Recommendation Request - NEW Rigol DS1054Z or USED Tektronix 2467BHD

[vk6zgo]

As most have said, the Rigol is the way to go. My own experience was 40+ years of analogue scopes as a servicing tech, I retired and "put up with" a dual beam 100 MHz Philips scope, it had a few minor faults (dirty switches, poor triggering, etc.) and then finally blew the power supply.

I had fancied a digital scope for some time but the early ones were pretty awful (at least in my price range). When the old scope failed, I bought a 1054Z based on Dave's video review and don't regret it at all. The saving in shelf space alone was worth it 

These days the scope is used for ham radio development and construction, the four channels are great to measure timing of control circuits, something that is tedious with a dual channel analogue scope and child's play with the 1054Z. I doubt the Rigol will last as long as the Philips did, but they are cheap enough and by then I probably won't care either.

Tedious with a 2 channel,maybe,but not with a 7000 series Tek with two vertical plugins!

[Rupunzell]

For those who do near zero work with digital this becomes a non-significnat feature... along with the data box.

The proper choice of DSO-MOS -vs- analog is a LOT more complex than a DSO's ability to store, retrieve, digitize and transmit converted data.

Those who are truly aware is likely going to choose the ideal instrument to fit a specific need. DSO-MSO domination of the time domain instrument market today appears to be due to the sheer-mass number of digital centric electronics folks along with software centric pre-packaged hardware offerings use to make the vast majority of techno widgets today.



Bernice

But no analog scope will do this:

[Alex Nikitin]

Well, just as a teaser - could somebody post a screen shot from the Rigol DS1054Z (or a similar DSO scope) of a 100Mhz signal with 50% AM modulation at 1kHz. A screen from the Tek 2465BCT is below.

Cheers

Alex

[EEVblog]

Who made the DSO3062A?It doesn't look very Agilent, is it an older rebadged Rigol?

Yep, just a rebaged early Rigol
Agilent helped Rigol set up and perfect their production and other stuff, and they now regret that deeply.

[Alex Nikitin]

Who made the DSO3062A?It doesn't look very Agilent, is it an older rebadged Rigol?

Yep, just a rebaged early Rigol
Agilent helped Rigol set up and perfect their production and other stuff, and they now regret that deeply.

Yes, and I knew that when I was buying it seven years ago. Still, not in a hurry to upgrade as it does what I need it for, for the rest of my work the analogue Tek is better anyway.

Cheers

Alex

[Howardlong]

Well, just as a teaser - could somebody post a screen shot from the Rigol DS1054Z (or a similar DSO scope) of a 100Mhz signal with 50% AM modulation at 1kHz. A screen from the Tek 2465BCT is below.

Source: HP 8656B, 50% 1kHz AM modulating 100MHz -10dBm carrier.

Rigol DS1054Z suffers beating and intensity gradient doesn't work at all well (24Mpts, 1GSa/s).


Tek MDO3054 has similar difficulties with intensity grtading (10Mpts, 1.25GSa/s).


Aglient/Keysight MSO7104B looks better, but by no means perfect. Looks better if the timebase time is reduced and therefore sampling rate increased (8Mpts, 400MSa/s).


So in short I think you're going to struggle to get an analogue style display on most DSOs with this particular test. Whether the test is a reasonable and regularly experienced scenario, I'll leave for others. Certainly it's not one I encounter in practice, although I'm aware it's a common test albeit usually with a much more relaxed carrier:modulation ratio. I'd be using a frequency domain instrument first and foremost for this myself!

[G0HZU]

So in short I think you're going to struggle to get an analogue style display on most DSOs with this particular test. Whether the test is a reasonable and regularly experienced scenario, I'll leave for others. Certainly it's not one I encounter in practice,

A classic two tone test waveform for an SSB transmitter is a good example for showing the relative strengths and weaknesses of analogue vs digital scopes.

In the time domain a decent analogue scope CRT (eg something a class above the Tek 2465 CRT) is really nice to look at provided the CRT is well set up. The 2465 really isn't a good choice here. Some of the older Tek scopes really are wonderful to use like this as they have a really sharp display. eg the Tek 453 series or even my old Tek 585.

But the DSO will be king in the frequency domain because the analogue scope can't compete here at all. Even my little TDS2012 can show the bandwidth of the signal using the FFT mode and it can display distortion terms of AM or SSB signals quickly and easily with decent refresh rate and reasonable dynamic range as well.

Partly why I keep my old Tek 465 is for (casually) looking at modulated RF waveforms in the time domain because it is so easy to use for stuff like this. I've not found a DSO at work that can compete (at a realistic price point) for time domain stuff like this. But pretty much everywhere else, even my old TDS2012 kills the 465 in terms of scope performance.

[Alex Nikitin]

So in short I think you're going to struggle to get an analogue style display on most DSOs with this particular test. Whether the test is a reasonable and regularly experienced scenario, I'll leave for others. Certainly it's not one I encounter in practice, although I'm aware it's a common test albeit usually with a much more relaxed carrier:modulation ratio. I'd be using a frequency domain instrument first and foremost for this myself!

This is just an easily repeatable example. And (importantly) you knew exactly what the signal contains and could play with setting on a DSO. Now imagine that you are looking at the output waveform of an audio power amplifier which has a mild oscillation about 20MHz frequency (say 200mV p-p) occurring near clipping on 1kHz 60V p-p sine wave . You don't know it is there. What chances are to see it with a DSO?

Cheers

Alex

[Wuerstchenhund]

Well, just as a teaser - could somebody post a screen shot from the Rigol DS1054Z (or a similar DSO scope) of a 100Mhz signal with 50% AM modulation at 1kHz. A screen from the Tek 2465BCT is below.

Just for fun, here's a screenshot from a LeCroy WavePro 7300A:






Here's also a screenshot from a Siglent SDS2204 when it doesn't suffer from any annoying bugs:



Source: R&S CRTU-RU
Signal: 100MHz -10dBm AM modulated @ 1kHz 50%

[Wuerstchenhund]

Now imagine that you are looking at the output waveform of an audio power amplifier which has a mild oscillation about 20MHz frequency (say 200mV p-p) occurring near clipping on 1kHz 60V p-p sine wave . You don't know it is there. What chances are to see it with a DSO?

With FFT, I'd say pretty much 100%.

[Alex Nikitin]

Now imagine that you are looking at the output waveform of an audio power amplifier which has a mild oscillation about 20MHz frequency (say 200mV p-p) occurring near clipping on 1kHz 60V p-p sine wave . You don't know it is there. What chances are to see it with a DSO?

With FFT, I'd say pretty much 100%.

You should try that  one time   - just imagine the required FFT parameters (and again, you should at least suspect what you are looking for).

Cheers

Alex

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

Who made the DSO3062A?It doesn't look very Agilent, is it an older rebadged Rigol?

Yep, just a rebaged early Rigol
Agilent helped Rigol set up and perfect their production and other stuff, and they now regret that deeply.

Yes, and I knew that when I was buying it seven years ago. Still, not in a hurry to upgrade as it does what I need it for, for the rest of my work the analogue Tek is better anyway.

Cheers

Alex

Anolog scopes is best at looking at mostly analog signals. Modulated signals also show up better on an analog scope. That why I had two 2465's and sold one to get a 2467B now. As do the same work you do. That being said I still won't recommend a newbie in getting into electronics a analog scope, unless they told me they are working on older radio gear, or tape decks, reel to reel's, or older audio/video gear.  Plus the fact the new DSOs are much better and have come a long ways, then the older DSO's and have improved quite a bit over the years, it depends if you can justify their sky-high prices.

[G0HZU]

Modulated signals also show up better on an analog scope.

That's my experience. However, I suppose you could argue that the difference is of limited benefit.

To me the images of the Lecroy scope showing a modulated carrier look pretty grim compared to the elegant image you see on a decent analogue scope. But I could live with the Lecroy if it was the only scope available. However, I'd expect to have to spend a fair bit of time setting it up to get something reasonable on the screen. By comparison, the analogue scope is much easier to set up for a measurement like this.

But the DSO can always swap across to the frequency domain and there is a lot of useful info to be gained doing this. I tend to use both analogue and digital scopes and swap between them as required

[G0HZU]

Anybody with a digital camera can capture a single-shot trace from an analog scope.

Been there and done that many times. I've even done it with an old school scope camera.

Struggling to use a digital camera with my 465 was the reason I dug deep and bought the little TDS2012 about 10-12 years ago

[Wuerstchenhund]

occurring near clipping on 1kHz 60V p-p sine wave . You don't know it is there. What chances are to see it with a DSO?

With FFT, I'd say pretty much 100%.
[/quote]

You should try that  one time   - just imagine the required FFT parameters (and again, you should at least suspect what you are looking for).[/quote]

I don't know but part of building stuff is to look for stuff that might be there could be missed. Just looking on a test instrument and assuming that's all there is is making things a bit too easy.

Just my 2 British Pence

[vk6zgo]

Well, just as a teaser - could somebody post a screen shot from the Rigol DS1054Z (or a similar DSO scope) of a 100Mhz signal with 50% AM modulation at 1kHz. A screen from the Tek 2465BCT is below.

Just for fun, here's a screenshot from a LeCroy WavePro 7300A:






Here's also a screenshot from a Siglent SDS2204 when it doesn't suffer from any annoying bugs:



Source: R&S CRTU-RU
Signal: 100MHz -10dBm AM modulated @ 1kHz 50%

Just as well you said "just for fun",as that display is about the most useless one you could show of an amplitude modulated RF waveform.
I am quite sure your LeCroy could show the classic style modulated RF envelope correctly,"standing on its head"!

[Wuerstchenhund]

To me the images of the Lecroy scope showing a modulated carrier look pretty grim compared to the elegant image you see on a decent analogue scope.

True, but then this is no analog scope but then this is a 7yr old 3Ghz scope based on a design that came out in 2001 and for that I think it's pretty reasonable in that mode (which isn't necessarily what I'd use in practice). But yes, if you want to look at modulated signals the way you do that on an analog scope then it's the wrong scope. But it's also not a scope that is really on-topic, and as stated I posted the screen shots for fun only anyways (and because I was shocked how terrible the "graded" MDO3000 screenshot looks).

Also, I guess my other scope (WaveRunner 64Xi, unfortunately out of order at the moment) would have been a better choice for that scenario, as it has a mode called WaveStream which much better reflects the behavior of an analog scope:



(the video shows a WaveRunner Xi)

But I could live with the Lecroy if it was the only scope available. However, I'd expect to have to spend a fair bit of time setting it up to get something reasonable on the screen.

Not necessarily, intensity grading is just one form to capture this information. Color grading might actually be a better option:



The color grading shows much better that it's modulated with a sine wave.

Or you could look at a 3D image:







The Wireframe isn't much use but the pits and grooves show clearly that this is an AM modulated waveform and that the modulation signal is sine-like.

[Howardlong]

Well, just as a teaser - could somebody post a screen shot from the Rigol DS1054Z (or a similar DSO scope) of a 100Mhz signal with 50% AM modulation at 1kHz. A screen from the Tek 2465BCT is below.

Just for fun, here's a screenshot from a LeCroy WavePro 7300A:






Here's also a screenshot from a Siglent SDS2204 when it doesn't suffer from any annoying bugs:



Source: R&S CRTU-RU
Signal: 100MHz -10dBm AM modulated @ 1kHz 50%

As a matter of interest do those look like at 1ms/div? I thought that's one of the points of the test, showing how well, or badly, the intensity gradient and deep memory work at around the modulation frequency given a carrier frequency within a decade or so of the sampling rate.

[vk6zgo]

Well, just as a teaser - could somebody post a screen shot from the Rigol DS1054Z (or a similar DSO scope) of a 100Mhz signal with 50% AM modulation at 1kHz. A screen from the Tek 2465BCT is below.

Source: HP 8656B, 50% 1kHz AM modulating 100MHz -10dBm carrier.

Rigol DS1054Z suffers beating and intensity gradient doesn't work at all well (24Mpts, 1GSa/s).


Tek MDO3054 has similar difficulties with intensity grtading (10Mpts, 1.25GSa/s).


Aglient/Keysight MSO7104B looks better, but by no means perfect. Looks better if the timebase time is reduced and therefore sampling rate increased (8Mpts, 400MSa/s).


So in short I think you're going to struggle to get an analogue style display on most DSOs with this particular test. Whether the test is a reasonable and regularly experienced scenario, I'll leave for others. Certainly it's not one I encounter in practice, although I'm aware it's a common test albeit usually with a much more relaxed carrier:modulation ratio. I'd be using a frequency domain instrument first and foremost for this myself!

In fairness to the DSOs,it would be very uncommon to display that many cycles of the modulation envelope for critical measurements.
Probably two to three cycles would be adequate,allowing the time/div to be reduced,with a resulting increase in sampling rate.

Interestingly,% modulation checks of AM signals using an analog 'scope are usually done in X-Y mode,with the modulating signal being applied to the
 X amp & the RF envelope to the Y amp.
This gives a "trapezoid" pattern with which it is easier to determine the modulation percentage.
This is how we used to calibrate AM Modulation Monitors.

With a DSO,it should be easier to determine the required levels from an envelope pattern,plus there would be less possibility of error due to vertical amp non-linearity.

[vk6zgo]

As a matter of interest do those look like at 1ms/div? I thought that's one of the points of the test, showing how well, or badly, the intensity gradient and deep memory work at around the modulation frequency given a carrier frequency within a decade or so of the sampling rate.

Of course that's the point of the test,
As long as people have been able to look at amplitude modulated RF signals on Oscilloscopes,they have displayed them with the 'scope displaying one or more cycles at the modulating frequency.

Nobody looks at it at carrier rate,as it is a fairly meaningless waveform.
You can see it is modulated,but it doesn't give any indication of the modulating frequency,or modulation percentage.

Wuerstchenhund knows this perfectly well-------he's just "pulling your leg"!

[Howardlong]

As a matter of interest do those look like at 1ms/div? I thought that's one of the points of the test, showing how well, or badly, the intensity gradient and deep memory work at around the modulation frequency given a carrier frequency within a decade or so of the sampling rate.

Of course that's the point of the test,

Wuerstchenhund knows this perfectly well-------he's just "pulling your leg"!

Let's hope so! I guess I missed that...

[Rupunzell]

Here is another.. Previously posted here and re-post as easier to do example.

Symmetrical display over drive to reveal specific details. How much symmetrical display over drive can a modern DSO-MSO accept? Using DC offset is not possible due to waveform symmetry and what the important information is near zero.

Precise waveform numeric values are of less value as much of this analog stuff works over a broad range and absolute precise numeric metric is not always what matters most, how the circuit behaves under specific conditions matters a LOT more as it is more telling of actual circuit behavior.

Under these conditions, a tube O'scope like the Tek 500 series does really well due to the high internal voltages that allow LOTs of amplifier dynamic range. Tek 7000 is not as good, Tek portables are ok for this.



The Tek P6042 has enough dynamic range to allow significant over drive without distortion. With the power line variac set to the where the voltage regulator is just going in and out of regulation, the regulator behavior at transition between in and out of regulation can be observed in real time with no updating time gaps.


Bernice

[Wuerstchenhund]

As a matter of interest do those look like at 1ms/div? I thought that's one of the points of the test, showing how well, or badly, the intensity gradient and deep memory work at around the modulation frequency given a carrier frequency within a decade or so of the sampling rate.

You're right of course, but as I said, the shots were merely just for fun (and frankly I didn't really pay much attention to the details when I should have), and also because I some of the other DSO's intensity grading looked astonishingly poor. Plus I was fiddling with the SDS2000 and Siglent's "new" firmware, and glad I could get the scope to display a waveform without a strange shift downwards (another bug).

If I don't forget then I'll see if I can take some proper shots tomorrow. Overall I doubt the WavePro will perform very well in that test, though.

[G0HZU]

Just as well you said "just for fun",as that display is about the most useless one you could show of an amplitude modulated RF waveform.
I am quite sure your LeCroy could show the classic style modulated RF envelope correctly,"standing on its head"!

The second set of plots from Wuerstchenhund look even more bizarre.

I suspect that many people on here don't have a classic comms background so maybe it's the first time they tried to look at an AM test waveform on a scope.

Taking it a step further, an analogue scope really shines when looking at the AMC setting/performance on something like an AM ham/CB radio when using human speech into the microphone. I've not tried this with many DSOs but the one's I have tried it on have been very poor compared to an analogue scope. But I guess a modern DSO (or even a downmixer+PC soundcard) could be used to capture the signal and play it back in slow motion on a PC.  The analogue scope can't do this...

[alsetalokin4017]

Just for fun?  Well, one _could_ use scope settings that give the scope a chance to perform, I suppose. But that might be cheating.....   

Source: HP8640B
Scope: DS1054z "unlocked" to 100MHz bw