Siglent SDS2104X Plus, major last minute concern

[casterle]

Having assured myself that I can adapt to (or even learn to love) the 'Siglent/PicoScope' sample buffering strategy, I was ready to pull the trigger, but...I just read that the scope can't search decoded data? Is this true? Searching for 'search' in the manual isn't reassuring.

This seems a glaring omission. It never occurred to me Siglent would go to the effort to support these wonderful triggers and decodes, yet provide no way to examine the decoded data!

If the search hasn't been expanded to include this very necessary (for me) feature by now, must I assume it never will be? I guess I must.

I certainly don't want to export files to my PC just to search my data! Are there work-arounds - perhaps I can stream to something like sigrok/PulseView? While not a perfect solution, I guess I could live with that.

[Martin72]

Hi,

I suggest to post it better there:

Siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests

[casterle]

Thanks, I hadn't found that thread.

[Martin72]

Just follow my signature...

[james_s]

IMHO trying to decode data on a scope is a bit silly in the first place. A scope is for inspecting the analog characteristics of a waveform, if you want to decode protocols a logic analyzer or MSO is the appropriate instrument. Those little USB logic analyzers are so cheap now that it has never bothered me that my scope can't do serial decoding.

[Martin72]

Maybe, but that´s not the point here.
More and more scope got this functionality and he want a search function.
It´s not the question of how usable decoding functions on a scope are in general.

[2N3055]

IMHO trying to decode data on a scope is a bit silly in the first place. A scope is for inspecting the analog characteristics of a waveform, if you want to decode protocols a logic analyzer or MSO is the appropriate instrument. Those little USB logic analyzers are so cheap now that it has never bothered me that my scope can't do serial decoding.

That is great that it works for you that way.
Other people do it differently. That is fine too..

I will tell you why (and when) I do it on the scope: sometimes it's complicated switching back and  forth the  wiring not to upset something. Sometimes you have to always check analog signal and decode at the same time (for instance with CAN, looking for rogue node, or when crosstalk in analog domain is signal dependent).
And also scopes have excellent triggers on protocols. So you can look at only some data, or something else analog at the time of message. Time correlation is key here. Scope decodes/triggers are used for mixed signal correlations, not for debugging software stacks per se.. But new larger screen scopes with very long memory can decode a lot... So you would use USB logic analyzer for really long sequences when working on software, but scope might catch errors with proper triggers and be used to look for rare errors..
I still use both, but lately use USB logic analyzer less than before. Between Keysight and long memory scope with 500 MSPS I can decode a lot. But I agree that it helps that Pico is PC based, 24" monitors are easier to use than scope displays..

[kahuna0k]

Some times you want to check a related analog shape of a related signal (either analog or digital) but not at the point of the trigger but at some data after it. Being able to search on the digital data is a poor-man advanced trigger functionality (triggering on things like the 13th 0x03 after whatever data would be better but probably search is cheaper and easier). That reason is why I still have my MSO5074 with the logic probes, I think that for digital is much better than the Siglent (that I have just also got), although the responsiveness, the UI and noise are much much better in the Siglent.

[2N3055]

Maybe, but that´s not the point here.
More and more scope got this functionality and he want a search function.
It´s not the question of how usable decoding functions on a scope are in general.

I'm afraid I'm the one that raised the awareness of this lack of search.
I think it is important to have search when you can have 50000 segments.

I have Keysight that has ONLY 1000 segments. And I assure you, without good search, even that is very limited usefulness.

Even fancy R&S 2000/3000/4000 series has no search on basic protocols (it has some search on CAN, but nothing else, go figure). At least Siglent did confirm they are looking into it and have plans to add it eventually (it might happen sooner if more people ask for it), while R&S simply stated they have no plans of adding it to those series..

[Electro Fan]

This is a topic (mixed signal correlations with decoding, search, navigation, etc.) that has been around for years and while the scope manufacturers have made progress unless someone has the opportunity to compare scopes side by side it's somewhat difficult to know and fully appreciate from reading the manuals and watching the various videos out there what functionality is truly usefully available and what the tradeoffs might be in the various designs/approaches. 

Dave has done some videos in the past on this and related subjects.  It would be great to see an update, maybe with a Rigol 5k and Siglent 2k Plus, and maybe also with a 3-4k series Keysight to see what the differences are when you throw still more $ at it.  While it would be interesting to see what can be done with 8 and 16 digital channels on MSOs it would probably be even more interesting to see what can be done with serial protocols on 4 channel scopes - although kahuna0k makes a case for the digital channels that should probably be considered. 

In an all-out double-video review the winner or winners among the scopes might then be compared to whatever the leading contenders might be among USB logic analyzers.   But I think the sweet spot for user interest would be investigating how much practical decoding, search, and navigation can be done with scopes like the Siglent 2k Plus and the Rigol 5k vs one step up from Keysight et al.

[casterle]

if you want to decode protocols a logic analyzer or MSO is the appropriate instrument.

I'm not sure what the difference is between the SDS2104X Plus with the LA pod and something with MSO in its name. Siglent appears to believe it's an MSO as the LA option is called the "MSO option" in the manual.

And yes, I want to decode protocols. Moreover,  I want to decode and analyze them as well as I could with something like a Saleae Logic Pro 16. Why shouldn't I be able to do at least some of that, like searching for data of interest, on that big touchscreen?

When I started looking for new tools I needed two: a better 'scope and a LA far better than the $7 Chinese job I've been playing with. I thought I'd found the perfect solution with the SDS2KX+ Series and I'm disappointed to find I may not have after all.

[casterle]

I'm afraid I'm the one that raised the awareness of this lack of search.

Thank you. This is something I needed to be aware of before I was disappointed down the road.

At least Siglent did confirm they are looking into it and have plans to add it eventually

That's an important tidbit...if I can believe they'll follow through. What do you think?

Would it be in character for Siglent to extend search to decodes (and do a good job of it), or is it more likely they'll blow this feature off?

[Elasia]

I think its something that will eventually come to fruition as its a good feature but like most already said.. its hard to find in other scopes less you are ready to shell out a ton more cash..   I'm just tickled it has CAN FD where as everyone else in this class or lower is still on just CAN

I record the data and pipe it out to my computer if i need specific timebase correlations.. its just easier to do this way still even in this day and age

That said I do pipe the steams into specific protocol analyzers that also have high timebase resolution then its usually just a matter of alignment.. they are the fastest way to filter / search a protocol bus, in the can world i usually use kvasers

[uski]

IMHO trying to decode data on a scope is a bit silly in the first place. A scope is for inspecting the analog characteristics of a waveform, if you want to decode protocols a logic analyzer or MSO is the appropriate instrument. Those little USB logic analyzers are so cheap now that it has never bothered me that my scope can't do serial decoding.

Which USB logic analyzers are you thinking of ?
The cheapest logic analyzer I can think of that can match the 500MSa/s rate of the SDS2104X Plus is the Saleae Logic Pro 8 at $699. It is half the price of the scope.

Granted the SDS2104X Plus needs an additional software license and a probe and the combined cost is $538, but some people prefer to have everything in one instrument and not to have to use a computer.

So it makes total sense to be frustrated at a missing feature that could be easily implemented (i.e. search)

I agree however that for low frequency work, or someone on a budget, it is possible to use a clone of the original Saleae logic up to 24MHz. But that's not 100% ethical. And then, people willing to do that might also crack the license of the MSO option for the scope, which brings the cost down to the probe only ($369) so that starts to be a meaningful difference for some people ($699 down to $369 for 500GSa/s digital capability)

Oh and I didn't get into the number of channels. A Logic Pro 16 is $999. Same number of channels than the $538 with the scope.

Do you have any other USB logic analyzer brand in mind that can achieve these specs and at a lower price ? Maybe I am missing one, not sure

[tautech]

FYI
SDS2000X Plus and SDS5000X models share an almost identical UI and bug fixes and feature requests when implemented trickle down to each series in subsequent firmware.

So while discussion of Search capability within decoded strings is not obvious to find this matter has been discussed some 18 months ago WRT SDS5000X requested capability.
At that time a senior Siglent beta tester had this to say in a reply to 2N3055:
Snipped from full reply:

Keysight shows only progress bar while analysing segments, and it takes few seconds despite two orders of magnitude smaller memory.
I don't think 8 seconds for going through 400Ms of memory is that slow.  Faster is always better, but it is already faster than Keysight 3000T for that, comparatively.
I would put priority to complete search trough segments for protocol decodes. That is a killer feature.

Thanks for clearing this up. Even though I do have access to both Keysight MSOX3000A and 3000T at work, I rarely have the time to play with them. For my job, a Picoscope MSO is much better suited, so this is what I have on my desk all the time.

I also don’t think that having to wait for 8 seconds (worst case, if no hit is found) is too much asked, but then I have an open (low priority!) request to expand the number of history frames even more, so this topic might gain relevance some day.

With regard to the search for serial trigger conditions, it’s on the list, but not with high priority right now. Since you’re strongly advocating that feature, I’ll do my best to push it a little

[2N3055]

I think its something that will eventually come to fruition as its a good feature but like most already said.. its hard to find in other scopes less you are ready to shell out a ton more cash..   I'm just tickled it has CAN FD where as everyone else in this class or lower is still on just CAN

I record the data and pipe it out to my computer if i need specific timebase correlations.. its just easier to do this way still even in this day and age

That said I do pipe the steams into specific protocol analyzers that also have high timebase resolution then its usually just a matter of alignment.. they are the fastest way to filter / search a protocol bus, in the can world i usually use kvasers

GW Instek 2000E series has capability to search on anything it has trigger for, including all protocols it has..  While not cheapest one, it's not Keysight money.
So it can be done...

And that is what I wanted to say: If you're working on car system, you will need to deal with 10s of thousands different messages, and quite complicated interconnected systems. Those jobs will need long term debug of software, so someting like Kvaser is the tool to use. In a pinch you could use Picoscope..
7" screen is not the tool fo that.
But most work on microcontrollers don't need that, so good scope with 10" screen can go a long way.

[Elasia]

Instek has one? Interesting.. have to give them a gander when they refresh the line

[2N3055]

Instek has one? Interesting.. have to give them a gander when they refresh the line

If they had 350-500 MHz 2GS/s 4 ch version of 2000E series that would be killer, maybe a bit bigger screen too.. It doesn't even have to touch screen, just give me support for external keyboard (and/or mouse).. Most of the touch screen advantage is simply keyboard. Moving waveforms on screen is actually pain in the ass.. That is my problem with Micsig, on STO1000 (with buttons) I would like if there was option to disable screen gestures for waveform movements, because it is too easy to move something by mistake, trying to do something else...

[mawyatt]

Instek has one? Interesting.. have to give them a gander when they refresh the line

 Most of the touch screen advantage is simply keyboard. Moving waveforms on screen is actually pain in the ass.. That is my problem with Micsig, on STO1000 (with buttons) I would like if there was option to disable screen gestures for waveform movements, because it is too easy to move something by mistake, trying to do something else...

I had not used a touch screen much other than with the iphone before getting a DSO. Agree the screen gestures are really lacking, however sliding a table into an open screen area isn't too bad, and using a touch to activate or deactivate a function works OK. Having physical buttons, a touch screen & the ability to use a mouse is very nice and find covers most of what is needed. Someday maybe we'll have iPad functionality and performance in our DSOs

Best, 

[Fungus]

Someday maybe we'll have iPad functionality and performance in our DSOs

Some of us already do.

[mawyatt]

Someday maybe we'll have iPad functionality and performance in our DSOs

Some of us already do.

That's certainly a snappy DSO interface, one of the better UI demos I've seen.

Now try and create a full blown document from the UI and see how it compares to a later model iPad, that's what I mean about iPad functionality and performance.

Best,

[Fungus]

Now try and create a full blown document from the UI

I'm not sure what that means but obviosuly it's not going to be as powerful as a "high-end" iPad - it costs less.

Getting back on topic, here's the serial decoding:



When you're in the hex/ascii "serials.txt" view you can press the quick "quick save" button and it saves the data to a csv file. You could open that in the built-in spreadsheet app and search there if you want. 

(but I'm not sure you'd want to, really)