Rigol 5074 vs Siglent SDS2104X Plus vs Keysight DSOX1204G

[tautech]

- Siglent SDS2104X Plus 4x100Mhz + AWG = +/- 1700€ (normal price)

BTW this is wrong.
€1,199
https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/
Plus AWG @ USD220

[TurboTom]

- Siglent SDS2104X Plus 4x100Mhz + AWG = +/- 1700€ (normal price)

BTW this is wrong.
€1,199
https://www.siglenteu.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds2000xp/
Plus AWG @ USD220

Yes. And unfortunately plus 19~25% VAT, depending where in Europe you buy the equipment (as an end user that is -- if you buy as a business, you'll get the VAT refunded). @bestel specified the prices including VAT. We should compare "apples with apples"  .

[rf-loop]

Keysight DSOX1204G
+ High res bode plot ? (after firmware update)

Where ever I try look I can not find information about its real frequency resolution.


Example: If select 10MHz center and span is 500Hz. (Start 9.999750 MHz and stop 10.000250 MHz)
Question: What is maximum data points exactly in this case? Just in model DSOX1204G.



In Siglent 2000XPlus model this is 500pts.

(It responds 22 933 747 pts/decade with this said 10MHz case.
If do same 500Hz span sweep with 100MHz center it responds 229 337 475 pts/decade.
Why I say these numbers, just because some oscilloscopes data sheet list only points/decade)

In all cases Siglent maximum is 500pts, up to full span what is 10Hz - 50MHz with internal generator and up to 120MHz with external generator. Simultaneously for 3  DUT outputs.

[2N3055]

Question: What is maximum data points exactly in this case? Just in model DSOX1204G.

User manual says:

Points per decade [Analyze] > Setup > Pts Per Decade (10, 20, 30, 40, 50)

[rf-loop]

Question: What is maximum data points exactly in this case? Just in model DSOX1204G.

User manual says:

Points per decade [Analyze] > Setup > Pts Per Decade (10, 20, 30, 40, 50)

but there was told that after some FW update it is high resolution (perhaps)

50/decade

If do sweep from 10.0000MHz to 10.0005MHz  (500Hz)

When do sweep with Siglent, 100000pts/decade  it give just 4 points over this span as we know..
 

[bestel]

I think (I don't have this scope) this is wrong now, because it changed after a firmware update.
Now you don't set "points per decade", but "points", and you can set up to 1000 points.



And for tautech, This price tag is silly, we don't even know if it's with or without VAT.
But, OK, let's click on the "buy" option.
Now I have a list of dealer, I select "distrame" because I'm french and this is the only one for France, and guess what? I can't find this scope on distrame. They only have one reference : the SDS1000X-E. Wow, it's rock solid

Jokes apart, all my price tag come from here : https://www.polytech-oscilloscopes.com/
Of course it's just from a "French or European buyer" point of view.

[tautech]

And for tautech, This price tag is silly, we don't even know if it's with or without VAT.
But, OK, let's click on the "buy" option.
Now I have a list of dealer, I select "distrame" because I'm french and this is the only one for France, and guess what? I can't find this scope on distrame. They only have one reference : the SDS1000X-E. Wow, it's rock solid

Jokes apart, all my price tag come from here : https://www.polytech-oscilloscopes.com/
Of course it's just from a "French or European buyer" point of view.

Taxes are regional and one country may be much better than another so all Siglent websites advertise the RRP without taxes.
France has 3 Siglent agents and they are all listed here:
https://www.siglenteu.com/how-to-buy/

Many in the EU source from Batronix whom I believe has an excellent reputation.

[rf-loop]

I think (I don't have this scope) this is wrong now, because it changed after a firmware update.
Now you don't set "points per decade", but "points", and you can set up to 1000 points.



And for tautech, This price tag is silly, we don't even know if it's with or without VAT.
But, OK, let's click on the "buy" option.
Now I have a list of dealer, I select "distrame" because I'm french and this is the only one for France, and guess what? I can't find this scope on distrame. They only have one reference : the SDS1000X-E. Wow, it's rock solid

Jokes apart, all my price tag come from here : https://www.polytech-oscilloscopes.com/
Of course it's just from a "French or European buyer" point of view.

Video is about KS 4k models. Bit different level scope.
But it was now talking about Keysight DSOX1204G  not 4000 series. There IS high resolution FRA, this is well known. But I like to know what is real truth with Keysight DSOX1204G !

[tautech]

Video is about KS 4k models. Bit different level scope.
But it was now talking about Keysight DSOX1204G  not 4000 series. There IS high resolution FRA, this is well known. But I like to know what is real truth with Keysight DSOX1204G !

Still use of this bit different level scope displayed only a single FRA trace whereas a $499 SDS1104X-E can show 3 traces each with a phase result from different stages of a filter or DUT.....but of course I don't need to explain that to you. 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1x04x-e-bodeplot-ii-(sfra)-features-and-testing-(coming)/

[bestel]

Video is about KS 4k models. Bit different level scope.
But it was now talking about Keysight DSOX1204G  not 4000 series. There IS high resolution FRA, this is well known. But I like to know what is real truth with Keysight DSOX1204G !

Mmmmmh, I though it was a "global" firmware update, I think we need someone who have this scope.
I found this in the firmware 1.20 release note :

Enhancements
- Frequency Response Analysis (FRA):
o The sweep frequency range is no longer limited to decade values – it can now be
set to any frequency within the WaveGen’s limits.
o The “points per decade” setting has been changed to “total points” for ease of use.
o Chart:
 Minor gridlines for the horizontal axis are now shown to improve readability
of the plot.
 The chart’s horizontal display range is now independent of the Start/Stop
Frequency setting in the Setup Menu.

Source : https://www.keysight.com/fr/en/lib/software-detail/instrument-firmware-software/installing-infiniivision-1000-xseries-oscilloscope-firmware-2958151.html

So for me, the 1204G is concerned by this update shown in the video.
But again, we need to wait someone who did this update to be sure.



For the price, it's 1,426.81 with 20% VAT on batronix without AWG.
(20% is a fair common VAT)

[2N3055]

Video is about KS 4k models. Bit different level scope.
But it was now talking about Keysight DSOX1204G  not 4000 series. There IS high resolution FRA, this is well known. But I like to know what is real truth with Keysight DSOX1204G !

That is correct. On 3000T and 4000 series it is 1000 points, regardless of frequency span.

DSOX1204G  is not the same. What it is exactly, nobody knows because Keysight is apparently suddenly incompetent to make a proper datasheet, or deliberately obscuring these facts.
Or think these are toy scopes and nobody cares anyways..

I went and downloaded fresh datasheet from Keysight. It says 1000 points across frequency range. So that settles it.


Marketing here is very, very shady, trumpeting "same Megazoom chipset" and users start thinking they get basically the same scope as bigger ones. They don't.
Those chipsets are just a part of architecture and can be applied and are applied differently in 1000, 2000, 3000A, 3000T/4000 and 6000...
Many things are scope applications (like FRA), and will differ between price ranges.

[2N3055]

Mmmmmh, I though it was a "global" firmware update, I think we need someone who have this scope.
I found this in the firmware 1.20 release note :

Enhancements
- Frequency Response Analysis (FRA):
o The sweep frequency range is no longer limited to decade values – it can now be
set to any frequency within the WaveGen’s limits.
o The “points per decade” setting has been changed to “total points” for ease of use.
o Chart:
 Minor gridlines for the horizontal axis are now shown to improve readability
of the plot.
 The chart’s horizontal display range is now independent of the Start/Stop
Frequency setting in the Setup Menu.

Source : https://www.keysight.com/fr/en/lib/software-detail/instrument-firmware-software/installing-infiniivision-1000-xseries-oscilloscope-firmware-2958151.html

So for me, the 1204G is concerned by this update shown in the video.
But again, we need to wait someone who did this update to be sure.



For the price, it's 1,426.81 with 20% VAT on batronix without AWG.
(20% is a fair common VAT)

There is no global update. 1000 series are vastly different machines, that run Linux instead Windows Embedded, and have nothing in common with the rest of the range except A/D Meagzoom IV chip itself.

[bestel]

Did you read the firmware 1.20 release note?

The sweep frequency range is no longer limited to decade values – it can now be
set to any frequency within the WaveGen’s limits.
The “points per decade” setting has been changed to “total points” for ease of use.

[2N3055]

Did you read the firmware 1.20 release note?

The sweep frequency range is no longer limited to decade values – it can now be
set to any frequency within the WaveGen’s limits.
The “points per decade” setting has been changed to “total points” for ease of use.

I didn't read release note because I don't own 1000 but 3000T so I don't download firmware for scopes I don't have...

But I did go and find new datasheet directly from Keysight that does say 1000 points total across chosen frequency range.
So you are correct about 1000 points, and that makes it same as on 3000T/4000.

But just to make it clear, firmware is different for all of them. Codebase too.

[bestel]

Yes of course, when I say "global update", it was more as a "user concern".
For a brand like keysight, when you flag an oscilloscope "megazoom IV" and provide some improvements on high-end, the client can expect the brand to provide a "synchronized" firmware update on the lower end (for the same capabilities of course, apple and apple).

Of course in reality, it's far more complex than that.

[2N3055]

Yes of course, when I say "global update", it was more as a "user concern".
For a brand like keysight, when you flag an oscilloscope "megazoom IV" and provide some improvements on high-end, the client can expect the brand to provide a "synchronized" firmware update on the lower end (for the same capabilities of course, apple and apple).

Of course in reality, it's far more complex than that.

Not really complicated..

They provided full memory and better Bode plot only because they were publicly ridiculed. Original marketing campaign was very pompous ( "Buy real instruments, not toys") and when apart from cool name all the "toys" were better at almost all the specs, they dialed down the "smack" talk, and enabled better specs to save face...

They all sell image of premium products and convince users that all they sell is premium products.
Which is truth only for their midrange and high end products. Entry level will be even worse in many aspects than same priced products from mainstream manufacturers.

And they will react only if company brand image is in question. Which happened here with 1000 series.

But, hey, they did the right thing eventually and now people that have that product are better off...

[bestel]

I think they just faced a lot of user request, and respond with a firmware update.
By the way you can see a lot of comment on Youtube from the "Keysight guys", even if there is only 20k view.
For me, that sort of thing mean A LOT about how the brand consider its clients.

Of course, it's my opinion and I don't know any Keysight engineer nor am I in relation with them to know the truth.


When you're buying a Rigol or a Siglent, you're not buying the same thing.
Look at the screen update rate, the responsiveness of the UI, the decode update rate.
A lot of thing you will encounter are not in the datasheet.
You cannot rely only on it, you need to see the global picture.


And this is why this thread is all about, all scopes have pros and cons, and everyone can then decide.
For me, there is no a "clear winner" between theses 3 scopes.

[nctnico]

Yes of course, when I say "global update", it was more as a "user concern".
For a brand like keysight, when you flag an oscilloscope "megazoom IV" and provide some improvements on high-end, the client can expect the brand to provide a "synchronized" firmware update on the lower end (for the same capabilities of course, apple and apple).

Of course in reality, it's far more complex than that.

My assumption is that the newer, lower end scopes from Keysight run Linux where the higher end but older models still run on WinCE. Getting functionality across is likely more work than just copying a file (or changing a define) and hit the 'compile' button.

[2N3055]

Yes of course, when I say "global update", it was more as a "user concern".
For a brand like keysight, when you flag an oscilloscope "megazoom IV" and provide some improvements on high-end, the client can expect the brand to provide a "synchronized" firmware update on the lower end (for the same capabilities of course, apple and apple).

Of course in reality, it's far more complex than that.

My assumption is that the newer, lower end scopes from Keysight run Linux where the higher end but older models still run on WinCE. Getting functionality across is likely more work than just copying a file (or changing a define) and hit the 'compile' button.

You are correct. While they might be able to port basic numeric and DSP algorithms in C left and right, code  is mostly a rewrite, because of application model differences. Fact that FRA (and basic UI of scope) looks very similar to the WinCE scopes is because someone had to make effort to emulate that look in new environment with a new framework.

[2N3055]

I think they just faced a lot of user request, and respond with a firmware update.
By the way you can see a lot of comment on Youtube from the "Keysight guys", even if there is only 20k view.
For me, that sort of thing mean A LOT about how the brand consider its clients.

Of course, it's my opinion and I don't know any Keysight engineer nor am I in relation with them to know the truth.


When you're buying a Rigol or a Siglent, you're not buying the same thing.
Look at the screen update rate, the responsiveness of the UI, the decode update rate.
A lot of thing you will encounter are not in the datasheet.
You cannot rely only on it, you need to see the global picture.


And this is why this thread is all about, all scopes have pros and cons, and everyone can then decide.
For me, there is no a "clear winner" between theses 3 scopes.

Keysight do care a lot about brand image with customer. That coincides with showing care for customers, but is not necessarily the same. I met some Keysight people and all of them were very nice and decent people. But corporation is corporation, never forget that.

As you nicely put, all 3 are different and have it's pros and cons. For a scope that needs to emulate feel of analog scope, Keysight is best. For everything else is acceptable or subpar. Rigol is OK for low speed digital (4 decodes etc, and for that super low noise and sensitivity is not so important, decent refresh rate). Siglent is very good for analog (to the point that it is in a class of scopes 2-3x more expensive for low level analog), and decent for digital. I also like GUI concept best. To me it's best overall. It has it's specific memory management that can be problem to some... It also have 2 decodes and  CAN FD.. So yeah mixed bag..

As for your comment about not everything is in datasheets, that is so right. But that also applies to big brands too.

For instance, you won't really understand what short memory means until you try to capture startup transient 100 ms long and realize you don't see that 20 MHz burst because of low sample rate. Or decode long sequence of protocol and not being able to see fast interference that confuses device while receiving, because of the same problem. There are many little things that I expected to work certain way on my 3000T that don't..

For instance, you cannot create custom masks on the scope, despite it having touch screen. You can either do Automask (you provide good signal and then define area around it), or you have to create custom mask on PC in text editor and load it on USB stick and load it in scope... On a 18000 USD retail scope.. Otoh, AWG editor is really nice... go figure..

[Fungus]

- Siglent SDS2104X Plus 4x100Mhz + AWG = +/- 1700€ (normal price)

BTW this is wrong.
€1,199

With that math the Rigol is only 899 €.

https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-MSO5074.html

[mawyatt]

Keysight do care a lot about brand image with customer. That coincides with showing care for customers, but is not necessarily the same. I met some Keysight people and all of them were very nice and decent people. But corporation is corporation, never forget that.

I have designed in a Keysight exclusive semiconductor fab, and know a number of senior Keysight folks (Technical Fellows, VPs, CTO), and can confirm your assessment of the Keysight folks. They are also some of the brightest and most creative technical folks I've ever run across, and will always lend a helping hand to customers we've found. However as you correctly mention, Keysight is a corporation, a public corporation, and must perform financially to survive. Many engineers/scientists often don't see the total  business side of things, myself included, and come to conclusions without this consideration.

Best,

[bestel]

Of course Keysight is a company, but you know, there is a lot of different way for a company to make profits.
They're sharing things, they make a lot of cool videos. I don't think they're forced to do so.
They could make the decision to make video like Rigol, scope vs scope, and... Hooo surprise, my scope is the best of the world blablabla. I know Keysight answered, but they did not mention the name of the brand.
And yes, I don't like the way Rigol make comparisons.

So you see, a company make choices, and these choice means A LOT.


Talking a bit more about the Keysight, I think it's the more underestimated of the 3 here, partially because of it's price range vs capabilities, so many hobbyist will even not consider buying it just because of its datasheet.

But, in real life, just the refresh rate can be a real life saver when decoding for example. As far as the responsiveness of the UI after 3 days of debugging.

For long term digital acquisition, I will not ever turn on an oscilloscope, I will use a good USB protocol analyzer. That way, I can record very long data, compare multiple runs, and also decode pretty ANY protocols that exist.

But I do agree that FFT and bode plot is 2 real things that a scope need to do nowadays. 2 things Rigol seems to not care about, but at the same time, it's also the less expensive of the 3... So it will depend of the needs.


Well, that said, it's never an easy choice.


By the way, does someone already measured the ENOB of these 3 scopes?

[bestel]

Just a tiny update, as I just bought the Keysight 1204g (I tested it some hours), this is the good information since firmware version 2.10 :

• Memory depth has been increased to 2 Mpts (worth case is 500us of data (50us/div) at 1GSa/s - 4 channels before drop)
• Waveform has been increased to 200,000 (not 50,000 anymore)
• Support for USB keyboard
• All decode mode included, with a free license of keysight benchvue (powerfull PC control app, scriptable)
• Segmented memory : max segments increased to 500, and re-arm time is 1µs
• High-res bode plot are possible, 1000 points max at any start/stop frequencies

And during these hours, I liked a lot of things :

• The scope responsiveness is perfect, all operations are done by hardware so the scope never slow done, this is great
• Buttons and knobs are perfect to me, no overshoot
• There is not a lot of menus, and they all make sense
• You can do one step of easy math "internally" (+, -, x) , and then reuse this result to do another math
• You can set the trigger internally to the wavegen
• And btw, I didn't expect the external trigger behind
• Probes are really nice, 4x200MHz even with the stock 70MHz (N2140A)
• The built-in help is useful (and well translated), like FFT windows explanations (pros / cons)
• The internal probe check works nice (and all probes came calibrated)
• High-res mode works really good (see the picture for the bit gain) and clean a lot of noise (less bandwidth)

What I disliked :

• The noise of the rear fan... I sent a message to my reseller we will see... I won't sent back my unit for that, but I hope they will give me the CFM specs 

Note that you can do only one math at a time, and can't do math + FFT.
(but you can do simple math (+, -, x) and then reuse the result to do FFT)


I know there is not a lot of review out there, and when there is one it's outdated... So don't hesitate to ask me, I will do my best.

If I remove the fan noise (which is not a huge deal - noctua for the win) I'm really amazed!
The BenchVue application looks pretty amazing, with log and scriptable UI, I have to test it.

If you read the entire thread and still don't know which one to buy... Well like I said before, it's 3 good scopes 

[Steve12366]

Normi, did you get the MSO 5074 in the end ? If so, how is it, and did you do the hack too ?
Thanks Steve