Author Topic: REVIEW - Siglent SDS2000 series - A Comparison of Features with Rigol DS2000  (Read 70230 times)

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Offline marmadTopic starter

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...but if I turn on antialiasing in acquire menu - it produces many false spikes on FFT. It looks like FFT gets points after aliasing processing.

I just noticed you wrote, "...in acquire menu". but I didn't mean Antialiasing in Acquire menu, I meant Antialiasing in Math->FFT menu - it has a much different result, as you can see in the two images made with no Averaging. Is that what you meant as well?
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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Thanks Marmad. I have to watch this review.  :-+
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Offline rf-loop

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May be Siglent samples data with 2Gs/sec and sends to FFT only first 2048 points from the captured 14Mpoints frame, while Rigol get 2048 points uniformly distributed in the sampled frame (14Mpoints).

I can not now test - far away from lab with urgent works - but yes, this is also my opinion, releted to what I remember what I have tested.   It do not collect 2048 sample points from whole captured memory using low virtual samplerate. Samplerate in image is 2GSa/s and so Nyquist limit is 1GHz.
It produce 0-1GHz FFT from these 2048 points. So resolution is around 1MHz. Of course this can not use for audio.

For 0-100kHz FFT there need be 200kSa/s sampling speed. With this resolution can be 1kHz.

FFT zoom do not add resolution but 2x or 5x give better visibility due to display resolutin vs FFT resolution.

This means you can not look nice 1kHz triangle wave in upper window and then look same time example some lowest harmonics. Because upper window can not zoom so that only FFT used samples are on the window.  Siglent do not separately "down sample" sampling buffer for FFT.
If there read example 2GSa/s samplerate, it is also FFT samplerate as far as I can remember my tests.

Also FFT settings / Oscilloscope settings may need some exercise to find how to set it.

I hope some later FW make things better for splitted window FFT useability.

Later after I have some enough long time slice for this I can make some FFT tests and show pictures and so on. This have been in waiting queye long time. (it was originally pushed to waiting queye due to very early FW and lack of functions)

There is also other problem if I want do some performance tests, specially related to vertical. It is because my SDS2304 is early preliminary version and it looks that it have some very early HW problems).
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Online tautech

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There is also other problem if I want do some performance tests, specially related to vertical. It is because my SDS2304 is early preliminary version and it looks that it have some very early HW problems).
Mark, the latest HW is 5.3, would you list your HW version in the OP please.
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Offline marmadTopic starter

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Mark, the latest HW is 5.3, would you list your HW version in the OP please.

Done.
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

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For 0-100kHz FFT there need be 200kSa/s sampling speed. With this resolution can be 1kHz.

FFT zoom do not add resolution but 2x or 5x give better visibility due to display resolutin vs FFT resolution.

Got it; thanks for the clarification.

Yes, I was used to seeing the separate FFT sample rate that changes with every timebase on the Rigol - so was stupidly wondering why the sample rate wasn't shifting when changing the timebase - while having memory length set to 14M!  :-[

Anyway, here are the tests again, with better results; I leave FFT zoom on 2x. It seems 10mVpp might be a bit low for the Siglent, but I made images using 50mVpp, 100mVpp, and 500mVpp, all of them using Average-128 acquire mode.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 03:03:04 pm by marmad »
 

Offline Mark_O

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I lack the attention span for listening to everything so I probably skip over the part I'm interested in  >:D

That sounds like an unfortunate handicap.   :P

Quote
Try to cut that video down to 5 minutes.

Well, that's easily solved.  Just download the video, and play it back at 16X.  Voila!  5 minute runtime.
 

Offline Mark_O

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Table of contents:
Mark,

thanks a lot for the extremely well done review.  I've been waiting for some time to see the new Siglent in operation, as I am sure many other folks have as well.  I was happy to see that you didn't fall into the trap, as many others might have, of simply finding and enumerating the small bugs in operation of the current firmware.  Naturally it will have those, as all new units will, but those are the things most easily rectified, and thus most quickly made irrelevant in a review.

Instead, you focused on a functional evaluation, and put it in the context of another well-known, and high-quality, scope.  I think that helped a lot, and not just for comparing two specific units.  You also managed to maintain a fair perspective, which isn't always easy for those already owning a different option.  I found your balanced criticisms of both units, as well as comments on their relative strong points, to be especially valuable.  And providing an Index into the video will be especially helpful for anyone wanting to go back and review any specific aspect.

As for the unit itself, it looks like it has a lot of good capabilities.  As well as some disappointing limitations.  Some smaller examples would be it's lack of Advanced Operations in Math.  On the Rigol, that enables things like defining CH1*CH1/8, which permits direct examination of amplifier power output (V-sqrd/loadR).  And the inability to run Decodes on segmented acquisitions is a huge fail, in my book.  However, assuming Siglent is committed to this product line (and I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise), I doubt it will take them 2 years to correct that, as it did Rigol on the DS2000 (and still haven't, on their DS4000).  This is the type of thing that boggles my mind.

But most disappointing to me was the lack of any meaningful ability to navigate the huge sample sets that the unit is capable of capturing.  Whether in Frame mode or History mode, it can collect more data than you could ever do anything useful with.  Which is a real shame, since it basically negates a very powerful feature.  It's bad enough that there is no quick access mechanism, just slow knob twiddling, but that's compounded by the inability to even vary the Playback speed.  I wonder if Siglent is ready for the barrage of Carpal-Tunnel lawsuits that will follow.   >:D   [And guys, I'm only half kidding!]

[I sense a product opportunity though... a small motor with a knob gripper.  Just press a a FWD or REV button, and let the motor churn away for a few minutes.   :phew:]

OTOH, the hardware seems very sound, both in design and implementation.  Which means Siglent has a strong base to work from.  Features can always be added, and rough spots in software smoothed out.  But hardware issues are a much larger problem.  So kudos to Siglent's hardware group for their accomplishment there, on this next generation of hardware capabilities for them.

Let's hope that their firmware team is hard at work improving things, and is being supplied with user experiences and concerns from the field.  Once their embedded software catches up to their hardware, they'll have a very competitive product.


And for those concerned about the length of the review, I can't think of any way one could get a clearer picture of the strengths and weaknesses, or capabilities and limitations, than the video Mark has put together.  Someone could take the time to write down a text summarization... but that would then be nothing more than a set of claims/opinions.  The video let's you see things with your own eyes, so you can form your own conclusions.  This isn't a verbose, hem-haw puff piece, as many amateur YT presentations often are.  It's a solid set of visual demonstrations, combined with intelligent, informed commentary.  Well worth investing 80-minutes of time, for anyone seriously considering purchasing a scope in this price/performance category.
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

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Mark,

thanks a lot for the extremely well done review.  I've been waiting for some time to see the new Siglent in operation, as I am sure many other folks have as well.  I was happy to see that you didn't fall into the trap, as many others might have, of simply finding and enumerating the small bugs in operation of the current firmware.  Naturally it will have those, as all new units will, but those are the things most easily rectified, and thus most quickly made irrelevant in a review.

You're welcome, Mark - and thank you for your thoughtful and kind response.

I wish I could have tested the Digital option of the MSO, but alas, no connectors. I have to say, I think the AWG option seems quite nicely implemented and seems to work well (although I never figured out how to stop the DSO from forgetting all of my settings in the AWG every time I turned the scope on and off - but perhaps that's because it's on trial, and not a purchased option) - but I didn't include anything about the AWG in the review since I don't have the S version of the DS2000 to compare against. But it's implementation might be a good sign for Siglent's implementation of the MSO features.
 

Online tautech

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I think the AWG option seems quite nicely implemented and seems to work well (although I never figured out how to stop the DSO from forgetting all of my settings in the AWG every time I turned the scope on and off - but perhaps that's because it's on trial, and not a purchased option) - but I didn't include anything about the AWG in the review since I don't have the S version of the DS2000 to compare against.
I have an AWG enabled model.
I can confirm that AWG does forget settings on reboot. Returns to default setup.
Strange, considering there is a Default setup softkey in the AWG menu.

No doubt an easy fix in firmware, I will point Siglent to this bug.
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Offline nctnico

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If all goes well I will receive my SDS2204 with MSO option on monday (finally; DHL lost it for a while |O). I'll try to do a short review on the MSO bit and some other things.

About the AWG (I didn't buy that option): My SDG1010 from Siglent also goes back to default after power on. It does have an option to save settings. IIRC my Lecroy AWG420 did the same: start with it's defaults. OTOH the ESG4400 series RF generator I have seems to start with the last settings (which could mean output a signal). The choice wether to keep the last settings or not at power up can be food for a long debate. Sometimes it's handy sometime it's not. Either way I'd expect an AWG to be able to save it's settings and restore them later.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 10:38:37 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tautech

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About the AWG (I didn't buy that option): My SDG1010 from Siglent also goes back to default after power on. It does have an option to save settings. IIRC my Lecroy AWG420 did the same: start with it's defaults. OTOH the ESG4400 series RF generator I have seems to start with the last settings (which could mean output a signal). The choice wether to keep the last settings or not at power up can be food for a long debate. Sometimes it's handy sometime it's not. Either way I'd expect an AWG to be able to save it's settings and restore them later.

So would I, as a "Default" button is provided in the AWG menu, one would reasonably expect any settings should be retained and then use that Default button as needed.
The DSO itself retains other user settings and if Default settings are needed, they are then selected.
This is what one would consider normal/logical behavior, is it not?
It would be nice to see all test equipment that has menu driven settings adopt these simple user expectations.
Otherwise have a main menu option to boot all to default or save all last settings.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 08:38:55 am by tautech »
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Offline AlfBaz

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Hi Marmad, I would also like to add my thanks for your video review.

I especially like the contents index, as this can also be used as check-list for future firmware updates

I have been waiting to see what develops with this scope as the last time I looked at it there was some confusion (may be there still is) with the MSO availability.
Seeing some of the issues with the decoding it appears to me the firmware for it is still a ways off.


 

Offline rf-loop

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My SDG1010 from Siglent also goes back to default after power on.

Not want steal this thread for this. Only just simple sidenote. If need more then other thread.
Just tested SDG1010
If selected in system menu PowerOn:Last it remember last state (exept that after new power on outputs are off.) But I have not tested what is time interval how often it store current stateƶ. (some  seconds perhaps)

Utility: menu side 1.  Go to system menu side 2 and slect PowerOn:Last,  then go to system menu side 1 and push Done.
After then it remember last state. If after settings change very fast shut off, then erhaps last change is not yet stored.
I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

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Offline Fsck

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have you tried waveform update rate with 1&3 vs 1&2?
"This is a one line proof...if we start sufficiently far to the left."
 

Offline rf-loop

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have you tried waveform update rate with 1&3 vs 1&2?

They are all here
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 10:10:25 am by rf-loop »
I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the wises gone?
 

Offline Fsck

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@rf-loop, epic thanks.
"This is a one line proof...if we start sufficiently far to the left."
 

Offline rf-loop

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Anyway, here are the tests again, with better results; I leave FFT zoom on 2x. It seems 10mVpp might be a bit low for the Siglent, but I made images using 50mVpp, 100mVpp, and 500mVpp, all of them using Average-128 acquire mode.

Here 2kHz triangle, 10mVpp


I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the wises gone?
 

Offline nctnico

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In general: When using the FFT function on an oscilloscope it is best to set the volt/div so the signal fills the entire height of the screen. That will give maximum FFT resolution. For low frequency work it also helps to turn on the high resolution mode (if the oscilloscope has that).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rf-loop

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In general: When using the FFT function on an oscilloscope it is best to set the volt/div so the signal fills the entire height of the screen. That will give maximum FFT resolution. For low frequency work it also helps to turn on the high resolution mode (if the oscilloscope has that).

Yes. Totally agree.

 Example in my last image signal is around 10dB from max. It was just for demomstrate so that windowed zoom together with FFT give picture where FFT do not overlay so much zoomed YT signal. It was not at all adjusted for thinking maximum vertical resolution for continuous uniform waveform.
If want absolutely best, signal maximum level is ~10div (it is ADC full scale). (Siglent vertical display screen range is 8div) Good "thumb rule" is:  keep signal max peaks so that it just fills vertical area. Exept if signal is so small that can not.  If use maximum 10div signal it need  carefully check that any part or signal do not clip.  If signal is clipped or go other way badly unlinear area result is garbage due to high amount of harmonics.


« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 11:48:11 am by rf-loop »
I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the wises gone?
 

Offline marmadTopic starter

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In general: When using the FFT function on an oscilloscope it is best to set the volt/div so the signal fills the entire height of the screen. That will give maximum FFT resolution. For low frequency work it also helps to turn on the high resolution mode (if the oscilloscope has that).
Since the Siglent only goes to 2mV/div, a 10mVpp signal is only going to fill 5 divs maximum. As I showed in my previous image - and here, replicated again using rf-loops timebase settings - the DSO clips the FFT graph at the bottom when filling the screen as much as possible using 2mV/div.

 

Offline wpwrak

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marmad, thanks for the great review ! Seems that segment mode could enormously benefit from having a knob to change that factor of 20 in overlay mode, much like one changes the time base for moving around in a long recording.

One thing you didn't mention was overall responsiveness of basic operations. Especially with deep memory some scopes can get painfully slow when doing simple things like changing the horizontal/vertical position of a waveform. How do the two compare in that regard ?

All those bugs make me wonder how long it'll be until we'll see a company be courageous enough to make a scope with state of the art hardware, designed for Open Source firmware. Even if the original firmware is very simple, it would allow the user community to pick things up from there, add features (like more advanced protocol decoders, sigrok-style). Also, the sort of glaring issues you mentioned (and the many more oddities others have found) would hardly be a concern since there would be a lot of people out there who could fix them.

- Werner
 

Offline Hydrawerk

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So I have watched the youtube review of SDS2000. It is a typical Chinese product. Good price and hardware but many small or bigger problems with usability. Front panel design was clearly inspired by Agilent DSOX2000 and knobs were copied from LeCroy scopes.  :)
Somehow I like that Rigol makes their very own design not similar to Agilent, Tektronix or LeCroy.
I hope that all the bugs in SDS2000 firmware will be fixed in next years. But remember that this scope is not so much new, it was released in November 2013 according to their website. http://www.siglent.com/en/news/detail.aspx?id=100000065214624&nodecode=119002004
Still is much better than that funny GW Instek GDS2000A scope.  :-- :--
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Offline Hydrawerk

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Here are some videos made by Siglant staff.
https://www.youtube.com/user/SiglentVideo/videos


More can be found at
https://www.youtube.com/user/SiglentVideo/videos
I think that there is no fine horizontal setting at SDS2000. That is not good.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 04:15:39 pm by Hydrawerk »
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Offline rf-loop

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marmad, thanks for the great review ! Seems that segment mode could enormously benefit from having a knob to change that factor of 20 in overlay mode,
.
.

- Werner

Yes. I also wish that Siglent change this (and some other things also in segment mode and history search)

1 segment to max 20 segment overlay is now selectable and this max need be much more. Also there need be one selection for overlay all frames. (with intensity grading of course), just one button, "overlay all segments". Perhaps maximum 20 segment is ok for waterfall display mode  due to fact that it is 800x480 TFT.  But  limit max 20  is not good  for overlay mode.
Good tools for watch, analyse and search captured segments is important. Also analyzing  need include  timestamps related analyzing.



« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 04:53:23 pm by rf-loop »
I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the wises gone?
 


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