Oscilloscope recommendation DS1054Z / SDS1104X-E / GDS-1104B / etc?

[nctnico]

Nevertheless you can buy scopes with good, efficient user interfaces in the price range the OP is looking for. MicSig used to be priced a bit more competitive in the past but seem to have raised their prices a bit.

[Fungus]

Ok, I had the camera set up so let's do it:

The very reason why touch screen scopes are very popular.

Yep. There's no going back. :-)

FWIW, Rigol is currently launching touch-screen 'scopes with totally new UI for about the same price as current-gen devices. 

How much seconds on your Micsig to enable measurement statistics..?

The new Rigols do statistics an order of magnitude better than current generation scopes.

I'm expecting to go back to Rigol towards the end of this year, assuming they don't do anything stupid.

[Fungus]

Nevertheless you can buy scopes with good, efficient user interfaces in the price range the OP is looking for. MicSig used to be priced a bit more competitive in the past but seem to have raised their prices a bit.

Yeah, they've gone a bit off course lately.

If they'd released a new firmware with a couple of extra features they'd have gained a whole new user base, but they've decided to go towards higher-end (more expensive) devices instead. Their selling point was the form factor and UI but they won't be able to compete with the new Rigols when they appear.

I do like Micsig's internal battery and portability but the Rigols will work from a USB-C powerbank, so... 

[Performa01]

How much seconds on your Micsig to enable measurement statistics..?

Measurement statistics are only for wimps. Real men can do without!

[corey]

Thanks to all for your suggestions and help. Whilst I did do a quick search for previous discussion along these lines, I've since realised there are actually a lot more than I initially looked at. So thanks also for the patience dealing with "yet another newbie who is asking for a recommendation".

I ended up ordering an SDS2104X Plus which was basically double my initial budget. But I think I'll need it, and it's going to last me years (hopefully). Ordered from AppVision with a 15% off EOFY code.

[Martin72]

I had a DS1054Z, a SDS1104X-E, both good scopes.
But can´t compete against a SDS2104X+ in many ways.
Good decision!

[MathWizard]

I'd love to get the sds2104Xplus, but I wish it was 12bit, and the 12bit HD scopes weren't +4000.

I have a sds1204X-E, so I just learned they can do 16ch's of logic, with an expensive add-on tho. Can you hook it up to the computer and record as much data as would fill your drives ??

And it can do Bode plots.

[Martin72]

Not too long ago, it would have been a dream to get a 12bit scope for under 10000.
Today, people moan that a 12-bitter cost 4000.
The times, they are changing.

I'd love to get the sds2104Xplus, but I wish it was 12bit,

SDS1000X HD/Rigol DHO1000...

[Fungus]

Not too long ago, it would have been a dream to get a 12bit scope for under 10000.
Today, people moan that a 12-bitter cost 4000.
The times, they are changing.

I'd love to get the sds2104Xplus, but I wish it was 12bit,

SDS1000X HD/Rigol DHO1000...

And very soon the Rigol DHO800

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-dho800900-pre-sales-begin/

(which will be the next "game changer"  - for the 12 bit resolution and completely new touch-screen UI at DS1000Z prices).

[Martin72]

Agree to it, in the class of the 7" screen size scopes.

[tautech]

I'd love to get the sds2104Xplus, but I wish it was 12bit, and the 12bit HD scopes weren't +4000.

SDS2000X Plus models do have a 10 bit mode however it's restricted to 100 MHz.

I have a sds1204X-E, so I just learned they can do 16ch's of logic, with an expensive add-on tho. Can you hook it up to the computer and record as much data as would fill your drives ??

Not sure the recently added Logging feature works with LA....I wouldn't think so but nevertheless it's something I need check.

And it can do Bode plots.

All recent Siglent models can too excepting the 2ch SDS1202X-E.

[Martin72]

Bode plot is one of the major decision points for me - No bode, no scope for Martin...

[Fungus]

Agree to it, in the class of the 7" screen size scopes.

Yeah, it has a smaller screen than the HDO1000.

[Professzore]

Hi,

Bode plot is one of the major decision points for me - No bode, no scope for Martin...

Which of the entry-level (4 channels, 1000 MHz or around, price around/under 1500 usd/eur) scopes offers bode plot?

Thanks!

[2N3055]

Hi,

Bode plot is one of the major decision points for me - No bode, no scope for Martin...

Which of the entry-level (4 channels, 1000 MHz or around, price around/under 1500 usd/eur) scopes offers bode plot?

Thanks!

1000MHz ? as in 1GHz?

[Martin72]

Which of the entry-level (4 channels, 1000 MHz or around, price around/under 1500 usd/eur) scopes offers bode plot?

Siglent SDS1000X-E (4ch)
Siglent SDS2000X-plus
Siglent SDS1000X-HD
Rigol MSO5000

AFAIK...

[Fungus]

The cheap Siglents need an external Siggen.

(Siglent, of course..)

[tautech]

The cheap Siglents need an external Siggen.

(Siglent, of course..)

It seems you have not been observant ......
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-and-sds1204x-e-bode-plot-with-non-siglent-awg/

Siglent AWG's OTOH are plug and play for Bode plot with all Siglent DSO's that support it.

[Performa01]

Which of the entry-level (4 channels, 1000 MHz or around, price around/under 1500 usd/eur) scopes offers bode plot?

Siglent SDS1000X-E (4ch)
Siglent SDS2000X-plus
Siglent SDS1000X-HD
Rigol MSO5000

AFAIK...

Maybe you should also mention that Siglent were the first to introduce Bode Plot in late 2017 with the SDS1004X-E series.

And it was (and still is) an ambitious feature, three channels in parallel (so you could trace a three-way crossover network for a speaker system in a single step), up to 120 MHz, AGC, frequency selective detector and consequently more than 100 dB dynamic range.

The competition eventually followed suit, but most of their "me too" implementations are nothing to write home about in comparison.

[nctnico]

No, Keysight pioneered bode plotting. Siglent copied it quickly. But according to Rudi's review, bode plot works super slow on Siglent scopes compared to R&S and Keysight (minutes versus tens of seconds). So that is something to consider if you want to adjust something which needs several sweeps (or just want bode plot to work at a reasonable speed). And it is not like the dynamic range on other oscilloscopes is bad. My R&S scope has a dynamic range of around 90dB which is perfectly useable.

[2N3055]

No, Keysight pioneered bode plotting. Siglent copied it quickly. But according to Rudi's review, bode plot works super slow on Siglent scopes compared to R&S and Keysight (minutes versus tens of seconds). So that is something to consider if you want to adjust something which needs several sweeps (or just want bode plot to work at a reasonable speed). And it is not like the dynamic range on other oscilloscopes is bad. My R&S scope has a dynamic range of around 90dB which is perfectly useable.

"Your scope" is RTM3104 that cost as much as 15 times as scopes being discussed here.... Just saying...
Rudi's review also found Siglent's FRA had many features other don't have and that it measures with very good accuracy....
As far as speed goes, my (also 10kUSD + machine)is faster than Siglent, but still needs 30-40 seconds to run sweep with any accuracy.
That is not what I would call interactive speed.. R&S RTx2000/3000/4000 is not any better than that..

There is a reason why people shell out so much money for BODE100.. It can do 5-10 sweeps PER SECOND............. Now that is interactive...

As for FRA, Keysight unveiled it in december of 2017 of their "low cost" 1000X series and to 3000T. Previous models did not have any.
Siglent unveiled their BODE analysis 2 months later. Meaning it was already fully developed and tested to production and was awaiting FW release scheduling... It was not reaction to Keysight...

[nctnico]

No, Keysight pioneered bode plotting. Siglent copied it quickly. But according to Rudi's review, bode plot works super slow on Siglent scopes compared to R&S and Keysight (minutes versus tens of seconds). So that is something to consider if you want to adjust something which needs several sweeps (or just want bode plot to work at a reasonable speed). And it is not like the dynamic range on other oscilloscopes is bad. My R&S scope has a dynamic range of around 90dB which is perfectly useable.

"Your scope" is RTM3104 that cost as much as 15 times as scopes being discussed here.... Just saying...
Rudi's review also found Siglent's FRA had many features other don't have and that it measures with very good accuracy....
As far as speed goes, my (also 10kUSD + machine)is faster than Siglent, but still needs 30-40 seconds to run sweep with any accuracy.
That is not what I would call interactive speed.. R&S RTx2000/3000/4000 is not any better than that..

The point is not a price comparison but just to note that there are other factors to consider and Siglent is not the only manufacturer out there that has bode plotting. It is actually rather interesting that none of the Siglent fan crowd has ever commented on the slowness of Siglent's FRA. Either they didn't want to tell or just don't know any better. Rudi's comparison where it comes to the time needed to do a sweep came as a total -shocking- surprise to me!

[Martin72]

The "speed" of the bodeplot was often noticed, also and even more so by the "fans", because they tried it out.
Was last in the feature thread a topic.

[2N3055]

No, Keysight pioneered bode plotting. Siglent copied it quickly. But according to Rudi's review, bode plot works super slow on Siglent scopes compared to R&S and Keysight (minutes versus tens of seconds). So that is something to consider if you want to adjust something which needs several sweeps (or just want bode plot to work at a reasonable speed). And it is not like the dynamic range on other oscilloscopes is bad. My R&S scope has a dynamic range of around 90dB which is perfectly useable.

"Your scope" is RTM3104 that cost as much as 15 times as scopes being discussed here.... Just saying...
Rudi's review also found Siglent's FRA had many features other don't have and that it measures with very good accuracy....
As far as speed goes, my (also 10kUSD + machine)is faster than Siglent, but still needs 30-40 seconds to run sweep with any accuracy.
That is not what I would call interactive speed.. R&S RTx2000/3000/4000 is not any better than that..

The point is not a price comparison but just to note that there are other factors to consider and Siglent is not the only manufacturer out there that has bode plotting. It is actually rather interesting that none of the Siglent fan crowd has ever commented on the slowness of Siglent's FRA. Either they didn't want to tell or just don't know any better. Rudi's comparison where it comes to the time needed to do a sweep came as a total -shocking- surprise to me!

Fact that Siglent FRA is slower than R&S and Keysight is know fact, widely publicized and myself personally did tests and confirmed it is slower, on SDS2000X HD for instance..

Price comparison is always a point... We are discussing 1000 series devices here., specifically.
It appears that 15x price difference does go a long way as far as patience to wait 30 more seconds for result.
And as I say, BODE II on Siglent has multichannel (not available by anybody else regardless of speed) and several automated measurements..

It is not perfect (I wish it was faster..) but measures well, with good precision and dynamic range. Speed is apparently not a dealbreaker here..

Siglent is aware of speed difference. It remains to see if they can optimize something or to enable user to make less precise but faster "orientational" measurements  for those that prefer speed over accuracy, detail and resilience. So far they made hundreds of optimizations based on user feedback, where it was realistically possible. If this is, future will tell.

[mawyatt]

We've used the Siglent Bode function often, and have also reported it's slow, real slow (we are not a fanboy)!! With this in mind it does give superb results as mentioned by 2N3055, slow yes, but accurate with a very wide dynamic range if utilized properly by someone that understands how the Bode function operates within the DSO.

If getting the correct, accurate answers is important, one can often overlook the speed!!

We've utilized the Bode function on things as obscure as the complex transfer function of a Peltz Oscillator under Injection Locking which is quite a complex interaction, and superbly rendered by the Siglent Bode function. Honestly, still amazed that anything could produce these stunning results, much less a modest DSO with Bode function!! Believe me we've seen some pretty amazing measurements over our career, and this ranks right up there with some of the best we've experienced

I mean, showing the complex nature of the oscillator's non-linear injection phase and amplitude response with the hysteresis memory effects, check out figure 4 of the Razavi paper (2nd below), please study this and the other references (be sure to look up Adler's original IEEE paper) to get a "feel" for what's going on here, amazing IMO 

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/injection-locked-peltz-oscillator-with-bode-analysis/msg4424434/#msg4424434

http://www.seas.ucla.edu/brweb/papers/Journals/RSep04.pdf

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/simple-sinusoidal-oscillators/

Fun stuff indeed

Best,