Rigol DHO800/900 Oscilloscope Bug Reports + Firmware

[Randy222]

I poking around the auklet.so and found big long list of SCPI commands. What I did not know aboy SCPI command, commands you might find in a PDF and such, the lowercase letters can be truncated.

Congrats! You're up to page 5 of the programming manual!
Seriously tho',  Great job finding that "in the dark". And thanks for the clock hack info.

I suspect the manual per model does not cover all the scpi commands a DHO can do (or not do), after adding options lics, etc. Like the clock item.
Enabling BODE on an optioned 804 (914) does some weird stuff.
I believe one command causes the Scope app to crash.

I Don't know how many commands you found, and I didn't read ALL 450+ pages of the programming guide., but there sure are a lot of commands that they have listed, which makes me question your comment about how thorough their manual coverage is.
In fact, it takes up over 17 pages, having 30-ish entries each, just to index all the commands, and it takes 400+ pages to explain each of those functions!
I know --and presumably you do as well-- that it isn't exactly prudent to report or complain about bugs on a DHO that has "options/lics" added(as you say), especially given that they haven't yet made/sold/given away "options" for 800/900's.

BTW: My "page 5" reply was an attempt to get you to realize(I even PM'd you) that you posted the clock hack in the "Bug report" thread, but that didn't seem to work.

In next few days I will yank out the coded SCPI commans from the auklet.so file. Long list, but not all of them actually work on the 800/900. My hardware is limited, an 804 that runs as a 914, so I do expect some items to balk.

See attached.

[ebastler]

I do expect some items to balk.

I do expect some readers to balk at finding this continued SCPI exploration in the "bug reports" thread. 

Did you find SCPI commands which are in the manual but don't work? What are you expecting to get from looking for the commands in the code?

[ebastler]

Did your report include anything about the positive vs negative HSync selectors?
I.e., Positive = Negative and Negative = Positive?

Does the dialog actually state that the "positive" refers to the HSync polarity?
I read it as "positive = normal video signal polarity = positive-going brightness signal".

[Lathe26]

Along these lines, I just sent in a detailed bug report regarding the Video Triggering not working (via help@rigol.com).  This included details steps and photos.  Hopefully this helps.

Thanks for that.  Did your report include anything about the positive vs negative HSync selectors?

---

I.e., Positive = Negative and Negative = Positive?
And what kind of device puts out composite video like what is shown in second pic?  I sure would like to see a spec for it.

My bug report covered where positive was selected, though I've attempted both and both fail.

I interpret "positive" to be normal composite video signal (e.g., yellow consumer video connector) and "negative" is inverted.  As to where "negative" is used, this how analog broadcast and analog cable RF signals are AM modulated in the US (can't speak for other countries or standards).  For example, US analog channel 3 uses a carrier of 61.25 MHz where the sync pulse has the largest amplitude while white has a small amplitude at this frequency.

[AceyTech]

Does the dialog actually state that the "positive" refers to the HSync polarity?
I read it as "positive = normal video signal polarity = positive-going brightness signal".

The Dialog doesn't state it., It shows the HSync polarity.  -and even illustrates the "intended' trigger point at the leading edge of HSync...  Which is why I posted pix for both button states of Pos/Neg selection.
From my experience with composite video signals: What they are depicting is a HSync signal followed by the color burst signal, then showing a bit of video content.  Of course, the diagram is abbreviated, but anyone that has seen grayscale or colorbars on a scope, knows what they're(Rigol are) getting at with that diagram.

Here's the problem:  I doubt there's a video input(monitor/capture, etc) device that could sync up to an inverted composite signal as they show via the "Negative" selection, because the syncs, burst, and vid wouldn't be at the right spot in the signal.
I don't want to launch into a big diatribe describing the levels involved in the makeup of video signal, but here's a very rudimentary PDF brief about video signals on a scope without a dedicated video trigger.  Analog Devices has a more in-depth article regarding various analog video signals.

I interpret "positive" to be normal composite video signal (e.g., yellow consumer video connector) and "negative" is inverted.  As to where "negative" is used, this how analog broadcast and analog cable RF signals are AM modulated in the US (can't speak for other countries or standards).  For example, US analog channel 3 uses a carrier of 61.25 MHz where the sync pulse has the largest amplitude while white has a small amplitude at this frequency.

I'm pretty sure oscilloscope video triggers only work on demodulated(I.e. not RF) video, so I don't understand what you're getting at?

BTW: Since this trigger function is so broken, maybe they didn't care to make the diagram match reality?  I'm guessing they will eventually remove the negative selector when they do.   I am ONLY referring to the NTSC/PAL video triggering, BTW.  Other video types(like VGA) utilize a variety of horizontal and vertical sync signalling to indicate different video modes., but never(to my knowledge) in a composite signal.

[ebastler]

Does the dialog actually state that the "positive" refers to the HSync polarity?
I read it as "positive = normal video signal polarity = positive-going brightness signal".

The Dialog doesn't state it., It shows the HSync polarity.  -and even illustrates the "intended' trigger point at the leading edge of HSync... 

I did not get my point across, it seems. Let me try again:

You select the "positive" radio button. That means you set up the scope for positive video signal polarity -- i.e. the brightness signals are positive, and the HSync is negative. And that's what you get, unless I am mistaken; so no bug.

(Note that the positive/negative selector is not in the "Sync" group of controls in the dialog. It is in the "Video standard" line.)

Edit: Whether there is much practical relevance in even providing the "negative polarity" option is a different matter. I have not come across inverted video signals. But even if they are in use somewhere, couldn't one just invert the scope channel? Seems like a duplication of functionality.

[Randy222]

I poking around the auklet.so and found big long list of SCPI commands. What I did not know aboy SCPI command, commands you might find in a PDF and such, the lowercase letters can be truncated.

Congrats! You're up to page 5 of the programming manual!
Seriously tho',  Great job finding that "in the dark". And thanks for the clock hack info.

I suspect the manual per model does not cover all the scpi commands a DHO can do (or not do), after adding options lics, etc. Like the clock item.
Enabling BODE on an optioned 804 (914) does some weird stuff.
I believe one command causes the Scope app to crash.

I Don't know how many commands you found, and I didn't read ALL 450+ pages of the programming guide., but there sure are a lot of commands that they have listed, which makes me question your comment about how thorough their manual coverage is.
In fact, it takes up over 17 pages, having 30-ish entries each, just to index all the commands, and it takes 400+ pages to explain each of those functions!
I know --and presumably you do as well-- that it isn't exactly prudent to report or complain about bugs on a DHO that has "options/lics" added(as you say), especially given that they haven't yet made/sold/given away "options" for 800/900's.

BTW: My "page 5" reply was an attempt to get you to realize(I even PM'd you) that you posted the clock hack in the "Bug report" thread, but that didn't seem to work.

The clock thing was not a hack. Simple SCPI command to re-enable it.

In hack thread we (most credit to zelea2) managed to get back gen tool for FW 00.01.02.00.02 by reverse engineering the new rigol crypt schema using RKey.data. That was a true hack.

[Lathe26]

I interpret "positive" to be normal composite video signal (e.g., yellow consumer video connector) and "negative" is inverted.  As to where "negative" is used, this how analog broadcast and analog cable RF signals are AM modulated in the US (can't speak for other countries or standards).  For example, US analog channel 3 uses a carrier of 61.25 MHz where the sync pulse has the largest amplitude while white has a small amplitude at this frequency.

I'm pretty sure oscilloscope video triggers only work on demodulated(I.e. not RF) video, so I don't understand what you're getting at?

BTW: Since this trigger function is so broken, maybe they didn't care to make the diagram match reality?  I'm guessing they will eventually remove the negative selector when they do.   I am ONLY referring to the NTSC/PAL video triggering, BTW.  Other video types(like VGA) utilize a variety of horizontal and vertical sync signalling to indicate different video modes., but never(to my knowledge) in a composite signal.

My expectation is the same; the oscilloscope operates on demodulated signals only.

The reason for the mention of NTCS broadcast signals was to answer the following question:

And what kind of device puts out composite video like what is shown in second pic?  I sure would like to see a spec for it.

Based on how NTSC broadcast signals work, there are some limited uses cases where "negative" triggering would be helpful.  For example, if someone was debugging / repairing a malfunctioning RF demodulator, then the "negative" triggering could be used immediately after the raw demodulation circuitry but before the video signal was properly inverted and normalized to the correct voltage ranges for composite video.

A second example for "negative" triggering would be that I've seen some weak references to specialized TV studio equipment that operate on inverted video signals.  However, given that I've never found actual equipment that does this (nor have I looked too hard), this example was originally omitted to avoid tangential discussions about whether such devices exist.

All that said, I'm also not a fan of the words "positive" and "negative" in the video triggering dialog.  It would be clearer to use "normal" for the first option and "inverted" for the second option (or other words to the same effect).

[AceyTech]

I did not get my point across, it seems. Let me try again:

You select the "positive" radio button. That means you set up the scope for positive video signal polarity -- i.e. the brightness signals are positive, and the HSync is negative. And that's what you get, unless I am mistaken; so no bug.

(Note that the positive/negative selector is not in the "Sync" group of controls in the dialog. It is in the "Video standard" line.)

Edit: Whether there is much practical relevance in even providing the "negative polarity" option is a different matter. I have not come across inverted video signals. But even if they are in use somewhere, couldn't one just invert the scope channel? Seems like a duplication of functionality.

You got your point across, your point just happened to be defending a defective/superfluous design decision on the part of Rigol.

Do you have access to a DHO800/900?  Watch the interface when you click the radio gadgets for Pos/Neg selectors.  Regardless what "line"?? they placed the gadgets on, It "inverts" the video AND the sync diagrams in the interface.  That's what I've shown via my pix and the problem that I have with it.
Anyone who has worked with video on an oscilloscope knows that if the video is inverted, the Syncs, color burst, front/back porches etc all stay where they're supposed to be, only the video levels change.

I'm accustomed to video triggers from a bazillion years ago when they cost a small fortune to lease --much less buy-- from the likes of Tek & LeCroy. -which have to be flawless for product design.  I have to constantly remind myself about the price point and intended use case when thinking about value brands like these.

I agree with your "Edit:" I'm just really confused why they would put this option in any of their scopes. IMHO, I don't think Pos/Neg selectors are needed on this section of the video trigger.

BTW: if anyone cares to read a quick hackaday post about video on scopes; Here is some light reading, using a different Rigol scope., -take note of the polarity button! 

[AceyTech]

My expectation is the same; the oscilloscope operates on demodulated signals only.

The reason for the mention of NTCS broadcast signals was to answer the following question:

And what kind of device puts out composite video like what is shown in second pic?  I sure would like to see a spec for it.

Based on how NTSC broadcast signals work, there are some limited uses cases where "negative" triggering would be helpful.  For example, if someone was debugging / repairing a malfunctioning RF demodulator, then the "negative" triggering could be used immediately after the raw demodulation circuitry but before the video signal was properly inverted and normalized to the correct voltage ranges for composite video.

A second example for "negative" triggering would be that I've seen some weak references to specialized TV studio equipment that operate on inverted video signals.  However, given that I've never found actual equipment that does this (nor have I looked too hard), this example was originally omitted to avoid tangential discussions about whether such devices exist.

All that said, I'm also not a fan of the words "positive" and "negative" in the video triggering dialog.  It would be clearer to use "normal" for the first option and "inverted" for the second option (or other words to the same effect).

I'm in agreement with you re: normal/inverted, but as @ebastler suggested, why not just invert the channel?

I highly doubt a "video trigger" on a scope would be applicable in your RF demodulator example.  First, they're meant to count out fields, frames, and lines, then zoom into a specific area of interest.  Maybe I'm reacting to the wording in your "examples". Seems like you're uncertain...  Sorry.
It seems to me a standard triggering method would be more appropriate.  I highly doubt the design peeps at Rigol plan the video trigger around someone working on Ch.3 @ 61+ Mhz.  Altho', HD signals have a pretty high frequency, they're generally discrete or component as opposed to NTSC/PAL composite signals.

Please think about this-  In your example above, in the case of "negative" triggering:  Are the HSyncs inverted? i.e., positive HSync as shown on the scope in my second screencap?

[Lathe26]

I highly doubt a "video trigger" on a scope would be applicable in your RF demodulator example.  First, they're meant to count out fields, frames, and lines, then zoom into a specific area of interest.  Maybe I'm reacting to the wording in your "examples". Seems like you're uncertain...  Sorry.
It seems to me a standard triggering method would be more appropriate.  I highly doubt the design peeps at Rigol plan the video trigger around someone working on Ch.3 @ 61+ Mhz.  Altho', HD signals have a pretty high frequency, they're generally discrete or component as opposed to NTSC/PAL composite signals.

Please think about this-  In your example above, in the case of "negative" triggering:  Are the HSyncs inverted? i.e., positive HSync as shown on the scope in my second screencap?

Standard triggering kind of could used as an alternative, the same way it kind of can be used now with video signals.  You can get by, but it isn't ideal.

The first example is definitive.  The second example is uncertain.

In the first example, the HSyncs would definitely be inverted (i.e., HSync has positive voltage).  They would look like the 2nd screenshot.  Thus, "negative" triggering would be used in this case.  Keep in mind this is for looking at signals after they have come out of the raw AM demodulator portion of the circuit but before the signal is inverted and normalized to produce the final and correct composite video signal.  This is because of how NTSC broadcast signals are defined and how AM demodulation works.  Only after the inversion occurs is where "positive" triggering is used (e.g., composite video signal).

As for Rigol including video triggering, I was surprised to see NTSC or PAL at all, whether normal or inverted.  A number of companies no longer support NTSC or PAL in their test equipment.

[Fungus]

Maybe it should be called "inverted" and "non-inverted".

Me? I think anybody with a neuron can understand it by looking at the on-screen graphic.

[Randy222]

This thread is titled "Bug Reports + Firmware".
Does that make this thread a 2-topic thread, "Bug Reports" and "Firmware" ?

As for FW 00.01.02.00.02, anyone have a bugs list for this latest FW, like new & fixed?
Trying to ascertain actual benefit to do the upgrade from 00.01.02.00.00 on an 800 device.

[Fungus]

As for FW 00.01.02.00.02, anyone have a bugs list for this latest FW, like new & fixed?
Trying to ascertain actual benefit to do the upgrade from 00.01.02.00.00 on an 800 device.

There's a list inside the firmware .zip file.

[Aleksandr]

This thread is titled "Bug Reports + Firmware".
Does that make this thread a 2-topic thread, "Bug Reports" and "Firmware" ?

As for FW 00.01.02.00.02, anyone have a bugs list for this latest FW, like new & fixed?
Trying to ascertain actual benefit to do the upgrade from 00.01.02.00.00 on an 800 device.

Model Supported] All the DHO800/900 series oscilloscopes
[Latest Revision Date] 2023/12/28

[Updated Contents]

v00.01.02.00.02  2023/12/28

1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Solve the problem that window transparency cannot load the last value
3. Solve the problem that the LA function cannot display the label after setting it


v00.01.02.00.01  2023/12/5

1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Solve edge jitter below 31kHz

v00.01.02.00.00  2023/11/2

1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Solve the problem of UltraLab startup connection failure
3. Solve the problem of failure to save waveform in wfm format
4. Solve the problem of unresponsive touch on startup screen

v00.01.01.00.02 2023/09/12

1. Self calibration optimization update
2. Update Help Documents

v00.01.01.00.01  2023/08/10

1. Remove all time-related displays on the instrument
2. To modify the vertical interface, click the wiring diagram to modify the AC coupling function
3. Modify the delayed scan Chinese display as Zoom
4. Modify the order of the menu in the upper right corner, put the measurement in the front and Default in the back
5. The probe ratio interface is removed, and the probe ratio option is added to the vertical first-level menu


v00.01.00.00.19  2023/07/24

1. The first version is released


-Released the production version.

[Randy222]

As for FW 00.01.02.00.02, anyone have a bugs list for this latest FW, like new & fixed?
Trying to ascertain actual benefit to do the upgrade from 00.01.02.00.00 on an 800 device.

There's a list inside the firmware .zip file.

There's a "new bugs" section in the list, in the FW zip file? I must have missed that.

I know about the release notes, and we are all wondering if "fixed self calibration" actually means anything, because every FW zip seems to have that in the list. So every new release the calibration is more optimized? How so?
 
What about fixing FFT flat-top calibration issue? Maybe optimizing calibration in each FW release is more important?

[levesqs]

HI everyone,  I am starting to do some test to compare of the DHO924s with my old ds1054z.  I have found so far some bug with the ASCII decoding and the pass/fail window and the XY display. I am slowly putting some video showing this and compare to the old ds1054z.  They will be at https://www.youtube.com/@stevelevesque939   

[axantas]

Along these lines, I just sent in a detailed bug report regarding the Video Triggering not working (via help@rigol.com).  This included details steps and photos.  Hopefully this helps.

Thanks for that.  Did your report include anything about the positive vs negative HSync selectors?

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)


I.e., Positive = Negative and Negative = Positive?
And what kind of device puts out composite video like what is shown in second pic?  I sure would like to see a spec for it.

I managed to get the (random) line Video trigger working. Triggering on Nth Edge does the job quite good Nth = 64uS PAL / 53.5uS NTSC triggers on one line. Usually this is, what I want to get, so until RIGOL manages to get it running as announced...

[lunix]

If that is just plain NTSC- the Vp-p is about double the 140 IRE units (1.0V p-p) it should be.  Can you confirm that's accurate?  Or is it another RIGOL measurement error?  Also, the trace is blue, but chan 1 and the scale are yellow.  I don't know how to interpret that.

[Lathe26]

My guess is that the video signal was not 75\$\Omega\$ terminated, hence the larger voltage ranges.  This is only a guess and could be wrong.

[axantas]

No, it is not terminated indeed, it is just a plain PAL output from a digital player, showing a testcard I created, that I usually use due to the lack of a decent generator. The blue trace is due to the color option I activated in the screen menu. It is channel 1 though...

[levesqs]

I got my 924s since two weeks now.
I started to make some compare video and bug search for the 924s and compare to the ds1054Z

last video here with a pass fail bug confirmed

[shapirus]

Apparently the latest (or maybe the one before the latest, with the ".00" in the end -- not sure how to see the minor revision number) firmware has already made it to the scopes being shipped now. I ordered mine about a month ago, and here's its "about" window, just to add to the knowledge base:




(sorry for the crappy photo -- no network connection and no proper screenshot before I take a backup image of the SD card)


UPDATE: full firmware version is 00.01.02.00.00

[axantas]

Apparently the latest (or maybe the one before the latest, with the ".00" in the end -- not sure how to see the minor revision number) firmware has already made it to the scopes being shipped now. I ordered mine about a month ago, and here's its "about" window, just to add to the knowledge base:

(Attachment Link)


(sorry for the crappy photo -- no network connection and no proper screenshot before I take a backup image of the SD card)

Oh, there is not only 00 at the end. The version is 00.01.02.00.02.
As this version is not listed at rigol.eu - here it is:
https://www.rigolna.com/firmware/
I downloaded the ''00.01.02.00.02" manually, see Build 2024/01/03 and Android  Build 2023/10/10 on a 900

Strange, strange, there is more behind the first 6 numbers, than we might imagine...
The other values are identical - except the model.

[shapirus]

Ah, so then mine must be older. Any idea how to see the full version number?