Author Topic: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk  (Read 70302 times)

0 Members and 8 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline WuerstchenhundTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3088
  • Country: gb
  • Able to drop by occasionally only
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #225 on: May 11, 2020, 12:42:57 pm »
There is only so much real estate on the screen.  If you already have 2 analog channels plus a handful of digital ones, using the zoom window becomes a bit of a pain (uses too much space) compared to just altering the timebase "post facto".

Nico made the same argument earlier on, and I have to say the same here: if your scope is so cramped that all the information you regularly need is difficult to read then that's a UX problem with that particular scope, and if you face this situation more often then I would seriously consider changing to a better scope.

Quote
Those multi-channel captures are also the kinds of scenarios where you most often end up looking for things that happened "off screen", in my experience at least.

As I said in my response to Dave's similar argument, this to me is more a case of bad preparation than anything else. If you think a bit about what you are going to do, what you expect to achieve and what you might encounter, it should be clear right from the start that you will very likely will need to look at signal segments other than the original point of interest.

And if you make it a habit to always capture as long as sensible/possible then you are unlikely to find yourself in the situation that you need to access data which isn't instantly available and without having to stop the scope.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 12:47:10 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1729
  • Country: us
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #226 on: May 11, 2020, 12:44:49 pm »
This thread has been interesting and I have learned something useful about how my scopes work and how they differ in their approach to memory usage.  However, we now seem to be going round and round the same point and are  :horse:

You guys seem to be arguing over whose method of scope usage is "right" or "better".

How about of we all try to summarize our positions and then we can all get back to doing important stuff like playing Candy Crush?
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer
 

Offline jemangedeslolos

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 386
  • Country: fr
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #227 on: May 11, 2020, 01:05:35 pm »
This thread has been interesting and I have learned something useful about how my scopes work and how they differ in their approach to memory usage.  However, we now seem to be going round and round the same point and are  :horse:

You guys seem to be arguing over whose method of scope usage is "right" or "better".

How about of we all try to summarize our positions and then we can all get back to doing important stuff like playing Candy Crush?

You say that because you're the only one here who can't even see the data on your screen like you broke it during a pee break  ;D
 

Online rsjsouza

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6017
  • Country: us
  • Eternally curious
    • Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #228 on: May 11, 2020, 01:06:47 pm »
Once again, may I point out that the 'zoom window' display (the equivalent of a dual timebase on an analogue scope) is not needed to zoom & pan either in or out post acquisition: just use the ordinary horizontal scale & position controls!
To make sure, for 3000T and Rigol that is correct. I don't know about the others.
But I LIKE zoom mode. It gives me overview where in the buffer I am. Also on 3000T, I just use touch screen to move around... I just wish that zoom window could change size (to be little smaller if I want) when it get crowded.
But, that is mostly because screen on 3000T is not very big.
Interesting; the DS4014 has a handy top "entire buffer" view that does the same thing and uses almost zero screen realstate. (Unless you mean something else, of course)

Pretty much something like that. Maybe a bit bigger, just to get a glimpse of shapes....
Thanks. With all the discussion about the screen realstate and the impact that multiple views and waveforms have on the usability of the scope, I can't help but wonder how the manufacturers still don't seem to take advantage of multi-display feature that exists for so long in personal computers. Sure, the ability to use an external monitor is ok, but it only expands what is shown in the screen - far from having a real method of putting different views on each screen.

I was hopeful when the LeCroy guys came to do a demo of their products a few months ago and showed the nice interface, which could tile the different views and have a flexible arrangement on its large display, but only to find out not only the views couldn't be freely resized and rearranged (a feature present in any mainstream Windowed OS for the past 30 years) but also the lack of this more advanced "dual monitor" setup. Tek was the same thing, only with a much slower UI.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline WuerstchenhundTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3088
  • Country: gb
  • Able to drop by occasionally only
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #229 on: May 11, 2020, 01:24:03 pm »
Thanks. With all the discussion about the screen realstate and the impact that multiple views and waveforms have on the usability of the scope, I can't help but wonder how the manufacturers still don't seem to take advantage of multi-display feature that exists for so long in personal computers. Sure, the ability to use an external monitor is ok, but it only expands what is shown in the screen - far from having a real method of putting different views on each screen.

I sometimes wondered the same, but one reason might be that, in my experience, most of the time people use the external monitor port it's because they want to replicate the internal display, be it for showing it to a larger group (i.e. bigger screen) or recording the output signal for documentation.

We have a few setups where the 2nd monitor isn't mirrored, but that is for displaying external applications which run on the scope (like the KS VSA software).

There's also the thing that, on simpler scopes, there isn't really *that* much to display, and more capable scopes already come with larger and higher resolution screens, sufficient to show lots of different information ergonomically.

I'm not sure the demand is there to justify making the scope application multi-head capable, even on high end scopes.

Quote
I was hopeful when the LeCroy guys came to do a demo of their products a few months ago and showed the nice interface, which could tile the different views and have a flexible arrangement on its large display, but only to find out not only the views couldn't be freely resized and rearranged (a feature present in any mainstream Windowed OS for the past 30 years) but also the lack of this more advanced "dual monitor" setup. Tek was the same thing, only with a much slower UI.

Well, with an external screen you can still get more screen area by using a higher resolution display, and if the display is touch capable then you can also retain touch functionality.

« Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 01:26:16 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 
The following users thanked this post: rsjsouza

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #230 on: May 11, 2020, 01:26:12 pm »
[...]
And if you make it a habit to always capture as long as sensible/possible then you are unlikely to find yourself in the situation that you need to access data which isn't instantly available and without having to stop the scope.

I guess that the Agilent/Keysight idea is to do that automatically, even if you have the scope set at a faster timebase.  Can't really be argued that it is a harmful idea, and it is useful often enough that I noticed the behaviour and started using it.
 

Offline nfmax

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1578
  • Country: gb
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #231 on: May 11, 2020, 01:27:37 pm »
Once again, may I point out that the 'zoom window' display (the equivalent of a dual timebase on an analogue scope) is not needed to zoom & pan either in or out post acquisition: just use the ordinary horizontal scale & position controls!
To make sure, for 3000T and Rigol that is correct. I don't know about the others.
But I LIKE zoom mode. It gives me overview where in the buffer I am. Also on 3000T, I just use touch screen to move around... I just wish that zoom window could change size (to be little smaller if I want) when it get crowded.
But, that is mostly because screen on 3000T is not very big.
Interesting; the DS4014 has a handy top "entire buffer" view that does the same thing and uses almost zero screen realstate. (Unless you mean something else, of course)

Pretty much something like that. Maybe a bit bigger, just to get a glimpse of shapes....

That mini view dates back to the earliest days of DSOs with more memory than would fit on screen: I think Tek originated it. It doesn't appear in the 1991 catalogue but by 1997 most DSO are shown with one. However, I think the 'wiggles' are a Rigol feature, Tek just used a flat line. And beware, the Rigol wiggles are just decoration, and have nothing to do with the actual captured waveform.
 

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #232 on: May 11, 2020, 01:35:28 pm »
[...]

Quote
Those multi-channel captures are also the kinds of scenarios where you most often end up looking for things that happened "off screen", in my experience at least.

As I said in my response to Dave's similar argument, this to me is more a case of bad preparation than anything else. If you think a bit about what you are going to do, what you expect to achieve and what you might encounter, it should be clear right from the start that you will very likely will need to look at signal segments other than the original point of interest.


It seems a bit harsh, to tell the photographer that if he didn't get the zoom factor exactly right before looking in the viewfinder, he must be badly prepared...   That isn't how everybody thinks.   

Some people like "bump and feel" parking...   if that was what we were talking about, I'd agree with you!  - but using the zoom flexibly if the instrument supports it, seems to be just making good use of the tool.   

Seems to me that just as cars all have different "personalities" that means they have to be driven slightly differently to get the best out of them, the same is true of scopes...   so the real meaning of "preparation" is to understand what your particular scope can do, and make the best use of it?
 

Offline nfmax

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1578
  • Country: gb
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #233 on: May 11, 2020, 01:50:40 pm »
Seems to me that just as cars all have different "personalities" that means they have to be driven slightly differently to get the best out of them, the same is true of scopes...   so the real meaning of "preparation" is to understand what your particular scope can do, and make the best use of it?

Right on the money! Dave, or maybe even Shahriar, should do an in-depth video of the ins & outs of oscilloscope zooming, with specific examples. It would be instructive.
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6981
  • Country: hr
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #234 on: May 11, 2020, 02:15:47 pm »
[...]
And if you make it a habit to always capture as long as sensible/possible then you are unlikely to find yourself in the situation that you need to access data which isn't instantly available and without having to stop the scope.

I guess that the Agilent/Keysight idea is to do that automatically, even if you have the scope set at a faster timebase.  Can't really be argued that it is a harmful idea, and it is useful often enough that I noticed the behaviour and started using it.

Yes, 3000T doesn't really do it in RUN mode, and when you STOP, you get only 400us at full sample rate. If your problem domain is jumping between 2ns/div to 10us/div you're golden. I use it all the time on stopped acquisitions in that time scale.  If you need to capture 10ms, you have to slow down.

None of that is supporting Nico's scenario: Capturing in constant RUN mode, with triggers happening every 10-20 seconds (or when he presses the button on DUT), he's looking at one SPI packet full screen (10 something micro seconds),  and then if that SPI packet is not right, he pulls back to 100 ms around the trigger and looks at the state of some other inputs to figure out state of device at he moment.
And once he's happy with analysis, he presses the button on DUT for another go.. While staying in RUN mode all the time. No STOP or SINGLE.
To make sure he can do that, he keeps scope in manual memory mode, sets it to some large memory setting, so on every trigger event scope will get enough of data.

I do the same thing on Pico (3000T is not perfect for this). I set Pico to 100MS mem depth, set it to 10ms/div (100ms total) , zoom in to area arround trigger (or wherever the packet is in full capture), press RUN and off we go...At the bottom of screen, I will also have full decoded table of whole capture, where I can click and screen will zoom in and jump to that packet..When I'm ready to move forward I press button on DUT for next cycle.

I don't see how is what I do more complicated (in fact it's less steps and more intuitive), and result is the same.
 
The following users thanked this post: Wuerstchenhund, SilverSolder

Offline WuerstchenhundTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3088
  • Country: gb
  • Able to drop by occasionally only
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #235 on: May 11, 2020, 02:31:13 pm »
It seems a bit harsh, to tell the photographer that if he didn't get the zoom factor exactly right before looking in the viewfinder, he must be badly prepared...   That isn't how everybody thinks.

Then go and ask any professional photographer if he really prefers having to determine the exact position on scene with no way to change it later without a notable loss of quality, and if it the original decision turns out to be wrong to have to go back to the actual place of scene and re-take the shot, over just being able to capture some excess and then decide later in his lab on which segment he wants to have in the image (and being able to play with different sizes and individual objects on his computer). It's a no-brainer, really.

The *only* thing preventing this is the unavoidable loss of resolution (i.e. detail) that comes with taking a 'zoomed out' wide shot of the whole scenery and then 'cutting out' the interesting objects in separate images. WHich comes from the fact that the sensor resolution is fixed and when "zoomed out" that fixed resolution has to cover a larger scene area, thus resulting in a lower resolution per scene area than when zoomed in.

Quote
Some people like "bump and feel" parking...   if that was what we were talking about, I'd agree with you!  - but using the zoom flexibly if the instrument supports it, seems to be just making good use of the tool.

The thing is, he's *not* using the zoom, he's using post-acquisition timebase changes purely for the purpose to avoid using the zoom function, as it seems mostly because his scope (if I had to guess I'd say GWI) has a cramped UI.

You are right of course that some people like doing stuff differently. Some even believe that injecting Clorox into your veins is a good idea. And while people are free to do what they want (as long as it's not affecting others, that is), quite often these things are based on believe, prejudice and habits, and don't make much sense on a rational scale.

As to "making good use", despite this long thread I yet have to see *any* credible data demonstrating the claimed benefits of this method. On the contrary, because of this thread and people looking closer, we now have evidence that this non-standard method is, actually, severely limited, not just in support by scopes but also because it's need to having the scope halted for it to actually work.

I had the chance to quickly talk with some of our senior EEs about this during a telecon this morning, and let's just say that the feedback to this method hasn't been positive ('nuff said).

Quote
Seems to me that just as cars all have different "personalities" that means they have to be driven slightly differently to get the best out of them, the same is true of scopes...

No, really not. The fundamental concept of *any* digital scope is that it allows you to capture (more or less, depending on the memory) long sequences and then lets you zoom in to the details. That's what they are designed for. It's really as straight forward as that.

And we should really stop with car analogies, because they are as stupid here as they are in most other situations they are used. Even more so when a lot of stuff regardings cars plays at emotional levels, not at technical ones.

Scopes aren't cars, they are test instrument to perform specific measurements based on scientific principles, working after an established understanding. Yes, there are differences in functionality and implementation, specs and cost, but they don't change the fact that they all conform to same fundamental concept. So because they aren't cars, you should not treat them as such.

Quote
so the real meaning of "preparation" is to understand what your particular scope can do, and make the best use of it?

The meaning of preparation is to avoid jumping in blindsighted and then stumble at the first "ohh" moment when you realize you missed some crucial stuff (and yes, I am aware that this is exactly what many hobbyists do).

Testing doesn't mean just poking something with an instrument to see what's coming out. Testing properly means working methodologically, you have to spend some time thinking about what you have, what you want to achieve, what you ideally expect, what problems/issues you may encounter and how to address them, and then develop a test strategy which will give you the desired data in a reasonable amount of time and with reasonable effort. And then you go and execute your strategy. And if your strategy was sensible you get the data you need. If not, you re-strategize and execute again. Simples.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 02:48:12 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 
The following users thanked this post: tautech, SilverSolder

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27315
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #236 on: May 11, 2020, 04:00:26 pm »
Testing doesn't mean just poking something with an instrument to see what's coming out. Testing properly means working methodologically, you have to spend some time thinking about what you have, what you want to achieve, what you ideally expect, what problems/issues you may encounter and how to address them, and then develop a test strategy which will give you the desired data in a reasonable amount of time and with reasonable effort. And then you go and execute your strategy.
And how does this tie in with the subject of this thread? You are still trying to convince people using half truths and straw man arguments an automatic gearbox should be used in manual mode only 'just because...'. Because of what?

So far your arguments seem to be:
- people who use recording beyond the screen are stupid and dumb
- an oscilloscope is not intended to do recording beyond the screen (I can show you a Tektronix manual which says otherwise but that wouldn't fit your Lecroy narrative)

All I'm seeing is someone who clearly isn't making his living using test equipment trying to tell real engineers how to do their job the right way as god intended. You just quoting randomly from the '10 Commandments of measuring' proves this.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 04:17:42 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
The following users thanked this post: bgm370

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28879
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #237 on: May 11, 2020, 04:11:57 pm »
The point is, zooming out is a crutch covering the far better methodology of zooming in.

Err, they aren't mutually exclusive!
Every scope works by zooming in, but it seems like the likes of Keysight have thought about it and implemented it slightly different to give you a potential added benefit if you so desire it.

Quote
Quote
No, the problem is definitely that some seem to be stuck in the idea that you should always zoom in and use exact settings.

Alternatively, others are stuck on zoom out methodology which severely limits the capability of the tool in front of you.

He's just taking advantage of a feature of the scope that gives benefit to him in some cases. I don't see the problem with this and in publicising it.
I greatly doubt he uses it in every case, in fact that's not even possible.
Then why promote an arse backwards modus operandi when the tool set in most modern scopes is many times more capable ?

While you are entitled to work with a scope in another 'round about' way those that you may train will have a shock if they go to work for others where zooming in is the universally accepted methodology.

Why be so hostile about learning a new way to get something done?
I'll offer you another memory trigger.
Certain members have used this arse backwards capture analysis MO to attack brands that don't support it and poisoned many threads over the years......if you need a further memory trigger, they have resulted in warnings and bans.

Quote
Is it because you never knew about it before?

 ::)
Quote
Is it because your beloved Siglent's don't have it?
Oh don't they ? Good, a brand that discourages arse backwards capture analysis.


But we need thank you Dave for pulling this discussion into its own thread where this weird capture analysis procedure gets some air and proper analysis of its own so it's clear that scopes, brands if you like and users each have their own toolset to undertake capture analysis albeit in some most unusual ways.

Now we have this thread I for one will be bookmarking it so further uncalled for poisonings of threads can be linked back here to let the reader decide what modus operandi are the universally accepted means of capture analysis and not some stabbing of buttons and twiddling of knobs but instead of a properly considered capture plan and a carefully set instrument.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone

Offline Gandalf_Sr

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1729
  • Country: us
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #238 on: May 11, 2020, 04:53:40 pm »
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
O: Well! it CAN be!
M: No it can't!
M: An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
O: No it isn't!
M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!
M: Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
O: It is NOT!
M: It is!
O: Not at all!
M: It is!
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer
 

Offline Martin72

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6240
  • Country: de
  • Testfield Technician
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #239 on: May 11, 2020, 05:44:29 pm »
 :-DD
"Comparison is the end of happiness and the beginning of dissatisfaction."
(Kierkegaard)
Siglent SDS800X HD Deep Review
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6981
  • Country: hr
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #240 on: May 11, 2020, 06:51:08 pm »
 

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #241 on: May 12, 2020, 01:51:25 pm »
[...]
And if you make it a habit to always capture as long as sensible/possible then you are unlikely to find yourself in the situation that you need to access data which isn't instantly available and without having to stop the scope.

I guess that the Agilent/Keysight idea is to do that automatically, even if you have the scope set at a faster timebase.  Can't really be argued that it is a harmful idea, and it is useful often enough that I noticed the behaviour and started using it.

Yes, 3000T doesn't really do it in RUN mode, and when you STOP, you get only 400us at full sample rate. If your problem domain is jumping between 2ns/div to 10us/div you're golden. I use it all the time on stopped acquisitions in that time scale.  If you need to capture 10ms, you have to slow down.

None of that is supporting Nico's scenario: Capturing in constant RUN mode, with triggers happening every 10-20 seconds (or when he presses the button on DUT), he's looking at one SPI packet full screen (10 something micro seconds),  and then if that SPI packet is not right, he pulls back to 100 ms around the trigger and looks at the state of some other inputs to figure out state of device at he moment.
And once he's happy with analysis, he presses the button on DUT for another go.. While staying in RUN mode all the time. No STOP or SINGLE.
To make sure he can do that, he keeps scope in manual memory mode, sets it to some large memory setting, so on every trigger event scope will get enough of data.

I do the same thing on Pico (3000T is not perfect for this). I set Pico to 100MS mem depth, set it to 10ms/div (100ms total) , zoom in to area arround trigger (or wherever the packet is in full capture), press RUN and off we go...At the bottom of screen, I will also have full decoded table of whole capture, where I can click and screen will zoom in and jump to that packet..When I'm ready to move forward I press button on DUT for next cycle.

I don't see how is what I do more complicated (in fact it's less steps and more intuitive), and result is the same.

When you set the scope in manual memory mode to capture more data, is the "punishment" then that you get less waveform updates per second?
 

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #242 on: May 12, 2020, 02:05:27 pm »
[...]
Testing doesn't mean just poking something with an instrument to see what's coming out.

Well, most of the time that statement is accurate...  but it seems very cut and dried unless you are in a controlled environment.   Say you are repairing an unfamiliar and undocumented piece of equipment, you have absolutely no idea what is causing some obscure fault  - so you are looking for clues.  You might be following the "golden rule" of checking the supply voltages first, for example.  So you might look for excessive noise on the lines.  But at what frequency?  Depends on the circuitry sipping the juice as much as the PSU, right?  Could be 60Hz, 120Hz, or several megahertz.  Taking a look around using different timebases suddenly seems more like a prudent strategy of elimination rather than random probing?


Quote
Testing properly means working methodologically, you have to spend some time thinking about what you have, what you want to achieve, what you ideally expect, what problems/issues you may encounter and how to address them, and then develop a test strategy which will give you the desired data in a reasonable amount of time and with reasonable effort. And then you go and execute your strategy. And if your strategy was sensible you get the data you need. If not, you re-strategize and execute again. Simples.

Sure, but that could describe playing chess or any other difficult activity...  in other words, the description is not enough information to actually play the game well!

« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 02:09:27 pm by SilverSolder »
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6981
  • Country: hr
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #243 on: May 12, 2020, 02:11:00 pm »
[...]
And if you make it a habit to always capture as long as sensible/possible then you are unlikely to find yourself in the situation that you need to access data which isn't instantly available and without having to stop the scope.

I guess that the Agilent/Keysight idea is to do that automatically, even if you have the scope set at a faster timebase.  Can't really be argued that it is a harmful idea, and it is useful often enough that I noticed the behaviour and started using it.

Yes, 3000T doesn't really do it in RUN mode, and when you STOP, you get only 400us at full sample rate. If your problem domain is jumping between 2ns/div to 10us/div you're golden. I use it all the time on stopped acquisitions in that time scale.  If you need to capture 10ms, you have to slow down.

None of that is supporting Nico's scenario: Capturing in constant RUN mode, with triggers happening every 10-20 seconds (or when he presses the button on DUT), he's looking at one SPI packet full screen (10 something micro seconds),  and then if that SPI packet is not right, he pulls back to 100 ms around the trigger and looks at the state of some other inputs to figure out state of device at he moment.
And once he's happy with analysis, he presses the button on DUT for another go.. While staying in RUN mode all the time. No STOP or SINGLE.
To make sure he can do that, he keeps scope in manual memory mode, sets it to some large memory setting, so on every trigger event scope will get enough of data.

I do the same thing on Pico (3000T is not perfect for this). I set Pico to 100MS mem depth, set it to 10ms/div (100ms total) , zoom in to area arround trigger (or wherever the packet is in full capture), press RUN and off we go...At the bottom of screen, I will also have full decoded table of whole capture, where I can click and screen will zoom in and jump to that packet..When I'm ready to move forward I press button on DUT for next cycle.

I don't see how is what I do more complicated (in fact it's less steps and more intuitive), and result is the same.

When you set the scope in manual memory mode to capture more data, is the "punishment" then that you get less waveform updates per second?
If you set the scope to acquire 250ms worth of data every time it triggers, you get 4 triggers per second... It's that simple.
 
The following users thanked this post: SilverSolder

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #244 on: May 12, 2020, 02:16:10 pm »
[...]
Certain members have used this arse backwards capture analysis MO to attack brands that don't support it
[...]

Which is of course silly, because any instrument has a large feature matrix of which this is only one item. 

In the long run, most manufacturers end up having all the popular features implemented one way or another.

I know we shouldn't compare with cars, but since we love cars, it's hard not to...  - if you are having an argument about which is best, standard or automatic gearbox, the answer inevitably depends on...  who is driving the car.
 
The following users thanked this post: tautech

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4670
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #245 on: May 12, 2020, 11:06:39 pm »
When you set the scope in manual memory mode to capture more data, is the "punishment" then that you get less waveform updates per second?
If you set the scope to acquire 250ms worth of data every time it triggers, you get 4 triggers per second... It's that simple.
That also assumes the scope is completely "ideal" and has no processing limitations. At extremely slow timebases, some scopes can approach the theoretical rates but others don't come close (only a few %), recall that most of the "competitive" comparisons put the scopes in their best performing modes so its rare to see them compared at equal memory depths as shared above (or the famous dot mode use case that few people ever want). At the other extreme end with narrow timebases is where Mr W always drives the conversation to. There is a whole landscape of uses in-between with timebases in the KHz rates, performance at any particular timebase may not predict the performance elsewhere.
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6981
  • Country: hr
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #246 on: May 12, 2020, 11:20:43 pm »
When you set the scope in manual memory mode to capture more data, is the "punishment" then that you get less waveform updates per second?
If you set the scope to acquire 250ms worth of data every time it triggers, you get 4 triggers per second... It's that simple.
That also assumes the scope is completely "ideal" and has no processing limitations. At extremely slow timebases, some scopes can approach the theoretical rates but others don't come close (only a few %), recall that most of the "competitive" comparisons put the scopes in their best performing modes so its rare to see them compared at equal memory depths as shared above (or the famous dot mode use case that few people ever want). At the other extreme end with narrow timebases is where Mr W always drives the conversation to. There is a whole landscape of uses in-between with timebases in the KHz rates, performance at any particular timebase may not predict the performance elsewhere.
You are correct, that is ideal case. You cannot get better than. I said it on purpose to show that even ideal case has consequences, there is no free lunch. Fixed manual memory management requires constant user effort. That is main reason many reason will pick Keysight scopes for interactive work, because they handle memory automatically. Rigol also has nice auto mode. Simply works.
 

Offline nfmax

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1578
  • Country: gb
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #247 on: May 13, 2020, 08:44:16 am »
[...] However, instead of using 'spare' memory for off screen capture, I rather like the Siglent technique of keeping a history of previous acquisitions you can go back and look at [...]

Is that what "save to disk" or "save to usb" etc does?

No, scope memory is used in seamless segmented mode, meaning scope keeps hundreds of previous "screens" (trigger events) at all times, transparently. With no performance impact to normal use.

So you can scroll back and view previous events? -  That does sound kind of cool.
Not only scroll. Search, measure, make histograms, create display persistence (overlap them all), decode protocols...etc...

It looks like the new Keysight MXR has learned this trick as well:

Quote
  • Standard history mode and segmented memory
Use the history mode to view previous trigger events over 1,024 acquired waveforms. The segmented memory enables the oscilloscope to capture over 5,000 future waveforms for analysis.

Source: https://www.keysight.com/gb/en/cmp/2020/introducing-the-world-s-first-8-channel-rtsa-oscilloscope.html
 

Offline WuerstchenhundTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3088
  • Country: gb
  • Able to drop by occasionally only
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #248 on: May 13, 2020, 10:04:53 am »
[...]
Testing doesn't mean just poking something with an instrument to see what's coming out.

Well, most of the time that statement is accurate...  but it seems very cut and dried unless you are in a controlled environment.   Say you are repairing an unfamiliar and undocumented piece of equipment, you have absolutely no idea what is causing some obscure fault  - so you are looking for clues.  You might be following the "golden rule" of checking the supply voltages first, for example.  So you might look for excessive noise on the lines.  But at what frequency?  Depends on the circuitry sipping the juice as much as the PSU, right?  Could be 60Hz, 120Hz, or several megahertz.  Taking a look around using different timebases suddenly seems more like a prudent strategy of elimination rather than random probing?

It really doesn't matter if you're dealing with a familiar device or something new, really. Because there is always some basic information you will have. You may not be familiar with the UUT but you still must have some idea what it does, because if not then you wouldn't be able to determine what is faulty behavior and what not in the first place.

You always start from what you know, not from what you don't know. And the more you don't know about the UUT the more critical becomes proper preparation before you start probing.

In your noise example you wouldn't jump in with a scope. You'd first visually examine the device, check for visible damage, determine what kind of PSU it uses, how it seems to work and what voltages you expect to see where (which also are your first test points). You then might want to draw this out on a piece of paper and mark the points to test (and what voltage you'd expect at each point).

Right now you have already increased your knowledge about the UUT without even doing any measurements! But it's probably also as far as you can get visually with the amount of information you have, so to learn even more you need to start to gather additional data.

The first set of measurements should establish what the actual voltages are at the points you identified and if they are stable. Because knowing the voltages will help you to establish if your basic assumptions above about the PSU are correct. And the best tool to measure voltages isn't a scope, it's a DMM. Depending on the capabilities of your DMM you might also want to measure the AC component (low frequency noise, usually somewhere up to 1kHz) of DC voltages.

So you power up the device, measure the voltages and (for DC voltages also the AC components) at the test points and note them down in your drawing.

Then you go back to your paper which now has the new data, look at the test points and the expected and the measured voltages (and the measured AC component). If there are differences then you start examining the ciruitry which feeds the rail which shows the difference, deduct some schematics and calculate what the correct voltage and tolerable AC component would be. Maybe you determine you need additional data (i.e. the voltages over specific components), so add the additional test points to your drawing and perform another set of measurements which gives you even more data. Then you go back to your drawing to evaluate the data and find out if the results are as expected or not.

If so far everything has worked out then the point comes where you look at noise, and for that the scope is probably the best tool. But agin, you shouldn't just jump in, twiddling knobs until something appears on the screen. You spend some time thinking about what information you want (here: amplitude and frequency of noise if there's any) and what can you get, based on the limitations of your test equipment.

Let's for the moment assume all you have is a DS1054z, i.e. a basic scope with no power analysis or other advanced stuff, plus some passive x10 probes (say 250MHz). In single channel mode you get 1GSa/s and an analog BW of (hacked) around 130MHz. Therefore any noise you can find with your scope will be within a range of ]0Hz;130MHz]. Also, the noise amplitude needs to exceed the scope's + probe's internal noise, as otherwise it would get hidden in your test equipment's noise floor. So let's say (let's assume for the moment the DS1054z noise floor is at 800uV, or 8mV with an x10 probe). So clearly, you're not capturing very low noise levels (which still might shift the power rail outside spec) or noise components of more of approx 130MHz.

The DMM measurments already covered AC ripple up to 1kHz (if not then you'd want measurements specific for that). Which means the noise frequency you want to look at would be [1kHz;130MHz]. 1kHz means a period is 1ms long, and ideally you want to capture at least three of them. A DS1054z with 24Mpts will be able to capture 10 periods (10ms) at full 1GSa/s sample rate (using 10Mpts memory), so the scope should be set to a timebase of 1ms/div. Set trigger mode to AUTO, trigger level to say 10mV, enable Vpp and Vrms measurements, then start to probe. Connect to the test point and turn up the vertical div setting to increase the signal to cover as much screen space as possible without extruding from it. Enable zoom and zoom in to check various sizes of a signal segment for any visible AC content. In your example, lets assume that most PSU rails are OK but there is one with lots of noise. So you make sure the signal height is maximized as for screen height use without over-shooting, then enable FFT so look at the frequency components. Set FFT to cover the band from 1kHz (or zero) to 130MHz and then read out the individual peaks.

At this point you not only know which rail has the noise problem, you also know that the other rails are fine and for the failing rail you even know the noise frequency (which can help you find out where it comes from, if you, again, use a methodological approach).

No matter where you start, you always need to make sure first that you understand what you are testing before you can even think about making a determination if certain behavior is normal or a fault.

Learn to test, test to learn! :)

Quote
Quote
Testing properly means working methodologically, you have to spend some time thinking about what you have, what you want to achieve, what you ideally expect, what problems/issues you may encounter and how to address them, and then develop a test strategy which will give you the desired data in a reasonable amount of time and with reasonable effort. And then you go and execute your strategy. And if your strategy was sensible you get the data you need. If not, you re-strategize and execute again. Simples.

Sure, but that could describe playing chess or any other difficult activity...  in other words, the description is not enough information to actually play the game well!

It is. Again, think about what you know, not what you don't know. A methodological approach gives you a way to get the missing, relevant data in shortest time and with the least amount of effort.

And yes, that same principle may well hold true for other unrelated activities. Chess, after all, is a game of strategy ;)

« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 10:11:52 am by Wuerstchenhund »
 
The following users thanked this post: SilverSolder

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #249 on: May 13, 2020, 10:19:00 am »
[...]
It looks like the new Keysight MXR has learned this trick as well:

Quote
  • Standard history mode and segmented memory
Use the history mode to view previous trigger events over 1,024 acquired waveforms. The segmented memory enables the oscilloscope to capture over 5,000 future waveforms for analysis.

Source: https://www.keysight.com/gb/en/cmp/2020/introducing-the-world-s-first-8-channel-rtsa-oscilloscope.html

That is one tasty scope...  8 channels @ 6GHz would have been science fiction specs not that long ago!
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf