Professional Scope Purchasing Criteria

[rx8pilot]

I have been upgrading my bench as my skills grow. Moving from low-end, hobby type gear to instruments intended for professional level work. First major change was getting a really solid power-supply that supports GPIB allowing me to script automate tests etc. Awesome.  I have chosen a 6.5 digit DMM, programmable electronic load, thermal wire strippers, pick and place machine, and a number of other pieces that will help me focus on design instead of wrestling the limitations of my tools.

Next major decision is a scope. The current scope is a starter model from Rigol DS1102E. I would never complain about this little guy considering the super low price point. It is, however, very basic. Time for more channels, performance, features, etc.

It looks like I should be budgeting $3k - $5k to get a mixed signal 4ch scope - although that is only a guess at this point.
I would really like to have at least the following:
Upgradable speed - starting with 100Mhz is fine as long as I can upgrade to 500Mhz for a cost later.
4 analog channels.
Logic analyzer built-in with protocol analysis. Triggering on a defined packet would be great.
external monitor connection would be nice for better visibility.
Some decent way of interfacing with a PC to capture and save waveform data and screen grabs. Rigol sucks in this category.

When I purchased my Rigol scope at ~$400 USD, my expectations were low. If it turned out to be totally useless, $400 is not a total financial disaster. In the higher-end, I am hoping to get it right the first time. Day-to-day use-ability is just as important as the electrical specs in my opinion. The hardest thing to get from the data sheets is what my daily experience will be like. Hopefully, some of the forum members have some experiences to offer on various brands and/or product lines that may help.

Electronics has become a critical component in my business (I still do mechanical engineering as well). For this reason, I am willing to pay for the tools that minimize design time and provide room to grow. Rigol was a great way to get my feet wet, but it seems that their DNA is in making products to b as low-cost as possible. I would prefer to have a brand with a focus on making the product as good as possible.

Thank you all.....

[tautech]

Could you state where you are or better sill put your country flag in your profile.

Will you be considering used?
CRO or DSO ?

[rx8pilot]

Could you state where you are or better sill put your country flag in your profile.

Will you be considering used?
CRO or DSO ?

I am in the USA, California. (updated my profile as well)

I will not immediately discount getting a used scope, although the newest models seem to offer a lot more than models even a few years old. I purchased a used power supply after being adamant that only new would work. I quickly found, with the help of this forum, that used power supplies can be a fantastic choice. It seems less likely in the scope category that is rapidly changing relative to power supplies.

What is a CRO?

[tautech]

What is a CRO?

Cathode Ray Oscilloscope..... uses a CRT 

Many up to 20 yrs old LCD scopes from the likes of Lecroy, Tek, Agilent etc should meet your requirements, however their bench footprint is usually large along with power requirements.
Some have a Windows based UI and also are fitted with a HD that are now getting dated.
Boot time also need to be considered and might be frustrating for your use.

A modern DSO might be the way to go.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Many up to 20 yrs old LCD scopes from the likes of Lecroy, Tek, Agilent etc should meet your requirements, however their bench footprint is usually large along with power requirements.

Aside from that 20 years ago the only LCD scopes were those with very low resolution black & white displays, not all older scopes are huge and power hogs. And newer scopes aren't necessarily much smaller or use less power.

Some have a Windows based UI and also are fitted with a HD that are now getting dated.
Boot time also need to be considered and might be frustrating for your use.

Hard drives are easy to replace on most scopes and cheap like chips these days. Boot time is probably more an issue for a hobbyist who uses his scopes for a few minutes only and not for a professional.

And it's not that the boot times of new scopes is necessarily much shorter anyways.

[rx8pilot]

CRT? nope. I have had a few over the years and the modern DSO is definitely where I need to be.

I have taken a website look at Agilent [keysight] and Tektronix. Both look pretty great, especially when looking at the modular design. They also offer some interesting ways of analyzing the signals, but it is hard for me to tell the difference between marketing flash features and features that may give me a real edge in tracking down issues or measuring performance. The marketing from both is super slick and polished and I see 'ideal' scenarios to demonstrate various features.

While I don't know for sure, it does seem that the size of the scopes with similar features has shrunk. I don't really care about boot time as it would boot up in the morning while I am still working on a cup of coffee and stay on all day. Small physical size is a real feature for me, but I could probably deal with an older/bigger unit.

it also seems that integrated mixed signal and/or mixed domain scopes are relatively new. Can't go back too far before you see those as multiple instruments. Being able to trigger on i2c data and see what analog event is happening is pretty great.

I have used the basic Tektronix 200Mhz 4ch DSO's and it was really easy to use. The LCD was low-res, but it was easy to use. The newer versions with bigger hi-res displays seems really appealing. One of the things that scares me is that I will find that once I get it on my bench, I find that a frequently used feature is buried 3 levels deep in a menu. The marketing people will always avoid those situations in a demo so I would rely on a real engineer to point those details out.

[tautech]

Many up to 20 yrs old LCD scopes from the likes of Lecroy, Tek, Agilent etc should meet your requirements, however their bench footprint is usually large along with power requirements.

Aside from that 20 years ago the only LCD scopes were those with very low resolution black & white displays, not all older scopes are huge and power hogs. And newer scopes aren't necessarily much smaller or use less power.

Some have a Windows based UI and also are fitted with a HD that are now getting dated.
Boot time also need to be considered and might be frustrating for your use.

Hard drives are easy to replace on most scopes and cheap like chips these days. Boot time is probably more an issue for a hobbyist who uses his scopes for a few minutes only and not for a professional.

And it's not that the boot times of new scopes is necessarily much shorter anyways.

 
I said up to 20 yrs..... that covers a shit load of models, B&W and color LCD.
Any modern scope that doesn't use less than 100W is a power hog.
Who needs an extra thig like a HD to worry about.....any body know of a scope that is fitted with a SSD as standard? That might be more acceptable, power usage, reliability and boot times.

With a modest 3-5 K budget you will still have plenty of choice of good SH models.
Only a few manufacturers offer BW upgrades, so that might limit your choices.

[AndyC_772]

You've pretty much described the Agilent 3000X series with the LAN/VGA card.

I use mine on a daily basis, and it's become a tool that I use without thinking. That's high praise.

[nanofrog]

I have two words for you; Trial Program.   

Seriously, it appears the MSOX3014A is right at the limit of your budget (MSRP of $5,209; 500MHz version is $12,016) and low-end of the specs you listed, but you'd be a fool to just buy one with the expectation it's the perfect scope for your needs.

Another alternative might be a DSO + separate Logic Analyzer. A Salae LogicPro16 might be sufficient for your embedded work for now, and would be cheaper than an MSO (8GB version is $499; does require a computer). DSOX3024A + LogicPro16 = $4740 MSRP for example. Not only cheaper, but you get an additional 100MHz of bandwidth. Something to consider at any rate IMHO. 

[rx8pilot]

I have two words for you; Trial Program.   

Seriously, it appears the MSOX3014A is right at the limit of your budget (MSRP of $5,209; 500MHz version is $12,016) and low-end of the specs you listed, but you'd be a fool to just buy one with the expectation it's the perfect scope for your needs.

Another alternative might be a DSO + separate Logic Analyzer. A Salae LogicPro16 might be sufficient for your embedded work for now, and would be cheaper than an MSO (8GB version is $499; does require a computer). DSOX3024A + LogicPro16 = $4740 MSRP for example. Not only cheaper, but you get an additional 100MHz of bandwidth. Something to consider at any rate IMHO. 

That is good advise. I have seen some rental options as well that can really help get to the right permanent choice. I have a Salae analyzer and love it - for the price. There is no way to trigger on a specific packet so I have to jump through hoops to find what I am looking for. The analog inputs are cool, but obviously not an oscilloscope. My price range is merely a guess - I would be willing to spend more to get the right box on my bench. I learned a long time ago that going cheap on tools is generally a poor way to save money. I may save a few $k on the initial purchase and then work slowly around the limitations of the tool for years to come - missing opportunities along the way. Right now, I am trying to form the real budget. Obviously, I don't want to over-spend either.

You've pretty much described the Agilent 3000X series with the LAN/VGA card.
I use mine on a daily basis, and it's become a tool that I use without thinking. That's high praise.

That is good info. Real world.
If I start with 100Mhz, can I upgrade all the way to 500Mhz or 1Ghz? That process or price was not clear on the website.

[Someone]

You've pretty much described the Agilent 3000X series with the LAN/VGA card.
I use mine on a daily basis, and it's become a tool that I use without thinking. That's high praise.

That is good info. Real world.
If I start with 100Mhz, can I upgrade all the way to 500Mhz or 1Ghz? That process or price was not clear on the website.

The upgrade prices are a little hard to find, but you pay close to or slightly more than the current price difference between the models. Its an option but you return it to the service location and they replace the acquisition board when you step up to the 350/500MHz or 1GHz bandwidths.

The prices for the Agilent Keysight 3000 series haven't dropped since launch which is a sign of their desirability, and they are usually running some sort of deal for discount option packages. If you are certain on the options you will need you will be able to get options for much cheaper if you negotiate buying them up front with the scope, but it does raise the price of purchase.

In this price range you should be able to get your local office to lend you a unit for a few days, offer to pick it up and drop it off from their location if you are located close to them. This applies to all the major brands, Keysight, Tektronix, Lecroy, Yokogawa, Rigol, etc.

I have an Agilent 3000 that is my daily scope, couldn't be happier with it. I've used scopes of all levels from all the major brands and am happy working with specific scopes from Tektronix, Agilent, and Lecroy models, all those manufacturers have made some bad scopes but they have some great ones in the mix though few of them would meet your desire for a built in logic function.

[nanofrog]

I have a Salae analyzer and love it - for the price. There is no way to trigger on a specific packet so I have to jump through hoops to find what I am looking for.

Give the MSOX3xxxA series a try, and see if this will. 

Past that, you'd be looking at a separate DSO + LA IMHO (better from a technical POV IMHO <see more of what's going on + easier to use w/ second control panel & less cluttered UI of an AIO device>, but also more money for full fledged units).

My price range is merely a guess - I would be willing to spend more to get the right box on my bench. I learned a long time ago that going cheap on tools is generally a poor way to save money. I may save a few $k on the initial purchase and then work slowly around the limitations of the tool for years to come - missing opportunities along the way. Right now, I am trying to form the real budget. Obviously, I don't want to over-spend either.

I would agree. Hard to figure out though, and the trial programs are a genuine necessity IMHO (technically, you buy it first, with a long-ish return policy, say 30 days, possibly more).

If I start with 100Mhz, can I upgrade all the way to 500Mhz or 1Ghz? That process or price was not clear on the website.

IIRC, it's a firmware upgrade/s to 350MHz, and hardware change past that for 500MHz and again at 1GHz (not sure if they send you a new unit & you send yours in after <eliminate loss of instrument>, or what). But from a technical POV, they've made it possible to go from the bottom 100MHz BW models to the max of 1 GHz.

[Wuerstchenhund]

I said up to 20 yrs..... that covers a shit load of models, B&W and color LCD.

Just to remind you what you wrote:

Many up to 20 yrs old LCD scopes from the likes of Lecroy, Tek, Agilent etc should meet your requirements

Which is nonsense, really, not only because usable LCD screens have been in scopes for a lot less years, but also because it's silly to buy kit that old for professional use, as such old gear is usually closer to the end of its functional life (and often already way beyond its useful life). Anything that is out of support is generally a very bad idea for professional use, which means depending on the support policy of the manufacturer that the scope should not be older than say 5 to 8 years.

Any modern scope that doesn't use less than 100W is a power hog.

100W may seem a lot for you, but it really isn't. Of course if you only look at low end stuff like Rigol or Siglent scopes then 100W sounds like a lot, but even if you look at mid-range scopes with fast processing and sample rates 10x as much as your low end lunch boxes then often the acquisition system alone can easily consume 100W or more. A modern high-end scope can easily exceed 600W.

Is it a lot of power? Yes. Does it make it a power hog? Not really.

Who needs an extra thig like a HD to worry about.....

Most of the better scopes run Windows (not just some cut down Embedded variant like Win CE), so some mass storage is needed. A new hard drive is roughly $50. If that amount causes you headache then you've got your priorities seriously wrong.

any body know of a scope that is fitted with a SSD as standard?

Some current Windows scopes now come with SSDs instead of hard drives. But many still come with hard drives.

That might be more acceptable, power usage, reliability and boot times.

Not really. SSDs have around the same power consumption as 2.5" SATA hard drives (laptop drives), some SSDs even exceed that. Reliability isn't necessarily better with SSDs, as various examples have shown, and hard disks can easily serve for mony years (especially when they're running more constantly and don't have to suffer from lots of on-off cycles). In addition, you need a OS with TRIM support to maintain an SSD's performance, which only became available with Windows 7. Older scopes however run WindowsXP (or even Windows 2000) and for those OSes the standard hard drive is still the better choice. Especially in an application like a scope where drive performance is close to irrelevant.

And as I said before, boot time may be an issue for hobbyists, but for a professional who powers the instrument up at the morning and down at night (or even leaves it running 24hrs?day) boot time is simply irrelevant. Especially when boot time also includes checking the hardware which on an advanced scope can easily take much more time than on some el-cheapo low end box.

[Wuerstchenhund]

If I start with 100Mhz, can I upgrade all the way to 500Mhz or 1Ghz? That process or price was not clear on the website.

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the bandwidth upgrade, you're paying through the nose over the years and still end up with a scope with limited capabilities. It's not worth it.

Think about how long you want to use the scope, and then about what you want it to do within that time. And then buy a scope now that fulfills these requirements.

[tautech]

Many up to 20 yrs old LCD scopes from the likes of Lecroy, Tek, Agilent etc should meet your requirements

At this point we did not know if a LCD or CRT scope was acceptable.

Wuerstchenhund All the points discussed are informative and possibly enlightening for rx8pilot as they should be in a thread like this.

Knowledge is the key, lets get on and provide it. 

[rx8pilot]

Well, I just went the the online configurator on the Tek site with an MDO3024 - 200Mhz/4ch with logic options and logic trigger software. Clearly I need to be prepared to spend $7k+ if going that route. The cost of going from 100Mhz to 200Mhz is $500, so hardly worth doing that later. It's kinda crazy how they break up the software options. $1,100 for the i2c/SPI analysis and another $1,100 if I need to do CAN and another $1,100 if I need to do 422. Starts to get serious. The good news is that I can wait until I have the need and then spend the money which is way better than spending $15k+ up front and hoping I use half the features.

It looks like Keysight has a similar configurator as well to get guideline pricing. The only difference I can see from Tek to Keysight is user interface related. They seem very similar in technical respects.

Probes could be a killer that I overlooked as well. I like the idea of having an active probe and a differential probe for what I am doing now. Although I knew they were pricey - I did not expect them to exceed the base price of the scope. Welcome to the big time i guess 

[rx8pilot]

If I start with 100Mhz, can I upgrade all the way to 500Mhz or 1Ghz? That process or price was not clear on the website.

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the bandwidth upgrade, you're paying through the nose over the years and still end up with a scope with limited capabilities. It's not worth it.

Think about how long you want to use the scope, and then about what you want it to do within that time. And then buy a scope now that fulfills these requirements.

I am on the fence with the concept of "upgradability". If I have an instrument that works well for my relatively simple needs of today, but find that I need a whole new scope to move up to some higher speed project, could be a life saver. All new 1Ghz scope with options may be [guessing] $20k, but an upgrade would be $10k.

My biggest challenge is guessing what I may be doing during the lifespan of the instrument. At the moment, I am doing 8bit embedded power controllers. I am hoping to get into some FPGA based image processing projects. Clearly, the scope needs are different with those two things. I don't know if those plans will ever happen and would not want to pay for the high-speed today. It's possible that my current product family may be all I do for the next few years.

On the other hand, upgrading a 2-3 year old scope may be less desirable than getting the latest tech available and using the older scope for another task. What a challenge to figure it all out.

[nctnico]

If I start with 100Mhz, can I upgrade all the way to 500Mhz or 1Ghz? That process or price was not clear on the website.

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the bandwidth upgrade, you're paying through the nose over the years and still end up with a scope with limited capabilities. It's not worth it.

Think about how long you want to use the scope, and then about what you want it to do within that time. And then buy a scope now that fulfills these requirements.

I agree. Better buy an oscilloscope which fits the purpose now and buy a different one when requirements change. By that time that oscilloscope will have newer bells and whistles. Maybe consider spending less and buy a mid range Rigol or Siglent. The time to buy equipment to last for 20 years is definitely over. Technology is changing too rapidly for that. A good example is serial protocol decoding. All the old scopes don't have this feature which makes them much less attractive than buying a new oscilloscope.

It may also be a good idea to buy a specialistic second hand oscilloscope (high bandwidth for example) and a new general purpose oscilloscope.

[RRobot]

You might also consider getting a used/remanufactured one from Keysight on their ebay store. If they say 'Premium' it usually comes with a three year warranty, note some don't, so look at the description.

http://stores.ebay.com/Keysight/PREMIUM-Used-/_i.html?_fsub=874614011&_sid=869664151

For example here if a 500MHz MSO for 6K, its possible they might go down to $5500:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Premium-Used-MSOX3054A-Oscilloscope-500-MHz-Agilent-MSOX3054A-/181598244400?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item2a48194e30

Its unfortunate the upgrade to the ultimate scope promotion ended today.

They have less expensive models as well.

[LabSpokane]

RX8...

Take a hard look at Agilent/Keysight's eBay store.  Their "Premium" scopes are 40% off and ship with a full warranty.  It doesn't make a 500 GHz scope "cheap" by any means, but it's an awesome deal if you can wait the 3-4 weeks for them to refurb a scope and turn it around to you. 

I just read that the upgrade deal ended.  I'm betting that it will reappear soon.  If not, see if they'll do the upgrade before shipping as part of your offer price.  Keysight is very responsive. 

[Wuerstchenhund]

Many up to 20 yrs old LCD scopes from the likes of Lecroy, Tek, Agilent etc should meet your requirements

At this point we did not know if a LCD or CRT scope was acceptable.

True, but honestly, we're in 2014, and CRT scopes have been a dead end for roughly 15 years now. Buying an old boat anchor with a CRT may be fine for a hobbyist (especially if his budget is tight) but for professional use it's simply a no-no.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Well, I just went the the online configurator on the Tek site with an MDO3024 - 200Mhz/4ch with logic options and logic trigger software. Clearly I need to be prepared to spend $7k+ if going that route. The cost of going from 100Mhz to 200Mhz is $500, so hardly worth doing that later. It's kinda crazy how they break up the software options. $1,100 for the i2c/SPI analysis and another $1,100 if I need to do CAN and another $1,100 if I need to do 422. Starts to get serious. The good news is that I can wait until I have the need and then spend the money which is way better than spending $15k+ up front and hoping I use half the features.

It looks like Keysight has a similar configurator as well to get guideline pricing. The only difference I can see from Tek to Keysight is user interface related. They seem very similar in technical respects.

Have you considered LeCroy? Their WaveSurfer 3000 might be what you want and should be within your budget:
http://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/oscilloscopeseries.aspx?mseries=466

It's a pretty new model and from what I know they're working on expanding serial decode support to include more protocols.

There's also the new WaveSurfer 10 with 1GHz bandwidth which price-wise should be in the same ballpark as a Keysight DSO/X 3-54, although it's much more powerful than the KeySight:
http://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/oscilloscopeseries.aspx?mseries=470

Another option would be a second-hand scope. There often are newer LeCroy scopes on ebay that already come with all options enabled (ex demo scopes). For example, another member (TunerSandwich) recently bought a WaveRunner 64MXi (600MHz 4Ch MSO with 10GSa/s and 1.25M wfms/sec), can't remember the price but it was well within your budget. There also was a WaveRunner 6100A (4Ch 1GHz 10GSa/s) with all options which went for around $4k. I bought a WavePro 7300A (4Ch 3GHz 20GSa/s) recently, again with all options enabled, which is a large scope but also would have fit comfortably in your budget. All these scopes are much more advanced than the KeySight DSO-X 3K Series and not only decode RS232 and CAN but also lots of other stuff like USB, Fibre Channel, Ethernet, Firewire, USB and so on.

LeCroy also fully supports all of their scopes for 7 years after a series wents out of production which is much longer than what both Tek or KeySight offer, and repairs most of them even way beyond that period (they still do repairs on 9300 Series scopes which went out of production around 1998!). If you buy a scope that is within the 7 year support period you can also buy warranty for it from LeCroy if you send it in for calibration.

If I remember right TunerSandwich was in a similar situation as you (looking for a better scope for his business) when he bought his 64MXi. Have a look at the related threads in this forum.

[EEVblog]

I am in the USA, California. (updated my profile as well)
I will not immediately discount getting a used scope, although the newest models seem to offer a lot more than models even a few years old.

Great value can be had in the US market for refurbished scopes.

[EEVblog]

If I start with 100Mhz, can I upgrade all the way to 500Mhz or 1Ghz? That process or price was not clear on the website.

With the Agilent's, no. The 300M/500M/1G models uses a different board to the 100M/200M

[EEVblog]

PM sent to rx8pilot re 3000X scope.