Author Topic: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement  (Read 46658 times)

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Offline wanxiangwanTopic starter

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phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« on: April 20, 2023, 07:14:05 am »
phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement:
https://www.qsl.net/bg6khc/
 
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Offline MegaVolt

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2023, 02:00:33 pm »
1. DMTD?
2. Noise Allan deviation graph?
3. Price?
 

Offline jhenderson0107

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2023, 06:33:25 pm »
I purchased one of these for $780 to supplement existing E4440A spectrum analyzer -based phase noise measurements.  I've only used it for a short while, but it works well.  The developer is helpful and responsive via email. 

The biggest limitation I've encountered thus far is that its analog front-end is bandwidth limited to  < 1 GHz.  Even signals above 200 MHz are significantly attenuated, mitigating performance. 

The device can be used to measure frequency differences (examples provided), but I don't use that feature. 



« Last Edit: April 28, 2023, 06:37:13 pm by jhenderson0107 »
 
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Offline bozidarms

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2023, 08:42:32 am »
Does analyzer have independent input and reference frequencies?
 

Offline jhenderson0107

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2023, 12:58:03 pm »
Yes, I've attached a basic block diagram. 
 

Offline bozidarms

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2023, 02:07:48 pm »
Thanks jhenderson0107

If I understood right, exist only matlab scripts  for post-data manipulation
or raw data.
Is it possible to use a Miles TimeLab software, or any other software?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 02:22:13 pm by bozidarms »
 

Offline jhenderson0107

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2023, 02:43:26 pm »
To my knowledge, Miles' Timelab software cannot be used directly.  This is unfortunate since Timelab provides an excellent user interface and analysis display.  However, since Timelab can accept a TCP stream, it may be possible to write a utility which consumes the file data produced by the PN2060A and relay it to Timelab.  But, I need to investigate the Timelab TCP packet format to verify. 

For phase noise measurements, the PN2060A ships with a Windows x86/x64 executable which is minimalistic but fast, accurate and easy to use. 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 03:38:10 pm by jhenderson0107 »
 
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Offline jhenderson0107

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2023, 05:04:26 pm »
The PN2060A developer vendor has released server software which allows use of the instrument in conjunction with Timelab.  It works well and provides a significant functionality upgrade. 
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2023, 05:52:04 pm »
Any word on noise floor where it comes to time difference measurements (Allan deviation)? And how about Linux software?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2023, 06:11:10 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline jhenderson0107

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2023, 02:54:52 pm »
Both the vendor -supplied software and Timelab are Windows-only, to my knowledge.  The typical phase noise floor of the instrument is shown in the manual, but the time deviation floor is not.  Attached is a typical time deviation plot from my SMA100B. 

 
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Online nctnico

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2023, 04:44:38 pm »
Problem is that I don't run Windows natively. For a slow process like Timelab that isn't much of a problem but feeding a USB3 datastream into a VM looks like asking for trouble. I prefer to avoid Windows based software as Windows doesn't fit my computer usage.

Anyway, the time deviation graphs don't look that stellar compared to a standalone DMTD unit I have under development.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline cncjerry

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2023, 09:19:05 pm »
the developer referenced Andrew Holme's work.  I built Andrew's system and it works great.   I got lots of help from Andrew and Adrian Rus who went over the top to assist me. 

I needed to use batteries for the runs in addition to low noise LDO regulators.  Even with clean power supplies (and the LT3045 regulators) I still had some noise.  So I'm surprised the performance is so good on this unit with USB power. Andrew's system only uses USB for control of the FPGA and then 1Gig ethernet for the data feeding the PC plotting system. 

The expense is in the references, filters before the ADCs, the DAC oscillator and the shielding and positioning of the equipment in the lab. I had the best results using Dewalt 20v batteries stepped down with the LT regulators.  Adrian made some mods to his ADC board that worked better for him.  The other factor that came into play was the interaction of the ADC clock and the DUT as well as the reference oscillators.  Adrian developed a spreadsheet that calculated the interaction of the reference, DUT and ADC clock but the bottom line is you want the harmonics and mixing to not produce a spur within the measurement range.  I think that is an adequate explanation.   the last reference oscillators I used were at 26Mhz made by Wenzel with Minicircuits filters at 27Mhz.  Then I remember getting designs from someone for non-reflective filters.  Most of this is on Andrew's site that which I highly recommend.

Adrian then sent me some other oscillator links that I was yet to implement though I acquired them.  Given you don't need (or want) references at 10Mhz in many cases, you can move onto other odd frequencies like I did at 26Mhz.  But I think the 26Mhz interacted with my ADC clock, so I then acquired one that is phased locked to 10Mhz but generates 118Mhz and change.  You also have to setup the ADC to accept the correct clock (in Andrew's implementation) and it must be clean with low jitter.  The limit on the ADC Andrew used was 125Mhz. 

One other point, in order to get the maximum performance you need to bring the DUT and references up to the ADC limits.  I ended up spending a lot of money on QB188 amps and attenuators. I used fixed attenuators as well as variable controlled by my HP70K system.

The bottom line is that to get to a clean -185 noise floor takes a lot of screwing around.  But considering you can do it for substantially less money (under $2,000 for Andrew's) implementation assuming you get the SP605 spartan6 FPGA used, and it compares to units costing 10x that number, I thought it was a good deal.  Andrew's unit didn't do ADEV work or interface directly with Timelab the last time I updated it.  But you can dump the data into Timelab, matlab, Stable32, etc.  I use another entire system for ADEV work anyway.

I never thought I could get that level of performance for such a modest price.  You can get it going for under $750 USD and then build it up from there.

Jerry
 

Offline alan.bain

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2023, 10:12:30 pm »
Did you use the Spartan 6 eval board as in AH's write up?

I got the impression that supply chain problems (or rather fab capacity) had effectively forced Spartan 6 out of the market but possibly this was only supply affecting production of new designs rather than eval boards.

I read AH's excellent write up and found the approach very interesting, especially the cross-correlation trick with two independent input chains to improve the measurement noise floor. Part of me likes the idea of a 3048 with all those nice HP boxes, but probably the digital approach will get better results.
 

Offline cncjerry

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2023, 01:14:17 am »
Did you use the Spartan 6 eval board as in AH's write up?

I got the impression that supply chain problems (or rather fab capacity) had effectively forced Spartan 6 out of the market but possibly this was only supply affecting production of new designs rather than eval boards.

I read AH's excellent write up and found the approach very interesting, especially the cross-correlation trick with two independent input chains to improve the measurement noise floor. Part of me likes the idea of a 3048 with all those nice HP boxes, but probably the digital approach will get better results.

The 3048 has many challenges but I know people who struggled through it.  I guess the software is the biggest problem.  But I've never seen a noise floor approaching that of Andrew's on a 3048.  Maybe I've just not seen it, but it is considered an old technology that can't compete with the cross-correlation approach.  But it is cool.

Use this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/204033950500

Jerry

One other point, I purchased the kitted-out reference oscillators from a 3048 system and they barely made it to -155 at 100k, IIRC. 

I checked my plots and the A5 reference was -155 or so and the A6 was -165 with my noise floor at -185 so the analyzer was the limit.  What I don't understand is all the pictures I've seen on the web have the floor for the 3048 at around -170 if not higher yet I have a friend who built two systems, using the HP references, and he reported deeper than that, down around -180.  I would look at replacing the references as you can get Wenzel sprinter series (500's and 501's) at 10Mhz that are 10db better if not 20.  You have to check as the Wenzel 501 series are standard parts and you can get their PN specs.  the 500 series you have to test and I have some that have very good performance for less than $50USD per, not as good as their ULN series but 1/10th the price.

One last comment, it doesn't take much equipment to measure PN at one frequency as outlined in the HP memory project here:

https://www.hpmemoryproject.org/technics/bench/3048/pn_measrmt_single.htm

Granted you aren't going to get a nice plot without some GPIB automation but still, a couple amps, a low pass filter or two, a reference and Bob's your uncle.

Jerry
« Last Edit: May 13, 2023, 02:50:51 am by cncjerry »
 

Offline jhenderson0107

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2023, 04:58:05 pm »
The biggest limitation I've encountered thus far is that its analog front-end is bandwidth limited to  < 1 GHz....

Following up on my earlier comment: 

I've eliminated the above bandwidth restriction restriction by assembling two 10 MHz Wenzel Streamline oscillators, a Wenzel LNAF amplifier-low pass filter and M/ACOM M8TC mixer into a small chassis.  The oscillators provide very good low-phase noise references to the PN2060A.  The clock output of my R&S generator is used as the LO to the mixer+LNAF, which down-converts the DUT to 10 MHz without any significant phase noise performance reduction.  Consequently, the bandwidth of the system is now extended to 3.4 GHz, which meets my current needs. 

« Last Edit: May 26, 2023, 12:06:41 am by jhenderson0107 »
 
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Offline Gerhard_dk4xp

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2023, 08:19:26 am »
Did you use the Spartan 6 eval board as in AH's write up?

I got the impression that supply chain problems (or rather fab capacity) had effectively forced Spartan 6 out of the market but possibly this was only supply affecting production of new designs rather than eval boards.

I read AH's excellent write up and found the approach very interesting, especially the cross-correlation trick with two independent input chains to improve the measurement noise floor. Part of me likes the idea of a 3048 with all those nice HP boxes, but probably the digital approach will get better results.

Recently, Spartan6 has been guaranteed at least to 2030 by AMD/Xilinx.

I saw 2 engineers working with a E5052B some years ago and one of them
said with a happy face: "Do you remember how ***** it used to be with the 3048??"

Gerhard
(still working on that stereo & dual conversion down converter from Xband to Timepod.
Slow progress b/c of daytime job.)
 
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Offline wanxiangwanTopic starter

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2023, 05:40:52 am »
vendor has a new board.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2023, 12:27:07 am by wanxiangwan »
 

Offline Jackob

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2023, 07:07:08 am »
Do you have measurement results already - did the noise floor improve?

Br, Jackob
 

Offline wanxiangwanTopic starter

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2023, 09:25:20 am »
Do you have measurement results already - did the noise floor improve?

Br, Jackob

Vendor needs some time for coding, keep on watch websites.

Br, Wxw
 

Offline hpw

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2023, 09:35:41 am »
the vendor has a new board.

Yes, read on his web as Development of PN2060B: hopefully the noise floor can be lower than -185dBc (or maybe -190dBc).

More interesting would be @1Hz and @0.1Hz. Also input sensitivity as levels are IMHO not given.

Hp
 

Offline Oscill8

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2023, 07:17:41 pm »
Can someone here point me to the Andrew Holmes documentation?
Thanks!
 

Offline 3apw

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2023, 08:21:40 am »
Can someone here point me to the Andrew Holmes documentation?
Thanks!

http://www.aholme.co.uk/PhaseNoise/Main.htm
 
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Offline drew23

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2023, 07:24:00 am »
Hi all.

I am new to phase noise measurement but bought a PN2060A to try it. Awesome device.

I have made a blog post about it.

I was in contact with Yanjun today. He is currently on summer holiday. However, he did say he has some of the PN2060A for US$480, two of the PN2060B for US$780 and is working on PN2060C/D. To quote, "Currently I am focused on the development of PN2060C/D. Hopefully, It can be finished within 1-1.5 months. For PN2060C/D, one is with 2 ADC chips, and the other one is with 4 ADC chips."

Regards Drew VK4ZXI

http://vk4zxi.blogspot.com/2023/07/an-economical-way-to-measure-phase.html
 
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Offline glenenglish

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2023, 09:05:52 am »
Hi Drew
After my 3048 died. I have  built my own PNA from FPGA bits and boards I have lying around  (I do that for a living) , it worked OK , I just fed raw samples to python and that did the rest.
However , compared to my mass of bits and leads,  the PN2060 is just too easy and compact so I just bought one.

Apparently this is PCB Rev 1.1 so we'll see how it goes.

glen

« Last Edit: December 15, 2023, 09:08:16 am by glenenglish »
 

Offline alan.bain

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Re: phase noise analyzer and phase noise measurement
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2023, 10:43:00 pm »
I'd be intrested to hear what you used for the front end given the AD DC1525A-A eval board used by Andy Holme is hard to find now (the FPGA part is more straightforward to substitute).  I've got a rather non-standard 3048 setup (HP3563A as DSA not 3561) which works well, although at times the DSA is painfully slow. At times I would be interested in a direct digital comparison option!
 
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