynamic range but happen at a much faster rate, the waveform update rate is significantly improved too.

But they probably had to cut corners somewhere to meet the cost target. The memory (?) bandwidth being shared between analog and digital channels was one major surprise (and disappointment); maybe a simplified grading implementation is another, more minor one.
 

Online TurboTom

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #760 on: November 08, 2023, 10:11:31 pm »
What I painfully missed on the DHO914S that I had the opportunity to evaluate vs. Rigol's mature oscilloscopes is the measurement history, and especially their graphic display. This was so comfortable to document trends of measured parameters like a phase walk-through or the like. To the best of my knowledgle, this function was only present on these "legacy" Rigol 'scopes (DS1000Z, DS2000(A) and DS4000 and the corresponding MSO versions). Maybe Rigol could add this function on the DHO in a firmware down the line, but I wouldn't bet on it...



Edit: For those who are not familiar with what I mean, you may want to have a look here -- the fourth attached screenshot shows this function.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2023, 08:24:37 pm by TurboTom »
 

Offline mawyatt

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #761 on: November 09, 2023, 05:02:37 am »
Well we've been able to hang on to this 824 longer than expected (client has much more pressing issues to resolve, so doesn't need any distractions at this time), and decided to try and give the XY mode a whirl.

Here's a couple characteristic curve 2N3904 plots utilizing XY mode with an external AWG (OMG we utilized the forbidden "S" brand AWG!!!).

For those not familiar with silicon bipolar transistors, these are plots created by sweeping the collector emitter voltage Vce, while stepping the base current and plotting collector current.

The 2N3904_CTR0 curve shows the NPN bipolar operating in reverse (backwards, or upside down) mode as it's often called, where the collector and emitter are effectively interchanged by allow a negative Vce for the NPN type (also shows the forward direction, centered around 0 volts). Note the lower Beta (current gain) and breakdown (steeper collector current slope) in the reverse direction wrt to the forward normal operation mode. This reverse mode was often utilized way back due to the very low Vcesat voltage at low to modest currents.

Anyway, seems the little 824 can produce some nice XY plots!!

Best,

Had a little time this evening to play around with the DHO824 some more.

Some folks may be wondering how we created these XY Curve Trace plots on the DHO824. A proper Curve Trace for a bipolar transistor requires a +- ramp voltage with variable amplitude and offset for sweeping the collector to emitter, or Vce, and sensing the collector current Ic. A +- step base current Ib is required for the base, and the Vce and Ic are plotted as X and Y respectively on the DSO. All this requires quite a bit of circuitry, current sensing amplifiers, variable ramp +- voltage generators with variable offset, and synchronized variable step base +- current source with variable offset. Just take a look at the old Tek 577, it's huge and chocked full of all sorts of electronics (sure it's much more versatile and has much larger ranges in voltage and current as it's a dedicated Curve Tracing Instrument, pretty good one at that!!). So this can be a complex undertaking, or maybe one can just use whats at hand, like a AWG, a couple resistors and a DSO with XY plotting capability and get a crude Curve Tracing ::)

Guess which path we chose  ;)

Anyway, we also utilized our old Tek 577 to see just how crude these plots were relative to a proper Curve Tracing Instrument, judge for yourself.

Best,
 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2023, 05:09:02 am by mawyatt »
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #762 on: November 09, 2023, 06:52:42 am »
Pity -- no brightly glaring shots when playing Asteroids on this. ::)

You can enable a Z channel... :-)



I doubt it will do the flare around the bright dots though.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2023, 07:18:47 am by Fungus »
 

Offline blargg

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #763 on: November 09, 2023, 10:28:18 am »
I have no idea what the DHO800's "Waveform Freeze" option does in this mix. Does it somehow override the persistence setting and force it to zero -- but only when entering Stop mode?

Yes.

So, when the scope is waiting for a trigger in RUN mode, and showing the most recently acquired set of persistent traces on the screen -- can you press STOP, and it redraws the screen content from the acquisition buffer, showing just a single trace?

That would be another workaround for the "can't have zero persistence" limitation. But it seems that allowing a "persistence: none" setting would be the cleaner way from a UI perspective. I wonder whether there is some deep division-by-zero type limitation in the rendering engine for the intensity-graded display which does not allow this?

After a good while experimenting with test signals (Audacity to draw repeating waveforms played over the headphone jack), I've made more sense of how the virtual phosphors (persistence) and acquisition buffer(s) interact. After doing this I tried the same on the 1054Z and what do you know, it seems to behave the same way though I didn't test it as extensively as the DHO804. This is what I found:

Normal operation of persistence is to add each sweep to a buffer and slowly fade out the buffer between sweeps. On an analog scope once the signal stops triggering (and it's in normal not auto mode), everything will fade out. But the Rigol will keep drawing the last sweep at full intensity, which is more useful IMO than just fading to black.

The issue I had occurs when when memory depth is set to a lower value (e.g. 10k). In this case it keeps *multiple* sweep buffers saved in memory as it is successively triggered. The displayed sweep is ALL of these drawn on top of each other. So when the signal stops triggering, all these buffers stay at full intensity on screen, not just the most recent buffer. This behavior with smaller buffers acts like a secondary persistence system that keeps recent previous sweeps from fading out.

So the fix for my case is to increase the memory depth to 10M or 25M, which seems to ensure only one buffer is kept in memory at a time and thus only the last sweep persists on screen.

Something different happens when you stop capture with the Run/Stop button. If Waveform Freeze is on, it basically just freezes the screen, persistence and all. If Waveform Freeze is off, it displays only the most recent (single) sweep buffer, without any persistence of anything previous. Contrast this with what happens when the signal stops triggering, where it keeps displaying the multiple sweep buffers in memory.

For a test signal I had pulses of increasing width one after the other. This allowed me to easily see how many were being displayed overlaid at once, by the falling edges appearing in a row across the screen.

I'm enjoying using this scope with the mouse on its own screen (though it locks out the touch screen). I thought I would be hooking this up to a monitor but the screen is quite readable despite the small fonts (and over HDMI mouse movement was very lagged and choppy, which was unbearable to use).
« Last Edit: November 09, 2023, 10:30:12 am by blargg »
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #764 on: November 09, 2023, 11:16:50 am »
I'm enjoying using this scope with the mouse on its own screen (though it locks out the touch screen).

It's fun to use, right? No twisty knob!

You could also try one of those $1 phone stylus things instead of a mouse (the rubber-tip ones, not the fancy electronic ones).


This frees up the USB port for WiFi and you can grab screenshots over the 'net (HTTP or FTP).

I thought I would be hooking this up to a monitor but the screen is quite readable despite the small fonts

Yep, the font rendering is excellent, very easy to read. YMMV but the "small screen" really hasn't bothered me at all.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2023, 04:53:02 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #765 on: November 09, 2023, 11:22:38 am »
I've just been messing around playing youtube videos into the 'scope in XY mode:


(video recorded in web browser using the built-in web server's screen record function  :)  )

Original video:


« Last Edit: November 09, 2023, 05:18:49 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #766 on: November 09, 2023, 11:30:44 am »
Another one:



I'm not sure how much distortion is from Youtube's lossy audio compression.  :-//

Original video:
 
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Offline rpro

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #767 on: November 09, 2023, 01:43:56 pm »
In case this has been missed, you can enable the XY "Advanced Settings" switch on the XY setup window by turning on "Test Mode" first (3 taps on Utility/About). 
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #768 on: November 09, 2023, 04:49:24 pm »
In case this has been missed, you can enable the XY "Advanced Settings" switch on the XY setup window by turning on "Test Mode" first (3 taps on Utility/About).


I wondered about that! :-DD

The XY mode has a load of "Advanced Settings" that appear if you click the hamburger on the XY window, but they're all greyed out.


The only way to get to them is through a secret trick? Nice one!

(FWIW they don't seem to improve these videos...)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2023, 04:54:13 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #769 on: November 09, 2023, 05:13:46 pm »
In case this has been missed, you can enable the XY "Advanced Settings" switch on the XY setup window by turning on "Test Mode" first (3 taps on Utility/About).

Are there any other secret passageways which get unlocked in "Test Mode"?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #770 on: November 09, 2023, 05:16:28 pm »
In case this has been missed, you can enable the XY "Advanced Settings" switch on the XY setup window by turning on "Test Mode" first (3 taps on Utility/About).

Are there any other secret passageways which get unlocked in "Test Mode"?

Only in places that make sense.

(AFAIK)
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #771 on: November 09, 2023, 05:33:01 pm »
Are there any other secret passageways which get unlocked in "Test Mode"?

Only in places that make sense.
(AFAIK)

I would certainly hope so. ;)

My question was, where are these places? Any pleasant surprises -- like full control over FFT acquisition details, more control over the number format in axis labels, or such?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #772 on: November 09, 2023, 07:33:27 pm »
My question was, where are these places? Any pleasant surprises -- like full control over FFT acquisition details, more control over the number format in axis labels, or such?

I'd class that as "unexpected".

AFAIK: It only shows more system info, a self-test menu, an extended self-cal.

ie. Stuff you'd expect a "debug" mode to do.
 

Online Martin72Topic starter

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #773 on: November 09, 2023, 07:36:02 pm »
Quote
AFAIK: It only shows more system info, a self-test menu, an extended self-cal.

Confirmed, I called up all the menus in test mode earlier and nothing was different than usual.
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread
« Reply #774 on: November 09, 2023, 07:52:29 pm »
AFAIK: It only shows more system info, a self-test menu, an extended self-cal.
ie. Stuff you'd expect a "debug" mode to do.

... plus extended, surprisingly detailed controls for XY mode, right? Which I would not necessarily consider "stuff I expect a debug mode to do"; hence my question.

Anyway, thank you both for checking!
 


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