Old'ish vs New'ish test equipment

[Finderbinder]

Is there a serious reason to pack valuable space with a high level but bulky and heavy old benchtop test equipment (like 90' HP, Agilent, Keithley and so on)?    Besides that, old equipment have a less informative displays, consumes more electricity, is less compatible with nowadays technologies.
Finally mentally it makes you feel stuck in the past 
Or... I am wrong? 

[tautech]

Is there a serious reason to pack valuable space with a high level but bulky and heavy old benchtop test equipment (like 90' HP, Agilent, Keithley and so on)?    Besides that, old equipment have a less informative displays, consumes more electricity, is less compatible with nowadays technologies.
Finally mentally it makes you feel stuck in the past 
Or... I am wrong? 

You are not.

Very few of the old classics can't be well smacked by the better Asian stuff and it's wise to have double up of the old classics to keep them going.
Very soon one runs out of space..... 

Been there done that and got them out of my system. 

[bdunham7]

Is there a serious reason to pack valuable space with a high level but bulky and heavy old benchtop test equipment (like 90' HP, Agilent, Keithley and so on)?    Besides that, old equipment have a less informative displays, consumes more electricity, is less compatible with nowadays technologies.
Finally mentally it makes you feel stuck in the past 
Or... I am wrong? 

It kinda sorta depends on what you are doing and what equipment you are talking about....

[tggzzz]

Is there a serious reason to pack valuable space with a high level but bulky and heavy old benchtop test equipment (like 90' HP, Agilent, Keithley and so on)?    Besides that, old equipment have a less informative displays, consumes more electricity, is less compatible with nowadays technologies.
Finally mentally it makes you feel stuck in the past 
Or... I am wrong? 

Yes, you are right. Repeat: no you are wrong.

It all depends on your objectives and constraints - and without clearly articulating those your question has no simple answer.

If you can afford (money, timescale, reliability, bugfixes) to buy everything you need new, then that is a good option.

If you are already familiar with a working and adequate piece of equipment, then not buying something else is a good option.

If you can't afford everything new, then buying old working equipment can be a good option.

If you sell modern Asian test equipment as a business, then persuading others to buy new Asian test equipment makes sense. (No names, no pack drill ) But any such person trying to persuade other people that old equipment is inappropriate because it is old is, to be charitable, being disingenuous.

Understanding equipment old or new, and learning how to use it corrrectly and to good purpose is something all engineers should know how to do. Technicians may not need that skill, and may simply have to do as they are told, without needing to understand. Amateurs and hobbyists can enjoy settling with equipment.

So, which category fits you?

[Finderbinder]

If you can afford (money, timescale, reliability, bugfixes) to buy everything you need new, then that is a good option.

Amateurs and hobbyists can enjoy settling with equipment.

So, which category fits you?

Maybe new Chinese equipment, but 5-10 years old branded ones (compare to 30 years old stuff).

My job is to repair electronics, mainly TVs, but other consumer stuff too. Indeed I don't badly need any serious equipment to get job done, but as a techie a like to use one or another.
BTW I didn't miss a thermal camera in electronics repair, but when I got one and used, I can't imagine not having it 

bdunham7 asked:
"It kinda sorta depends on what you are doing and what equipment you are talking about...."

I have in mind rack mountable cased equipment - famous 3458A, power supplies, electronic loads, signal generators, LCR meters...

[switchabl]

Is there a serious reason to pack valuable space with a high level but bulky and heavy old benchtop test equipment (like 90' HP, Agilent, Keithley and so on)?    Besides that, old equipment have a less informative displays, consumes more electricity, is less compatible with nowadays technologies.
Finally mentally it makes you feel stuck in the past 
Or... I am wrong? 

I avoid the old, boat-anchor CRT stuff for various reasons, most importantly I don't have the space. But the 90s (and 00s) equipment you mention usually isn't so bad in that respect. I guess in the end it comes down to budget?

Now in some cases you can get a competitively priced instrument from China and that may or may not be a good alternative for you (nope, not going there  ). But look up the price of a new
- RF signal generator
- spectrum analyzer > 3 GHz
- oscilloscope > 500 MHz
- frequency counter
- power meter
- SMU
...
from any brand.

E.g. I have an old E4418A power meter that doesn't have a nice modern UI (it actually has a graphical LCD and it is terrible). But it works fine and it probably cost me around 200€ (sans power sensors) vs. 7000€ for a shiny new N1913A that basically does the same thing. So until I win the lottery, I'm indeed stuck in the past with old Agilent, Keithley, R&S etc. equipment at home. I don't mind, I think it's amazing what you can get these days without spending a fortune (new or used).

[DaJMasta]

I don't have much 'vintage' stuff on my bench because it's generally bigger, heavier, less efficient, less featured, etc., but there are good reasons to keep the older stuff, especially as a hobbyist.  Part of it is the idea of restoring older equipment - both for the equipment and for the experience of doing it yourself - is an appealing one, and especially with the tendency towards publishing less and less service information, is often easier to actually do with older equipment.  Then usually, hobby usage is not pushing the limits of measurement 20-50 years ago, so older gear is up for the task, so if you can get it for a cheaper price than modern stuff, you can either save money or get more equipment (and we all know it's usually the latter).  Then for some applications, there are actually fewer dedicated options among new equipment - not because new techniques can't do it, but because it's been rolled in as a software option to something else and the demand for the task has gone down - sometimes having a dedicated meter to tell you the thing you want is easier/simpler/cheaper than finding a modern instrument that happens to have the option you need for that measurement.

Then you get to build quality, and while test gear is generally built to a more lasting standard than consumer gear, getting higher end older gear for a similar price to the lower end new gear often has a better longevity proposition - maybe it needs work now that the new won't, but it's often over-engineered to a degree deemed unnecessary in more modern, mid to low end gear, which pays dividends in long term stability, repairability, durability, or just ease of use (though I am all for manufacturers actually paying attention to UI innovations from others and not just throwing something 'functional' in there).  There's also the fact that a lot of hobbyists are people who have gotten to the point in their life where they have more disposable income and time on their hands, and they remember working with (or lusting after) equipment that's dated by today's expectations.  If it's something you always wanted or something you're already familiar with using, those are both good reasons to go with the older gear over the new.

Of course, then there's also the value of systems integration and monitoring through more modern interfaces, the ability to find replacement parts, the extra features, and especially, the built in analysis options found on more modern stuff thanks to the ubiquitous nature of memory and processing power now - reasons for me to avoid a lot of stuff pre mid-90s or so for my own use, but there's a reasonable argument to be made for working on and with older equipment.

[nctnico]

If you can afford (money, timescale, reliability, bugfixes) to buy everything you need new, then that is a good option.

Amateurs and hobbyists can enjoy settling with equipment.

So, which category fits you?

Maybe new Chinese equipment, but 5-10 years old branded ones (compare to 30 years old stuff).

5-10 years old equipment from an A-brand wins hands down in my experience. There is a lot of value in pedigree; knowing how to build test equipment so it actually works as intended without nasty surprises. Since I got an ethernet GPIB adapter, not having a USB port for screendumps on older equipment is no longer a problem.

[Electro Detective]

My job is to repair electronics, mainly TVs, but other consumer stuff too. Indeed I don't badly need any serious equipment to get job done, but as a techie a like to use one or another.

BTW I didn't miss a thermal camera in electronics repair, but when I got one and used, I can't imagine not having it 

The one time where there can't be too much debate on a piece of troubleshooting gear like a thermal camera/imager,  that's a must buy for me (SOON) 

and save bundles of cash by just using all the other operational test equipment, be it oldish or last years newish, to compensate for the purchase.

 i.e. if I had to choose one item to blow dough on and celebrate 'new toy day' 
that will most likely pay for itself on a handful of PITA diagnose tasks, it would have to be a thermal camera/imager at under $1000,

from a local seller and with boatloads of warranty   

[bdunham7]

I have in mind rack mountable cased equipment - famous 3458A, power supplies, electronic loads, signal generators, LCR meters...

Some of those old 'boat anchors' will have capabilties that are unaffordable for a hobbyist or even a TV repairman (actually I'm pretty sure as a hobbyist I can afford far more than could be justified for TV repair). 

Sure the 3458A is large, but what would you use in its place? 

Modern power supplies might seem nicer, but older models may be more durable or in some cases have features like 4-quadrant safe operation that those nice new Chinese models don't. 

Once you get into things like SMUs, electronic loads and bench LCR meters, I'd say if you can afford new, go for it.  However, I don't really get your statement about 'compatibility with today's technologies' unless you are talking about device communications like GPIB and floppy drives vs USB ports. 

[Finderbinder]

However, I don't really get your statement about 'compatibility with today's technologies' unless you are talking about device communications like GPIB and floppy drives vs USB ports.

Exactly. Old communications are useless today. Informative displays are also big advantage of modern equipment (you can see some related parameters at once, no need to fiddle around).

[alm]

Exactly. Old communications are useless today. Informative displays are also big advantage of modern equipment (you can see some related parameters at once, no need to fiddle around).

You're right for consumer equipment, like a camera with Firewire or a parallel port ZIP drive. Test equipment is unique in that the ubiquitous legacy interface GPIB/HPIB/IEEE488 is still well supported, in software and hardware, by both commercial offerings and hobbyist offerings. For example there's an Arduino sketch. You can easily hook up a GPIB instrument to ethernet using VXI-11 and it will be transparently supported by VISA. I'd argue this is easier than networking an USBTMC-only instrument.

The only thing missing is a buggy Windows application to control it . But there are alternatives like Test Controller.

[AVGresponding]

I paid less than £200 (shipped!) for my 1GHz Tek 784C. Good luck finding a new 1 GHz scope for that money... Likewise all the rest of my TE, including Fluke, Keithley, HPAK DMMs, both bench and handheld, sig gens, power supplies etc. As has been mentioned, GPIB and variants are still well supported, and those don't try to phone home when you plug them into your network...

Even if I won the lottery I wouldn't fill a lab with brand new gear, either from the old names or the new ones, but that suits my use case. Yours is different, so you should choose what gear suits it best. When you're using it in a business, you want good, fast warranty support, since down-time is costing you money.

[nctnico]

The one time where there can't be too much debate on a piece of troubleshooting gear like a thermal camera/imager,  that's a must buy for me (SOON) 

that will most likely pay for itself on a handful of PITA diagnose tasks, it would have to be a thermal camera/imager at under $1000,

I have a Flir C2 that works fine for troubleshooting. Bought it with a decent discount from Toploser but even at full price it is well worth the money. I have found many problems with it in minutes instead of hours.

[AFTORF]

In RF and microwave, old test equipement are cheaper, easy to repair (many with discrete components without SMD) and real complete service manuals are available on the Web.

[precaud]

For me it comes down to capabilities and budget.
Find me a new Chinese swept VNA/FRA with isolated inputs, built-in splitter, with more than two input ranges.
Find me a new Chinese variable frequency LCR/LCZ meter with that can measure the impedance of in-circuit DC sources up to +-40V.

AFAIK, they don't exist.

[Bud]

GPIB and variants are still well supported, and those don't try to phone home when you plug them into your network...

Keysight I/O Libraries do.

[bdunham7]

Exactly. Old communications are useless today. Informative displays are also big advantage of modern equipment (you can see some related parameters at once, no need to fiddle around).

Can you be specific, as in examples?  Floppies have faded for sure, but I have "older" equipment that uses things like GPIB, RS232 and CF cards.  Some of those give me capabilities that otherwise would be wildly unaffordable.  And dealing with those old systems takes an extra step, but once you are set up it just works.  As a bonus, some of that old equipment is easier and faster to operate--2 second boot times and 1 button push for any function, things like that.

[mendip_discovery]

In some cases, the new kit is made by people who interpret the things made by greybeards but with the added issue of sales droids who ask for daft stuff like touch screens and the purchasing department trying to get the price down. So new gear isn't always as good.

Old gear suffers from age etc but some of it is just affordable.

Also, it is much like the desire for people to own vintage vehicles, the way they work is part of the fun/challenge of owning them.

[0culus]

O-scopes? Sure, why not. At the other end of the expense spectrum, how about a microwave network analyzer covering 26.5 GHz? Considering a NEW one likely costs at least twice what my house did, I'll stick with my 8510C...not to mention the far east cheap brands don't even offer something in that space AFAIK.

I would also note that 40 and 50 GHz capable test sets for the 8510 are getting hard to find because small shops with low budgets are buying them up to get in on the 5G FR2 bandwagon without blowing a few million yankee bux.

[switchabl]

As a bonus, some of that old equipment is easier and faster to operate--2 second boot times and 1 button push for any function, things like that.

To be fair, that period (90s, and also early 00s) has also produced PC-based test equipment that took 15 minutes to boot (I'm not even exaggerating) and was basically unusable without a mouse. The situation has certainly improved with faster PCs and touchscreen UIs these days.

[tautech]

O-scopes? Sure, why not. At the other end of the expense spectrum, how about a microwave network analyzer covering 26.5 GHz? Considering a NEW one likely costs at least twice what my house did, I'll stick with my 8510C...not to mention the far east cheap brands don't even offer something in that space AFAIK.

8.5 GHz 4 port no problem....have one but not sure if I'll splash out on the 26.5 GHz one coming soon. 

[james_s]

It totally depends on what you're doing and what your budget is. I like old high end gear, it's so nicely built, it feels good to use, I enjoy collecting it and tinkering with it, there's something I just really dislike about cheap Chinese equipment, it's fine for hobby use but I don't find it to be a joy to own or use. I have a 1GHz 4 channel CRT based scope, it's bulky and heavy but it was affordable, about the price of a modern 200MHz scope from one of the cheap brands. There is no way I could justify purchase of a modern replacement with comparable performance. Space is limited but not *that* tight for me and being a hobbyist collecting and playing with the old gear is a hobby in itself, it doesn't have to pay the bills.

[tautech]

In some cases, the new kit is made by people who interpret the things made by greybeards but with the added issue of sales droids who ask for daft stuff like touch screens and the purchasing department trying to get the price down. So new gear isn't always as good.

You'd never know until you spend some time with it. 

There is much UI benefit from having a mouse capable UI and touch screens are only a simple progression of that where if you really don't like them or need them you can turn it to OFF and use a mouse.
Now quite used to them, for fastest slickest UI performance I now use all 3 UI inputs, front panel, mouse and touch.
YMMV

Also, it is much like the desire for people to own vintage vehicles, the way they work is part of the fun/challenge of owning them.

Certainly, however when their reliability impacts on the pursuit of your electronics hobby something has to give where now after not using a CRO for nearing 15 years you are welcome to one as one will never grace my bench again. Last year I moved 4 boat anchors onto members here to return some valuable shed shelf space. 

[Tomorokoshi]

For me it comes down to capabilities and budget.
Find me a new Chinese swept VNA/FRA with isolated inputs, built-in splitter, with more than two input ranges.
Find me a new Chinese variable frequency LCR/LCZ meter with that can measure the impedance of in-circuit DC sources up to +-40V.

AFAIK, they don't exist.

Yes, I'm quite fond of my HP 4194A.