Price increases of test equipment

[Momchilo]

Hi all,
I am thinking about buying a new DMM but the price increases are extreme in the past 1-2 years. Of course I am aware of the inflation and the chip shortage. But the prices didn't increase by the general 10 or 20% for many devices but rather about 50-100%. In my opinion it is just ridiculous. And it is the same with used test gear. Some used stuff I bought several years ago I could sell with nice profit now.
 
For example:
2020: new Keithley DMM6500 - 849€
2023: new Keithley DMM6500 - 1642€ (at the moment 1309€)

2020: used HP 34401A - 250€
2023: used HP 34401A - 450€

Are you still buying new test equipment for your hobby today that is not needed for your daily work? I am curious and try to justify my purchase But on the other hand, I do not want to support these practices. I don't like this at all.

[jonpaul]

Check ham flea markets, local neighborhood sales, classifieds, with patients you can eventually get bargains


Was lucky found

 Keysight 34465a (HP, Agilent) for $1000, new in cal
fluke 87 V VOM $250
500v insulation tester UK Metrawatt € 5, 20!

Jon

[Specmaster]

I tend to agree with you, I really can't help but think that these mad price increases are really just big businesses using the global pandemic as a smoke screen to massively hike their prices and profits, as is to large extent, the Russia / Ukraine war.

EDIT.
I also with jonpaul, if you can afford to wait and look around, you will get something decent at a sensible price.

[eplpwr]

Yes, the price increases are huge. Also, with a currency that has taken a hit (SEK), the increases are even more pronounced. There's just not much left - after paying energy bills - to go into measuring equipment.

Prognosis: entire EE market will crash. Also, consumer electronics will skydive. Keeping warm and fed will have to take priority.

[pope]

I tend to agree with you, I really can't help but think that these mad price increases are really just big businesses using the global pandemic as a smoke screen to massively hike their prices and profits, as is to large extent, the Russia / Ukraine war.

That's the reason I stoped buying gear at the moment. If I find something reasonable second-hand I'll grab it otherwise, f*ck that... I'll wait.

[jonpaul]

I am user/collector, engineer and manufacturer.... a moment please!

1/ No manufacturer can "price gouge"

Competirion, economy supply, demand determine a market price.

Logistics, shortages, increased costs of labor, land, materials  and regulations,

Fed Exand UP raise prices every new years 5..10%

2/ the "inflation" and enormous increases are due to

a/ No stable unit of account since 1971 in US and similar in UK, EU, all the currencies are fiat.

b/ Government central banks control interest rates and must inflate and debase currencies to finance their enormous debts.

3/ Supply and demand...old great classics vintage HP/TEK/Fluke are getting scarce...the price rises.

What did you hose cost 10..30 years back vs value today?

Just my thoughts!

Jon

[tautech]

In 10 years we have seen only one new instrument increase in price when the component sourcing issues were at their peak, SDG1032X at release was $379 then for some years reduced at $329 and now $ 359.

Finding cheap P6021 and P6022 is harder than it once was but even at 20% of new price they are still cheap.

[thm_w]

849€ was great for DMM6500, surprised more people didn't buy it.

But I'll disagree on the used 34401A, one just sold here for $300: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/fs(us)-oscilloscope-multimeter-signal-generator-power-supplies-(more)/
and ebay prices anywhere from $300-400.

Used TE generally would not increase in price over time.

[james_s]

I noticed prices on used gear shot up right after the pandemic started. I expected to find bargains but instead I haven't found anything I'd consider a deal on a piece of gear since prior to 2020.

[Kean]

Simple supply and demand.  The demand for basic test equipment increased during Covid due to the number of people working from home.

If you are running a TE manufacturing company and having trouble sourcing components, then you have limited stock to sell and have to put up prices on what stock you have to pay the never ending bills.  You also start paying for unplanned redesigns, and so on.

That obviously all flows on to the second hand TE market, especially when budgets are tight everywhere… and if you need to pay exorbitant international shipping like us in Australia it hits even harder.

Asian brands were apparently less effected in the last couple of years as they seem to have more alternative (dodgy) sources, and maybe less stringent procurement practices.  They may also make use of long standing postage reciprocity agreements for very low cost “developing nation” shipping.

[james_s]

But prices are still crazy from what I've seen, I guess maybe supplies of older gear have dried up.

[Kean]

I noticed prices on used gear shot up right after the pandemic started. I expected to find bargains but instead I haven't found anything I'd consider a deal on a piece of gear since prior to 2020.

Still might be a bargain compared to buying new… like the Keithley 2306 battery simulator that just arrived via eBay at ~10% of the price of a new one.  It was listed as untested and having some issues, but after going through the calibration process (twice) it seems to be working fine.  Hopefully it stays that way through my immediate project needs.

[james_s]

Maybe, but I'd expect the 20-30 year old equipment I look for to be a bargain compared to buying new.

[tggzzz]

Maybe, but I'd expect the 20-30 year old equipment I look for to be a bargain compared to buying new.

Of course. How about a portable[1] 21GHz spectrum analyser from HP for £350 (and Tek £250), or an 8 digit DVM for £50? All working usefully.

But if my business relied on them, they wouldn't be bargains since they were out of calibration.

[1] in the sense the Osborne 1 was portable

[Hydron]

Wow, didn't realise the DMM6500 had increased that much, very happy I got mine when I did (in early 2021, an immaculate ex-demo unit for around the 2020 price). It did seem to be dramatically better value than the Keysight options at the time though (substantial discount over the 34461A, let alone the more comparable feature-wise 34465A), so I'm not surprised there was a bit of a correction, but this seems a little excessive!

I did notice that prices on used 34401As also have seemed to go up, I nearly bought one before I got the DMM6500 then when I looked again late 2022 there certainly had been an increase in prices - took a while until I got lucky with a very good condition unit for $295.

[james_s]

Maybe, but I'd expect the 20-30 year old equipment I look for to be a bargain compared to buying new.

Of course. How about a portable[1] 21GHz spectrum analyser from HP for £350 (and Tek £250), or an 8 digit DVM for £50? All working usefully.

But if my business relied on them, they wouldn't be bargains since they were out of calibration.

[1] in the sense the Osborne 1 was portable

Sounds like bargains to me, send them out for calibration, you have to do that periodically with modern gear too.

[tggzzz]

Maybe, but I'd expect the 20-30 year old equipment I look for to be a bargain compared to buying new.

Of course. How about a portable[1] 21GHz spectrum analyser from HP for £350 (and Tek £250), or an 8 digit DVM for £50? All working usefully.

But if my business relied on them, they wouldn't be bargains since they were out of calibration.

[1] in the sense the Osborne 1 was portable

Sounds like bargains to me, send them out for calibration, you have to do that periodically with modern gear too.

They were bargains, but I had to wait for them to materialise

It isn't clear where to get the DVM calibrated; it is 1980s vintage, the manufacturer no longer exists, and most cal shops seem to be set up to give "plausible deniability" pieces of paper for 4.5/4.5digit multimeters

The spectrum analysers are also old and, as far as I can tell, are in spec. I would get no benefit from having them calibrated.

They are not for business use and are more than adequate as they are for my purposes: playing around and pretending to need them And with that thought, I'll point people to https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/how-much-accuracy-do-you-really-need/msg4691354/#msg4691354

[joeqsmith]

We just picked up a couple of the latest hardware revision of the LiteVNA and the price had not changed.   

[J-R]

Saw this recently, it doesn't show up under "keithley 2001" searches: https://www.ebay.com/itm/165338086513
Seems they have 42 in stock, so some deals should be possible.
Not sure if it has any quirks compared to the regular 2001.

[zrq]

This shows up when searching Keithley 2001M. I was also considering getting one from them (didn't).
xdev have an article about 2001M, it's almost the same as ordinary 2001, with a few neglectable tiny improvements. The disappointing points of K2001 are still there, but given the price it's can be a good deal.

[salvagedcircuitry]

Keep an eye on the 34401a multimeter. They have been officially discontinued after ~32yrs of support. No more support. No more help, nothing from Keysight. All serious US labs will start pulling them from their labs as they are now too old to keep in continued service. I have seen more 34401a multimeters on ebay 2022-2023 than in the past several years combined. I can imagine there will be many at liquidation auctions and those will work their way onto ebay. Good luck.

[J-R]

The 2001M now shows up when searching for "keithley 2001", maybe they adjusted the listing...

I've heard the gripes about the 2001, mostly about being noisy compared to the 2010.  I read the xDevs article about the 2001M (https://xdevs.com/review/kei2001m/) when the ebay listing went up, but xDevs didn't seem to do any performance tests so I'm still a bit unclear currently in what ways the 2001M might better due to the hardware tweaks.  There is a short blurb about the resistor dividers being glued together to help with temperature stability.

What are the "disappointing points" of the 2001?

Will be interesting to see how the 34401A prices behave if they are being pulled from service, but on the flip side I wonder if many have been replaced already.

[jimjam]

What are the chances of prices going down - has that ever happened in the past?
What would be the cause? Maybe when this chip shortage ends?

[zrq]

If 34401As may have been replaced already, the patient ones can also watch out for 34410A .

The recent appearance of the huge batch of cheap 2001M on ebay may be just because they just got pulled out from service at a big guy.

I have little reason to believe 2001M is doing significantly better then ordinary 2001 from the teardown. I just take M as a marker for more recent production, most recent firmware and less likely for seeing a leaking cap spoiling the PCB. Given the 2001Ms are produced much later then the first 2001, I have more confidence that Keithley got more experience with this model and can engineer it to conform to the specifications drafted years ago.

To me the disappointing point is the noise. It can give one a high resolution reading (<0.1 ppm full scale) rather quickly, but more NPLC or averaging will not help to gain one more digit. Maybe for some users without GPIB adapters and need more support on the software, the computer and user interfaces are also less attractive compared to newer models. Even Keithley 2000 have a RS232.

[J-R]

Based on the xDevs article, the K2001M has many differences from the regular K2001:
- RMS-AVG - firmware feature, strongly points to the "M" being military as they love average responding DMMs
- SMD film capacitors C557,C553
- optocouplers replaced with daughterboard
- К300 relay replaced with shielded relay
- Upgraded/glued resistor divider R607
- "transistors Q550, Q552 next to guard circuit driver U331"
- new ADC module

I do wonder how many differences are solely due to the "M" design vs. just a newer version of the product.  Does anyone have info on later 2001 non-M models?

With regard to the K2001 noise, it seems it can vary between different units.  Also, the K2001 is limited to a maximum of 10 PLC, so adding a 10 reading filter for an effective 100 PLC is suggested and appears to perhaps limit the noise to the 9th digit in 8.5 digit mode.