Rigol DHO804 Test and Compare Thread

[2N3055]

...
My problem is not that DHO900 will sometimes undersample (like the rest of the scopes). Problem is that unless you use it like you have bought 2 ch scope, it CANNOT satisfy Nyquist at any setting of memory and time base.

That is either bad design (which it cannot be because Rigol does know better) or deliberate, very unsavoury, marketing scam.
...

nope! there is no one in the sky telling it must satifies Nyquist at 4 channels, its even mentioned in datasheet (4 channels 312.5MSps) and we have no problem with that, sometime we need 4 channels for low freq debugging, for max freq, turn them all off like 1 channel. the fact that there is no telling much about the 16ch LA, prepare for anything, get used to that, thats how china's metric works in general. cheers.
https://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-c2b704a4-c02c-4b09-9748-7e41815c1fa9/0/-/-/-/-/DHO900_DataSheet_EN.pdf

That is your problem. There are industry standards. Way how things are being called for decades.
World don't care that you, in your head live in different universe and have your own definition.
There is certain "code of conduct" between manufacturers for at least basic decency.
Otherwise it's would be Wild West out there.

If I buy 4ch scope I expect it to be VALID 4ch scope at least in basic requirements.
Not some scope with 3 pages of disclaimer.
In my country we call that "I bought a cat in a bag".
People in general don't analyze datasheets in detail. Target market for these scopes are not professionals.

They will read on EEVBLOG how this "game changer" DHO900 stellar super duper hypersonic miracle for the money is so great.........
By the time they realize it is not, they won't be able to return it.

I will tell you my prediction in a year or two. DHO800 will be good seller. It is cheap. And they will debug a thing or two, but not everything. But it will generally be brought to be working scope and will become DS1000Z of 12 bit world.
OTOH DHO900 is going to bring lots of headache to Rigol.

[voltsandjolts]

200Mhz scope that samples at maximum of 156.25 MS/s when all channels are on.

I think 156.25 MS/s is a mistake and should be 312.5 MSa/s, unless I am misunderstanding something?

Datasheet for DHO800 & 900 series states:

Code: [Select]

1.25 GSa/s (single-channel[1]), 625 MSa/s (dual-channel[2]), 312.5 MSa/s (full-channel[3])
Note:
[1]: Single-channel mode: If any one of the channels is enabled, it is called single-channel mode.
[2]: Dual-channel mode: For four-channel models, if any two of the channels are enabled, it is called dual-channel mode.
[3]: Full-channel mode: For two-channel models, if all of the two channels are enabled, it is called full-channel mode; for four-
channel models, if any three channels or all of the four channels are enabled, it is called full-channel mode.

Some dealer websites mistakingly state "1.25 GSa/s (divided by number of active hannels)"

[2N3055]

200Mhz scope that samples at maximum of 156.25 MS/s when all channels are on.

I think 156.25 MS/s is a mistake and should be 312.5 MSa/s, unless I am misunderstanding something?

Datasheet for DHO800 & 900 series states:

Code: [Select]

1.25 GSa/s (single-channel[1]), 625 MSa/s (dual-channel[2]), 312.5 MSa/s (full-channel[3])
Note:
[1]: Single-channel mode: If any one of the channels is enabled, it is called single-channel mode.
[2]: Dual-channel mode: For four-channel models, if any two of the channels are enabled, it is called dual-channel mode.
[3]: Full-channel mode: For two-channel models, if all of the two channels are enabled, it is called full-channel mode; for four-
channel models, if any three channels or all of the four channels are enabled, it is called full-channel mode.

Some dealer websites mistakingly state "1.25 GSa/s (divided by number of active hannels)"

With MSO drops to 156.25 MS/s

[ebastler]

With MSO drops to 156.25 MS/s

And that is, very unfortunately, not mentioned in Rigol's datasheet. 

[Fungus]

200Mhz scope that samples at maximum of 156.25 MS/s when all channels are on.

I think 156.25 MS/s is a mistake and should be 312.5 MSa/s, unless I am misunderstanding something?

It's 156.25 MS/s if you have HDO900 and you turn all channels and logic analyzer on.

Back here in HDO800 world (the subject of the thread) it's 312.5 MSa/s.

[Mechatrommer]

That is your problem. There are industry standards. Way how things are being called for decades.
World don't care that you, in your head live in different universe and have your own definition.
There is certain "code of conduct" between manufacturers for at least basic decency.

this goes back to you. Rigol will make sales and we dont return it.. whether you like it or not

In my country we call that "I bought a cat in a bag".

when we want to buy a cat, we expect a cat, no bag no problem, if we got bag, we are thankful. we bought NanoVNA and things thats not in conduct. you can buy industrial stuffs, free world..

People in general don't analyze datasheets in detail. Target market for these scopes are not professionals.

another insult again. but i wont comment, just to let you know it is an insult, if you not already know. Rigol got ASICs

They will read on EEVBLOG how this "game changer" DHO900 stellar super duper hypersonic miracle for the money is so great.........
By the time they realize it is not, they won't be able to return it.

yes it is game changer, miracle on the price. and we wont return it whether you like it or not. World don't care that you, in your head live in different universe and have your own definition.

I will tell you my prediction in a year or two. DHO800 will be good seller. It is cheap. And they will debug a thing or two, but not everything. But it will generally be brought to be working scope and will become DS1000Z of 12 bit world. OTOH DHO900 is going to bring lots of headache to Rigol.

you prediction seems inline with me (if you can allow prediction (suspicion) as not an insult) but not because DHO900 is not properly designed, but because DHO800 is highly hackable to DHO900. similar to their predecessor.

are we still friend? friends do fight right?

just to let this on topic, i checked the vertical labels are indeed rounded off, i was exaggerating... but still 200 on graticule is better than 272.. i can live with that by ignoring.. or simply switch it off, the option is there, thats the most important part. ymmv

[Fungus]

With MSO drops to 156.25 MS/s

And that is, very unfortunately, not mentioned in Rigol's datasheet. 

I see it like one of those hatchback cars with fold-down rear seats.

Either you carry passengers in the back or you carry cargo. Not both at the same time.

I believe there's a lot of them out there and everybody thinks they're a good compromise. Thanks to them we don't all have to buy crew-cab pickup trucks or seven seat minivans.

[Mechatrommer]

Thanks to them we don't all have to buy crew-cab pickup trucks or seven seat minivans.

or buy cheaper DHO800, and cloned LA, or even legit one, still not hit £2K thanks to "them".

[ebastler]

With MSO drops to 156.25 MS/s

And that is, very unfortunately, not mentioned in Rigol's datasheet. 

I see it like one of those hatchback cars with fold-down rear seats.
Either you carry passengers in the back or you carry cargo. Not both at the same time.

I believe there's a lot of them out there and everybody thinks they're a good compromise. Thanks to them we don't all have to buy crew-cab pickup trucks or seven seat minivans.

I did not say that the sharing of sampling rate is an unacceptable compromise. (Although I think it is a very unfortunate one: Rigol have this neat low-cost 12 bit ADC, and then they throttle it down by skimping on the FPGA or RAM bandwidth.)

In any case it is a very unusual compromise, not found in any other MSO. And as such, it needs to be stated in the datasheet. The dishonesty is what annoys me, much more than the design tradeoff itself.

Even the car manufacturers state that the maximum trunk volume is only available when you fold down the rear seats. And that is a compromise which is clear and obvious to everyone, rather than a total surprise. If you enjoy car analogies: How would you like a car where the top speed is reduced by 50% when you turn on the lights or the air conditioning, and where that is not mentioned in the specs?

[Fungus]

I will tell you my prediction in a year or two. DHO800 will be good seller. It is cheap. And they will debug a thing or two, but not everything. But it will generally be brought to be working scope

It's a working 'scope right now.

I only know of two bugs so far in the DHO800 that affect usage (ie. make me have to take an action). Neither is a showstopper, both seem easy to fix.

One of them needs fixing right away to avoid confusion but it seems like an easy fix in the firmware.

I will tell you my prediction in a year or two. DHO800 will be good seller. It is cheap. And they will debug a thing or two, but not everything. But it will generally be brought to be working scope and will become DS1000Z of 12 bit world.

This thing blows away the DS1054Z in every possible way. It's great looking, it doesn't take up much space and it's fun to use! No twisty knob!!

It's exactly what hobbyists need. It already IS the "DS1000Z of 12 bit world"*

(*) Right now it's creating a 12 bit world. 8 bits is dead, and it's something the unmentionable brand has no answer for right now.

OTOH DHO900 is going to bring lots of headache to Rigol.

Maybe. I think a lot of people will buy it for the signal generator, and a lot of those for the Bode plot. They need to fix the Bode plot ASAP.

I don't think the LA will be a big selling point simply because of the price of the probes.

[ebastler]

I don't think the LA will be a big selling point simply because of the price of the probes.

Well, if all you want to probe is 3.3V and 5V signals, you can buy a cheap probe on ebay for $80, including (equally cheap) clips.

Personally I am still not ruling out a DHO900 with the official Rigol probes, since the large +-40V input range would be useful for working on vintage computers. As mentioned before, that combination would still be significantly cheaper than a Saleae Logic Pro 16, and beat it on all specs. (Although maybe not on usability.)

[Fungus]

Thanks to them we don't all have to buy crew-cab pickup trucks or seven seat minivans.

or buy cheaper DHO800, and cloned LA, or even legit one, still not hit £2K thanks to "them".

I think this might eventually create a bunch of Chinese LA probe clones but I don't think many people will be modifying their DHO800 into a DHO900. It just seems too risky/messy and will need skillz/toolz if the PCB needs modding more than just soldering in a connector.

[2N3055]

I will tell you my prediction in a year or two. DHO800 will be good seller. It is cheap. And they will debug a thing or two, but not everything. But it will generally be brought to be working scope

It's a working 'scope right now.

I only know of two bugs so far in the DHO800 that affect usage (ie. make me have to take an action). Neither is a showstopper, both seem easy to fix.

One of them needs fixing right away to avoid confusion but it seems like an easy fix in the firmware.

I will tell you my prediction in a year or two. DHO800 will be good seller. It is cheap. And they will debug a thing or two, but not everything. But it will generally be brought to be working scope and will become DS1000Z of 12 bit world.

This thing blows away the DS1054Z in every possible way. It's great looking, it doesn't take up much space and it's fun to use! No twisty knob!!

It's exactly what hobbyists need. It already IS the "DS1000Z of 12 bit world"*

(*) Right now it's creating a 12 bit world. 8 bits is dead, and it's something the unmentionable brand has no answer for right now.

OTOH DHO900 is going to bring lots of headache to Rigol.

Maybe. I think a lot of people will buy it for the signal generator, and a lot of those for the Bode plot. They need to fix the Bode plot ASAP.

I don't think the LA will be a big selling point simply because of the price of the probes.

LeCroy created 12 bit world decade ago..
Rigol is bringing in to the masses.

[2N3055]

People in general don't analyze datasheets in detail. Target market for these scopes are not professionals.

another insult again. but i wont comment, just to let you know it is an insult, if you not already know. Rigol got ASICs

It is not. It is statement confirmed by thousands posts here in EEVBLOG. It is an observation.
Target market for DHO800/900 is hobby/entry level.
It is not an insult it is Rigols own market strategy.

I have no idea what does statement about ASIC mean and has to do ANTHING with previous sentence and why are you insulted by it...
Or at this point if you are insulted by something I said or by the fact that Rigol has ASIC:

If you feel insulted by me, that was not my intention. I'm sorry that you are.

[Martin72]

The bracket was attached earlier and somehow you can also understand this as a statement about what I think of this scope.

[ebastler]

LeCroy created 12 bit world decade ago..
Rigol is bringing in to the masses.

I think that's what Fungus meant -- bringing 12 bit to entry-level scopes.

You have to grant it to Rigol that they are good at pushing the envelope in the low-cost segment: To my knowledge they were the first ones to bring TDS210-style compact DSOs to the low-cost market; then to bring 4 channels and "digital phosphor" intensity grading with the DS1054Z; now to bring 12 bits with the DHO800 and 900.

Yes, they have a tendency to rush things to the market. But looking at the major benefits they have had from being "first to market", I can understand their approach. It looks like the DS1054Z is still a very good seller, despite the fact that Siglent came out with an arguably better competing instrument a couple of years later. But the DS1054Z had made its name, got a lot of publicity and recommendations by that time. Heck, even the DS1052E is still available, so some people who follow old recommendations must still buy it...

It looks like Siglent is more closely on Rigol's tracks now with the SDS1000X HD (at least as a competitor for the DHO900). But they might be missing the window of opportunity again, while the DHOs establish themselves in people's minds as "the 12-bit scope I can afford".

[Fungus]

LeCroy created 12 bit world decade ago..

By that definition we all live in an 8-channel, 10Ghz "world". 

(or higher!)

[Fungus]

It looks like Siglent is more closely on Rigol's tracks now with the SDS1000X HD

But can they compete on price? I doubt it. Not without an ASIC.

Does anybody have a price prediction or possible feature set yet? I don't follow Siglent threads...

[Antonio90]

It will not compete in price with the DHO800, but with the DHO1000 AFAIK.
We will see, but Tautech predicts a 800-900 price for the DSO1104X-HD. The prices in China, already published, are closer to 1k but the 2104X-Plus is more expensive in Siglent China than it's base price in Europe.

They are really not in the same class, I think. It doesn't look like Siglent is competing in the "true" entry level range with 12 bits. If it really costs close to 800€ it could fill a gap in the low-cost range, as almost all sensible offerings jump from 500 to 1000+ without any steps in between.

[Fungus]

They are really not in the same class, I think. It doesn't look like Siglent is competing in the "true" entry level range with 12 bits. If it really costs close to 800€ it could fill a gap in the low-cost range, as almost all sensible offerings jump from 500 to 1000+ without any steps in between.

Seems to me like they'll mainly be competing with their own SDS2000 series.

[Martin72]

I don't follow Siglent threads...

You can tell, but in this case make an exception and check out the appropriate thread, otherwise this is getting too offtopic.

[Fungus]

I don't follow Siglent threads...

You can tell, but in this case make an exception and check out the appropriate thread, otherwise this is getting too offtopic.

OK, I just noticed this in the second post of the "SDS1000X HD coming" thread.



Let's see... 200Mhz bandwidth, 250MSa/sec .... doesn't that break Nyquist?   

ENOB 8.4??? 

[ebastler]

Does anybody have a price prediction or possible feature set yet? I don't follow Siglent threads...

The expected feature set of the SDS1000X HD is well-known and quite desirable: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-hd-coming/

Regarding the price, there is a lot of speculation. Translating the pricing of the version which is already available in China into US or European pricing (using the price tag of scopes available in both markets as an indicator) puts it at below 1000$ or 1000€.

So it is above the DHO900 both in specs and price, but not so far that it would be out of consideration for hobbyists.

[Antonio90]

They are really not in the same class, I think. It doesn't look like Siglent is competing in the "true" entry level range with 12 bits. If it really costs close to 800€ it could fill a gap in the low-cost range, as almost all sensible offerings jump from 500 to 1000+ without any steps in between.

Seems to me like they'll mainly be competing with their own SDS2000 series.

It won't have AWG and LA hardware built in, and the frontend is 200 MHz. Maybe the additional harware, along with more than twice the bandwith separates them well enough, but I really don't know.

It seems to be following the last few years trend. A direct competitor to Rigol products, with worse headline specs, quite a bit more expensive, and also more polished. We'll see I guess.

[Mechatrommer]

LeCroy created 12 bit world decade ago..
Rigol is bringing in to the masses.

thats why its game changer. we can talk about siglent and owon? 14bits? that came earlier. the game changer (to hobbiests community) is actually the price tag.

I have no idea what does statement about ASIC mean and has to do ANTHING with previous sentence and why are you insulted by it...

just for fun... you are a stiff one (we call here "straight" people with no sense of humor)

If you feel insulted by me, that was not my intention. I'm sorry that you are.

no offense taken. its only for public benefit and some parts are personal preferences. nothing personal really. and the same to my conclusions are general view by many people. if you feel insulted, then i'm sorry too. just next time dont call people babbon, babbon dont know how to read literatures carefully and dont remember what he said or people said to him before. and again i'm not insulted i'm all too familiar with this. cheers.

Heck, even the DS1052E is still available, so some people who follow old recommendations must still buy it...

just few days ago someone PM me here asking how to fix his DS1052E, he bought it 2nd hand. unfortunately even my DS1052E cant be turned on anymore. i think it reached its service life where data in its ic/mcu/rom start to disintegrate.