Author Topic: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk  (Read 70265 times)

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Offline WuerstchenhundTopic starter

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #250 on: May 13, 2020, 10:49:43 am »
[...]
It looks like the new Keysight MXR has learned this trick as well:

Quote
  • Standard history mode and segmented memory
Use the history mode to view previous trigger events over 1,024 acquired waveforms. The segmented memory enables the oscilloscope to capture over 5,000 future waveforms for analysis.

Source: https://www.keysight.com/gb/en/cmp/2020/introducing-the-world-s-first-8-channel-rtsa-oscilloscope.html

That is one tasty scope... 

Yes, very interesting. Apparently we already got one of the early MXR units but to SARS-CoV-2 it's out of reach for now :(

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8 channels @ 6GHz would have been science fiction specs not that long ago!

Not within the last 6 years ;)

How about 80 channels @ 36Ghz, or 20 channels @ 100GHz?  >:D

http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/labmaster-10zi-a-datasheet.pdf
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #251 on: May 13, 2020, 12:03:35 pm »
[...]
How about 80 channels @ 36Ghz, or 20 channels @ 100GHz?  >:D

http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/labmaster-10zi-a-datasheet.pdf

Looks like it might be adequate for working with an Arduino, or something!  :D
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #252 on: May 14, 2020, 02:37:20 am »
[...]
Testing doesn't mean just poking something with an instrument to see what's coming out.


Well, most of the time that statement is accurate...  but it seems very cut and dried unless you are in a controlled environment.   Say you are repairing an unfamiliar and undocumented piece of equipment, you have absolutely no idea what is causing some obscure fault  - so you are looking for clues.  You might be following the "golden rule" of checking the supply voltages first, for example.  So you might look for excessive noise on the lines.  But at what frequency?  Depends on the circuitry sipping the juice as much as the PSU, right?  Could be 60Hz, 120Hz, or several megahertz.  Taking a look around using different timebases suddenly seems more like a prudent strategy of elimination rather than random probing?


It really doesn't matter if you're dealing with a familiar device or something new, really. Because there is always some basic information you will have. You may not be familiar with the UUT but you still must have some idea what it does, because if not then you wouldn't be able to determine what is faulty behavior and what not in the first place.

You always start from what you know, not from what you don't know. And the more you don't know about the UUT the more critical becomes proper preparation before you start probing.

In your noise example you wouldn't jump in with a scope. You'd first visually examine the device, check for visible damage, determine what kind of PSU it uses, how it seems to work and what voltages you expect to see where (which also are your first test points). You then might want to draw this out on a piece of paper and mark the points to test (and what voltage you'd expect at each point).

Right now you have already increased your knowledge about the UUT without even doing any measurements! But it's probably also as far as you can get visually with the amount of information you have, so to learn even more you need to start to gather additional data.

The first set of measurements should establish what the actual voltages are at the points you identified and if they are stable. Because knowing the voltages will help you to establish if your basic assumptions above about the PSU are correct. And the best tool to measure voltages isn't a scope, it's a DMM. Depending on the capabilities of your DMM you might also want to measure the AC component (low frequency noise, usually somewhere up to 1kHz) of DC voltages.

So you power up the device, measure the voltages and (for DC voltages also the AC components) at the test points and note them down in your drawing.

Then you go back to your paper which now has the new data, look at the test points and the expected and the measured voltages (and the measured AC component). If there are differences then you start examining the ciruitry which feeds the rail which shows the difference, deduct some schematics and calculate what the correct voltage and tolerable AC component would be. Maybe you determine you need additional data (i.e. the voltages over specific components), so add the additional test points to your drawing and perform another set of measurements which gives you even more data. Then you go back to your drawing to evaluate the data and find out if the results are as expected or not.

If so far everything has worked out then the point comes where you look at noise, and for that the scope is probably the best tool. But agin, you shouldn't just jump in, twiddling knobs until something appears on the screen. You spend some time thinking about what information you want (here: amplitude and frequency of noise if there's any) and what can you get, based on the limitations of your test equipment.

Let's for the moment assume all you have is a DS1054z, i.e. a basic scope with no power analysis or other advanced stuff, plus some passive x10 probes (say 250MHz). In single channel mode you get 1GSa/s and an analog BW of (hacked) around 130MHz. Therefore any noise you can find with your scope will be within a range of ]0Hz;130MHz]. Also, the noise amplitude needs to exceed the scope's + probe's internal noise, as otherwise it would get hidden in your test equipment's noise floor. So let's say (let's assume for the moment the DS1054z noise floor is at 800uV, or 8mV with an x10 probe). So clearly, you're not capturing very low noise levels (which still might shift the power rail outside spec) or noise components of more of approx 130MHz.

The DMM measurments already covered AC ripple up to 1kHz (if not then you'd want measurements specific for that). Which means the noise frequency you want to look at would be [1kHz;130MHz]. 1kHz means a period is 1ms long, and ideally you want to capture at least three of them. A DS1054z with 24Mpts will be able to capture 10 periods (10ms) at full 1GSa/s sample rate (using 10Mpts memory), so the scope should be set to a timebase of 1ms/div. Set trigger mode to AUTO, trigger level to say 10mV, enable Vpp and Vrms measurements, then start to probe. Connect to the test point and turn up the vertical div setting to increase the signal to cover as much screen space as possible without extruding from it. Enable zoom and zoom in to check various sizes of a signal segment for any visible AC content. In your example, lets assume that most PSU rails are OK but there is one with lots of noise. So you make sure the signal height is maximized as for screen height use without over-shooting, then enable FFT so look at the frequency components. Set FFT to cover the band from 1kHz (or zero) to 130MHz and then read out the individual peaks.

At this point you not only know which rail has the noise problem, you also know that the other rails are fine and for the failing rail you even know the noise frequency (which can help you find out where it comes from, if you, again, use a methodological approach).

No matter where you start, you always need to make sure first that you understand what you are testing before you can even think about making a determination if certain behavior is normal or a fault.

Learn to test, test to learn! :)

Quote
Quote
Testing properly means working methodologically, you have to spend some time thinking about what you have, what you want to achieve, what you ideally expect, what problems/issues you may encounter and how to address them, and then develop a test strategy which will give you the desired data in a reasonable amount of time and with reasonable effort. And then you go and execute your strategy. And if your strategy was sensible you get the data you need. If not, you re-strategize and execute again. Simples.


Sure, but that could describe playing chess or any other difficult activity...  in other words, the description is not enough information to actually play the game well!


It is. Again, think about what you know, not what you don't know. A methodological approach gives you a way to get the missing, relevant data in shortest time and with the least amount of effort.

And yes, that same principle may well hold true for other unrelated activities. Chess, after all, is a game of strategy ;)



I think that sounds a perfectly valid strategy and I do appreciate the logic.  The strategies and "hunches" used to fault find could fill entire bookshelves.

But - is it downright wrong to just use the scope for the whole thing in this example?  - after all, most digital scopes will give you the DC voltage, peak to peak & RMS noise, as well as a visual indication of any noise, and more, just by touching the probe to a rail once and doing a single shot (which you then zoom in/out, naturally, to get the full overview).  In many repair situations, the boss will want FAST results...  and a digital scope is surely one of the fastest and best tools ever for inspecting the overall behaviour or electronic circuits, even at the initial stages?

One of the huge advantages of multi-channel scopes is revealing connected behaviours between different parts of the circuit that would be difficult to see with a DMM or even a single channel scope.  So for example, by scoping 2 rails and an output simultaneously you might see events that are connected between them, possibly giving you vital clues that you wouldn't otherwise have got?

 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #253 on: May 14, 2020, 03:05:08 am »
(...)
One of the huge advantages of multi-channel scopes is revealing connected behaviours between different parts of the circuit that would be difficult to see with a DMM or even a single channel scope.  So for example, by scoping 2 rails and an output simultaneously you might see events that are connected between them, possibly giving you vital clues that you wouldn't otherwise have got?
I don't know about you, but in the occasions I have to troubleshoot something, I rarely bring the 'scope in the first place - a meter tends to be more versatile and needs much less fiddling to get a reading - move the cursor to "V=" or "V~" or whatever and off you go.

Sure, having a meter with a wide bandwidth, decent AC decoupling and other specialties goes much further than a cheapie, especially when you suspect there is excessive ripple of some sorts over DC or need to do differential probing around on the circuit (where the 'scope GND can ruin your day easily). Getting some long and thin probe tips and some SMT or J grabbers are a great help (Keysight U1164A or Keysight U1163A). With oscilloscope probes, finding a good ground place on the equipment under inspection sometimes is quite annoying, and depending on the distance between the GND and the measurement point you will see a lot of noise that may confuse at a first glance.

Anyways, that is my experience.
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #254 on: May 14, 2020, 02:13:18 pm »
(...)
One of the huge advantages of multi-channel scopes is revealing connected behaviours between different parts of the circuit that would be difficult to see with a DMM or even a single channel scope.  So for example, by scoping 2 rails and an output simultaneously you might see events that are connected between them, possibly giving you vital clues that you wouldn't otherwise have got?
I don't know about you, but in the occasions I have to troubleshoot something, I rarely bring the 'scope in the first place - a meter tends to be more versatile and needs much less fiddling to get a reading - move the cursor to "V=" or "V~" or whatever and off you go.

Sure, having a meter with a wide bandwidth, decent AC decoupling and other specialties goes much further than a cheapie, especially when you suspect there is excessive ripple of some sorts over DC or need to do differential probing around on the circuit (where the 'scope GND can ruin your day easily). Getting some long and thin probe tips and some SMT or J grabbers are a great help (Keysight U1164A or Keysight U1163A). With oscilloscope probes, finding a good ground place on the equipment under inspection sometimes is quite annoying, and depending on the distance between the GND and the measurement point you will see a lot of noise that may confuse at a first glance.

Anyways, that is my experience.

My favourite "trick" for using the scope as a DMM is to set up a really slow "chart roll" mode (e.g. a minute for a screen full), then start probing - each measurement becomes a "pulse" on the chart.  That way, you get a slowly moving history of the points you probed, which you can look closer at if necessary.  You can probe dozens of points on a PCB and contrast and compare.  Any problem areas stick out like a sore thumb.



 
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Online EEVblog

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #255 on: June 10, 2020, 04:54:48 am »
Video coming out tomorrow:

« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 10:43:12 am by EEVblog »
 
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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #256 on: June 10, 2020, 04:57:13 am »
How about of we all try to summarize our positions and then we can all get back to doing important stuff like playing Candy Crush?

See my latest video.
- It could be handy in certain circumstances, but most of the time not needed.
- Certainly wouldn't base a buying decision on it (Siglent + Lecroy seems to to be the only ones without it)
- In several scopes you can enable or disable it by selecting manual memory length.
- In some scopes it's a trade off vs update rate.
 
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Online tautech

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #257 on: June 10, 2020, 07:51:11 am »
How about of we all try to summarize our positions and then we can all get back to doing important stuff like playing Candy Crush?

See my latest video.
- It could be handy in certain circumstances, but most of the time not needed.
- Certainly wouldn't base a buying decision on it (Siglent + Lecroy seems to to be the only ones without it)
- In several scopes you can enable or disable it by selecting manual memory length.
- In some scopes it's a trade off vs update rate.
We look forward to your followup video Dave when you discover the capabilities of 2 obscure buttons on the Siglent front panel.  ;)  :popcorn:
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Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #258 on: June 10, 2020, 08:26:25 am »
Video coming out tomorrow:



Someone is going to do something naughty in front of this video  ;D

To be more serious, it is a very nice video, I don't know if the video comparing FFT is more popular than others but I love videos that allow you to compare a bunch of oscilloscopes on the same situations.
It is very useful to see how the user interface works compared to another or how this scope dehaves compared to another in general.

 :-+
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 08:41:39 am by jemangedeslolos »
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #259 on: June 10, 2020, 09:36:04 am »
Thanks for the video Dave, it captures (no pun intended) the essence of what we've been discussing in this thread.

Next challenge is the associated decode problem that came up in this thread.

Say you've captured a load of data and can zoom out, slide sideways, and zoom back in; you can see the waveform but the decode of the data (this is the gripe) for an RS232 stream can look like garbage.  Why? The answer seems to be that the decode is performed on what's on the screen so, unless the decode starts at a valid data block beginning, the entire rest of the decoded data can show as junk - at least it is on my Rigol MSO5074 - even though it's clear that there's good data in the capture.  Given the trigger would have been somewhere in the center of the capture, zooming out/scrolling sideways puts us into a situation where we can't control where the data capture starts and the decode algorithms aren't smart enough to search and find the beginning of a valid data block.

Any ideas?
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Online nctnico

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #260 on: June 10, 2020, 10:04:39 am »
Unfortunately the only way out is to use zoom mode on Rigol.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #261 on: June 10, 2020, 10:23:31 am »
Excellent video, Dave. Thanks for doing this. I only missed doing the exercise of differentiating the buffer size between the Run/Stop and the Single modes on the Tek, just like it was done on the Keysight.

Another interesting detail I haven't noticed is how annoying are the knobs on the Siglent: all have almost the same size. I suspect that would confuse the heck out of me.

We look forward to your followup video Dave when you discover the capabilities of 2 obscure buttons on the Siglent front panel.  ;)  :popcorn:
Tautech, why not show the steps to achieve this without cheekiness? Remember that people that come across this thread may be trying to make a purchase decision - since they will not have a Siglent in front of them to explore the mysterious buttons, they will go elsewhere.
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Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #262 on: June 10, 2020, 10:41:27 am »
Thanks for the video Dave, it captures (no pun intended) the essence of what we've been discussing in this thread.

Next challenge is the associated decode problem that came up in this thread.

Say you've captured a load of data and can zoom out, slide sideways, and zoom back in; you can see the waveform but the decode of the data (this is the gripe) for an RS232 stream can look like garbage.  Why? The answer seems to be that the decode is performed on what's on the screen so, unless the decode starts at a valid data block beginning, the entire rest of the decoded data can show as junk - at least it is on my Rigol MSO5074 - even though it's clear that there's good data in the capture.  Given the trigger would have been somewhere in the center of the capture, zooming out/scrolling sideways puts us into a situation where we can't control where the data capture starts and the decode algorithms aren't smart enough to search and find the beginning of a valid data block.

Any ideas?


Hummm Im pretty sure I have no problem on my MSO7000 so it is maybe a bug to address ?
I can zoom out and all the data now on screen are decoded in the event table.
If I zoom into a packet that was out the screen previously, the serial decode works with no problem.
 

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #263 on: June 10, 2020, 10:43:52 am »
Video was just updated. Shortened by a few minutes (just tighter editing), couple of overlay texts added.
 

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #264 on: June 10, 2020, 10:44:54 am »
Another interesting detail I haven't noticed is how annoying are the knobs on the Siglent: all have almost the same size. I suspect that would confuse the heck out of me.

I find that really annoying!
 

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #265 on: June 10, 2020, 10:47:08 am »
We look forward to your followup video Dave when you discover the capabilities of 2 obscure buttons on the Siglent front panel.  ;)  :popcorn:

If you have something to share that I missed then you'd better tell me right now, because I leave home in 30 minutes and the video gets auto published tomorrow while I'm sleeping.

If you are referring to Zoom mode, then nope, makes no difference in this instance.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 10:51:59 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #266 on: June 10, 2020, 10:53:50 am »
We look forward to your followup video Dave when you discover the capabilities of 2 obscure buttons on the Siglent front panel.  ;)  :popcorn:

If you have something to share that I missed then you'd better tell me right now, because I leave home in 30 minutes and the video gets auto published tomorrow while I'm sleeping.

I think he is talking about zoom mode but it is a feature that all modern scopes have and there are downsides.
 

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #267 on: June 10, 2020, 10:59:44 am »
As to "zooming out", most scopes don't allow zooming outside the scope area.

Actually, most scopes do, see my video. On some you have to set manual memory size though. Keysight, Tek, Rigol, Uni-T, Owon, R&S, GW Instek all do it.
 

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #268 on: June 10, 2020, 11:01:58 am »
We look forward to your followup video Dave when you discover the capabilities of 2 obscure buttons on the Siglent front panel.  ;)  :popcorn:

If you have something to share that I missed then you'd better tell me right now, because I leave home in 30 minutes and the video gets auto published tomorrow while I'm sleeping.

I think he is talking about zoom mode but it is a feature that all modern scopes have and there are downsides.

Nope, doesn't work. As per my video, at 5us time base the Siglent in zoom mode only captures 100k points in 200M mmeory size mode and does not zoom out.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #269 on: June 10, 2020, 11:37:13 am »
Another interesting detail I haven't noticed is how annoying are the knobs on the Siglent: all have almost the same size. I suspect that would confuse the heck out of me.

I find that really annoying!
Then paint them or add heatshrink to them until muscle memory develops.
They're nothing new and first seen on the SDS2000X models, then 5000X and now 2kX Plus.

We look forward to your followup video Dave when you discover the capabilities of 2 obscure buttons on the Siglent front panel.  ;)  :popcorn:

If you have something to share that I missed then you'd better tell me right now, because I leave home in 30 minutes and the video gets auto published tomorrow while I'm sleeping.

If you are referring to Zoom mode, then nope, makes no difference in this instance.
Publish it Dave as there is further discussion required as to why an operator cannot adapt to suit the tools at their disposal right at their fingertips.

Many could learn how easy it is to access the continually refreshed History buffer where the entire DSO's memory is available to inspect just as easily as using a timebase control without the obvious limitations your investigations revealed.
Dave MathCAD should do some work on History.  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 11:46:43 am by tautech »
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Online nctnico

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #270 on: June 10, 2020, 11:59:56 am »
Publish it Dave as there is further discussion required as to why an operator cannot adapt to suit the tools at their disposal right at their fingertips.
There is no sense in doing that. You are trying to argue that a front-wheel drive car is suitable for driving on muddy dirt roads and it is the driver's fault when a car gets stuck.  :palm:  Sometimes the wrong tool simply is the wrong tool. Just go tell Siglent to turn their scopes into 4 wheel drive models; that would be actually useful. Suggesting history mode just goes to show that you really have no idea on what the actual use case is!
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 06:01:09 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #271 on: June 10, 2020, 11:34:25 pm »
If you have something to share that I missed then you'd better tell me right now, because I leave home in 30 minutes and the video gets auto published tomorrow while I'm sleeping.
If you are referring to Zoom mode, then nope, makes no difference in this instance.
Publish it Dave as there is further discussion required as to why an operator cannot adapt to suit the tools at their disposal right at their fingertips.

Many could learn how easy it is to access the continually refreshed History buffer where the entire DSO's memory is available to inspect just as easily as using a timebase control without the obvious limitations your investigations revealed.
Dave MathCAD should do some work on History.  :popcorn:

Err, history mode does NOT show you the data outside the display window, which is the entire point of this whole thing.
The Siglent might have continuous history mode, but it's limited to the screen and the 100k points at 5us/div.
And that continuous mode doesn't work in single shot mode anyway.
Your argument has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 11:37:26 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #272 on: June 10, 2020, 11:44:57 pm »
Not to mention history isn't unique to Siglent. Not zooming out almost IS unique to Siglent.
 

Offline WKibler

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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #273 on: June 11, 2020, 01:25:18 am »
I can confirm my Tek DSA602A will not zoom out. In case anyone was wondering. We will see if Tektronix puts out a firmware update. Fingers crossed. LOL
 
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Re: Oscilloscope Zoom Out Quirk
« Reply #274 on: June 11, 2020, 02:01:13 am »
The question is "what does the scope do by default when it has extra memory beyond what's used by the configured acquisition." The three answers I've seen are "waste it," "extend the acquisition," and "hold on to past acquisitions." Wasting it is dumb, extending the acquisition is nice, but history is my favorite:



Maybe if I were doing a lot of serial decoding and running into partial packets my preference would flip. History (aka configured-by-default segmented memory) is still pretty nice for serial though. Of course, in both cases, it's just a default, and you can still configure the other behavior if you want. Personally I think widening the acquisition and activating a zoom window is slightly easier than configuring segmented memory, but only slightly.
 
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