Rigol announces "serious" scope: DS70000

[H.O]

That secondary 3.5" touch screen is a novel touch :-)
But what about the probe interface/connectors, are they made from carbon fibre, conductive plastic or are they actually covered with black soldermask? Some images looks like renderings, others don't

Oh, and the electronic front panel sticker (as already mentioned) is nice! Now you can hack it AND have it reflected on the sticker :-)

Seriously though, interesting to see Rigol really stepping up their game, I hope they succeed.

[Martin72]

Maybe that was the reason they treated other rigol scopes so "badly", putting all their effort into this monster..

But what about the probe interface/connectors, are they made from carbon fibre, conductive plastic or are they actually covered with black soldermask? Some images looks like renderings, others don't

https://youtu.be/dEmAfCW8z-4

In the video, it looks different, "normal"....

Edit: And its rendering...

[egonotto]

Martin72:
"Batronix got it now:

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS70304.html"

Hello,

but the noise is too bad.
1 mV/div 500 uVrms (5 GHz 50 Ohm)
1 V/div     60 mVrms (5 GHz 50 Ohm)

Infiniium MXR:
1 mV/div 193 (?) uVrms (6 GHz 50 Ohm)
1 V/div 16.26 (?) mVrms (6 GHz 50 Ohm)
(?) makes it sense 3 or 4 digits for the noise measure?

Best regards
egonotto

[Martin72]

makes it sense 3 or 4 digits for the noise measure?

I don´t think so.
Noise...the "old" rigol problem.
And with 16bit it got a bandwith of 50/75Mhz.
But optically, it looks very cool.

[egonotto]

Hello,

1 mV/div and 2 mV/div are a magnification of 4 mV/div setting.

Now I dont understand the noise for 1mV/div, 2 mV/div and 5 mV/div
I expect 4 mV/div has 500 uVrms, but 5 mV/div has 800 uVrms noise (5 GHz 50 Ohm). I expect than only 625 mVrms.

Best regards
egonotto

[moore]

Sample rate is a deal breaker for me.  1 channel at 20Gs/s ok, but it drops to 10Gs/s at 2 or more channels?  No thanks.  I think all of the Keysight and Tek keep full rates for two channels at least.

The motorized tilt thingy seems like a 'sizzle' feature that is pretty pointless in actual useage.

[Bud]

Jeesus, wins the "Ugliest design of the year" award   

[TurboTom]

Sample rate is a deal breaker for me.  1 channel at 20Gs/s ok, but it drops to 10Gs/s at 2 or more channels?  No thanks.  I think all of the Keysight and Tek keep full rates for two channels at least.

The motorized tilt thingy seems like a 'sizzle' feature that is pretty pointless in actual useage.

You may want to check the footnotes in the specs: Sample rate reduction works the same way as in most four-channel scopes: As long as one channel of a "Group" is active, sample rate stays at 20G. A group is channel 1+3 and 3+4. So you can have two channels sampling at 20G by using a single channel of each group. Same for the sample memory.

[Martin72]

Infinivision 6 scopes got max 20GSa/s, which will be reduced to half when using all groups, therefore same behaviour as rigol.
Tek scopes, lecroy scopes will do the same.

[moore]

Sample rate is a deal breaker for me.  1 channel at 20Gs/s ok, but it drops to 10Gs/s at 2 or more channels?  No thanks.  I think all of the Keysight and Tek keep full rates for two channels at least.

The motorized tilt thingy seems like a 'sizzle' feature that is pretty pointless in actual useage.

You may want to check the footnotes in the specs: Sample rate reduction works the same way as in most four-channel scopes: As long as one channel of a "Group" is active, sample rate stays at 20G. A group is channel 1+3 and 3+4. So you can have two channels sampling at 20G by using a single channel of each group. Same for the sample memory.

Ah, OK.  That is a puzzling thing for them to call "single channel mode".  But I stand corrected. 

Martin72: yes, I am aware of how most scopes work for sample rate.  None of those OEMs call using two channels at once "single channel mode".  I can live with 2 channels at max rate rather than 4 or 8. 

[2N3055]

To be honest, new Keysight EXR and MXR claim 16GS/s on every channel.

[Bobson]

You'd be surprised how much stuff from the US gets exported to those countries. In the era when the USSR was still a thing US manufacturers would even go so far as to implemented features required by the KGB for monitoring purposes.

Any examples? Did they try to persuade Hewlett to increase sensitivity levels of their scopes or what? It guess it is BS.
Majority of Western T&M equipment (direct sales) came from Japan, Europe (esp. France, West Germany, Denmark) and the most popular US brand was Hewlett-Packard.

[mawyatt]

You'd be surprised how much stuff from the US gets exported to those countries. In the era when the USSR was still a thing US manufacturers would even go so far as to implemented features required by the KGB for monitoring purposes.

Any examples? Did they try to persuade Hewlett to increase sensitivity levels of their scopes or what? It guess it is BS.
Majority of Western T&M equipment (direct sales) came from Japan, Europe (esp. France, West Germany, Denmark) and the most popular US brand was Hewlett-Packard.

Wow, that's news to me!! The US State Department with ITAR carries a lot power and control over all US exports. Any company intentionally violating ITAR would likely not be around long, and including equipment features to intentionally help support KGB monitoring would result in immediate shut down and widespread criminal prosecution, and likely treason charges!!

Best, 

Edit: Case in point, when IBM developed the Cell Processor for the Playstation back in ~2000 they were paranoid about ITAR. So much so IBM even changed the Cell design so it would not work in anything except the Playstation when they found a Canadian company was lifting the Cell from the Playstation and placing it in a custom motherboard that ran Linux for CAD use. IBM was concerned that ITAR could view this CAD use of the Cell as supporting an US adversary.
 

[nctnico]

You'd be surprised how much stuff from the US gets exported to those countries. In the era when the USSR was still a thing US manufacturers would even go so far as to implemented features required by the KGB for monitoring purposes.

Any examples? Did they try to persuade Hewlett to increase sensitivity levels of their scopes or what? It guess it is BS.
Majority of Western T&M equipment (direct sales) came from Japan, Europe (esp. France, West Germany, Denmark) and the most popular US brand was Hewlett-Packard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SORM

[Bobson]

You'd be surprised how much stuff from the US gets exported to those countries. In the era when the USSR was still a thing US manufacturers would even go so far as to implemented features required by the KGB for monitoring purposes.

Any examples? Did they try to persuade Hewlett to increase sensitivity levels of their scopes or what? It guess it is BS.
Majority of Western T&M equipment (direct sales) came from Japan, Europe (esp. France, West Germany, Denmark) and the most popular US brand was Hewlett-Packard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SORM

Do you live in the eighties still? SORM started to deploy in the 21-st century, KGB and USSR are defunct since 1991. There is no mention in the article of any Western company changed anything to match SORM specs. More, SORM does NOT use extra functionality above standard router/switch/firewall features. All major things are made in software using port-mirrored traffic. There is enough support for traffic inspection and redirection in Cisco,Juniper,Nokia/Checkpoint and domestic devices.

Wiki's article says Israel Celebrite is used, they are wrong.

Your idea is not justified.

[nctnico]

Let's just say that I have been working in that particular field a couple of decades ago. I can't name names for the obvious reason western companies don't like to be known for implementing features in their equipment that aid repressive regimes. It took quite a bit of digging and getting rid of red tape to get access to that particular information at that time. I don't want to get political but looking at the current situation in Russia I'd say the USSR isn't really defunct; just not communistic (if it ever was).

[jjoonathan]

Every company I've ever been involved with has been eager to implement "lawful intercept" for any government that asks. IMO this is the "occam's razor" state of affairs -- there is a price on freedom and it's approximately $0.00 -- while it's the story where companies have morals and principles that needs to justify itself and provide evidence.

[Simon]

Shall we halt the politics please.

[moore]

To be honest, new Keysight EXR and MXR claim 16GS/s on every channel.

Interesting, I was unaware of that.  Slower than the competitive Tek models if only measuring 1-2 channels, but then faster for all at once. 

[2N3055]

To be honest, new Keysight EXR and MXR claim 16GS/s on every channel.

Interesting, I was unaware of that.  Slower than the competitive Tek models if only measuring 1-2 channels, but then faster for all at once.

16GS/s is plenty even for 6GHz version. And consistent sample rate is nice to have.

[Martin72]

What are the costs for the new keysight models ?

[2N3055]

What are the costs for the new keysight models ?

Quite a bit more than DS70000.
But they have much better front end. Also MXR has realtime SA mode too. All that combined with very comprehensive Infiniium software...
EXR and MXR are still new, so not yet as polished as you would expect from Keysight. But getting there.
Share amount of analysis options, decodes etc is many times what you get from Rigol.

All of those (including DS70000) are big, loud machines.. Not general purpose scopes...

[moore]

To be honest, new Keysight EXR and MXR claim 16GS/s on every channel.

Interesting, I was unaware of that.  Slower than the competitive Tek models if only measuring 1-2 channels, but then faster for all at once.

16GS/s is plenty even for 6GHz version.

Not for every use case.  It's been a complaint I have about KS vs Tek/Lecroy in this regard for these level scopes.  If you're looking at things that are well approximated by a sin(x)/x, then 2-3x Nyquist is fine.  If your waveform is more complex, you need more points, no getting around it. 

[hapax]

The motorized tilt thingy seems like a 'sizzle' feature that is pretty pointless in actual useage.

"Sizzle" implies something cool or desirable.  I think the word "gimmick" might be more appropriate here.

[hpw]

If I am after a such fast scope:

- 1..4 probes as as each in x'xxx Eu range to consider, so to pay again the same amount once more

- I do not see any figures/performance on the given Jitter analysis SW

- fast 50ps pulses results..

- would not like to have a simple demo, in other words to evaluate in house to test the beef about

- currently all looks for me as marketing

may the EEVblog chef tears down the box ... all is currently to early.