Author Topic: Old analog or modern digital oscilloscope for low budget. Need advice.  (Read 29478 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline T@llerTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 13
  • Country: ua
Hello everyone.

I would like to acquire oscilloscope for my home experiments\hobby. Need advice which one\type will be better.

So. Usually I work with "digital" signals (square wave signal). "Analog" - rarely. The highest frequency that I ever faced - 50-60 Mhz. I don't need high precise because usually I just want to see what is going on in some point in electronic board.

I have started looking around price 100$. Have a low budget for "toy".
In this price I found several models analog and digital scopes that I guess could be interested.

Analog:
Tektronix 2225(50MHz),2235(100MHz).
Ez Digital OS-5060(60MHZ).

Digital:
USB Hantek\Intrustar 60-70MHz bandwith. 
 
I have experience with analog scopes but not digital. Actually I prefer analog scope but In the other hand -  analog scopes that I listed is very old. May be better not waste time and buy USB digital ?


Thanks.



« Last Edit: December 25, 2016, 12:23:16 pm by T@ller »
 

Offline MrWolf

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 209
  • Country: ee
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2016, 05:36:21 pm »
If you go USB try to find used or discounted PicoScope. It has turned out they have skipped some shortcuts that can be found in some low-end scopes:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/testing-dso-auto-measurements-accuracy-across-timebases/
If you decide to go for new non-Pico USB - try to find a a way to test it according to same procedure and post the test to benefit others also. If it does not pass the test you will mis out on lot of stuff that can be done on DSO, compared to basic CRO. For example looking at 2 waves with wildly different frequencies and get accurate automated stats on both. Or just looking at one wave with precise freq but long period.
 

Offline Gyro

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9718
  • Country: gb
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2016, 05:46:51 pm »
This current thread should help you as it covers the same question and price band...  ;)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/best-oscilloscope-under-$100-cad/

You may have a bit more budget depending on which $

EDIT: Link corrected, thank you nctnico!
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 07:27:20 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27312
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2016, 06:19:59 pm »
This current thread should help you as it covers the same question and price band...  ;)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/best-oscilloscope-under-$100-cad/

You may have a bit more budget depending on which $

EDIT: Sorry, can't get the link to work because it contains a $ symbol... Unless someone is cleverer than me can do it.  Look in the Beginners section for "best-oscilloscope-under-$100-cad"
FFS: use the 'insert hyperlink' button!  |O
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/best-oscilloscope-under-$100-cad/
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Gyro

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9718
  • Country: gb
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2016, 06:33:09 pm »
Thank you nctnico, at least I know now!  >:(
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16885
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2016, 07:31:40 am »
The Tektronix 2225 and 2235 are good choices for a limited budget however I do not recommend an oscilloscope that old unless you are confident in your ability to repair and maintain it or have a friend who can help you out.

If you are considering a 2235, then also look for a 2230 or 2232 and if a single timebase is acceptable, also the 2221 and 2221A.  They are all based on the 2235 but can operate as digital storage oscilloscope and can sometimes be found for about the same price.  Their extra complexity however makes the warning above about being prepared to repair and maintain them even more important.
 

Offline BravoV

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7547
  • Country: 00
  • +++ ATH1
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2016, 07:58:59 am »
+1 on David Hess suggestion on old scope.  :-+

Tons of this so called "expert" advises sometimes never consider the OP have to deal with a broken "OLD" scope and with high probability that it can not be fixed.

If budget allowed, DO NOT buy old/used scope without warranty if you don't have enough skill/knowledge ... AND ... adequate tools, which sometimes need ANOTHER WORKING SCOPE to fix it.

Hell, even you have the time, energy, knowledge, skills and tools, still there is NO guarantee that you can fix it, if the broken part is an unobtainium chip.  :palm:

The appetite for old exotic analog scope is only makes sense, if you already have a working scope, and it will be the 2nd scope.

Why risk it ?  :-// A toy scope is still much-much better than an exotic GHz analog scope, but broken.

My 2 resistors worth.

Offline tggzzz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19936
  • Country: gb
  • Numbers, not adjectives
    • Having fun doing more, with less
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2016, 10:03:05 am »
"Digital debugging" consists of primarily three activities. Firstly making sure that the analogue signal (because all signals above femtoamp level are  analogue signals) will be correctly interpreted by the receiver as a digital signal - i.e. ensuring "signal integrity".  Secondly, once you have valid digital signals, you often need to see the precise relationship between them, especially ensuring setup and hold times are correct. Finally, sometimes you need interpret the digital signals, e.g. to determine a count or a FSM state or the contents of a serial message.

Signal integrity requires bandwidth above all else, coupled with good probing technique. 100MHz is barely adequate for modern logic.

Timing relationship also requires bandwidth, but also requires >=2 input channels (2 is often sufficient).

Interpretation is frequently best done with digital tools, not oscilloscopes. Logic analysers for wide busses, "Bus Pirate" for many common protocols, and even printf() statements.

The single area where digital storage scopes have a USP is for slow and single-shot events.

My preference is: a working old scope with >250MHz bandwidth, plus a Digilent Analog Discovery for slow single-shot slow events (also has a waveform generator, logic generator, logic analyser), plus printf() statements. To that must be added imagination, understanding, and a disciplined approach to design and debugging :)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16885
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2016, 07:29:37 am »
If budget allowed, DO NOT buy old/used scope without warranty if you don't have enough skill/knowledge ... AND ... adequate tools, which sometimes need ANOTHER WORKING SCOPE to fix it.

Hell, even you have the time, energy, knowledge, skills and tools, still there is NO guarantee that you can fix it, if the broken part is an unobtainium chip.  :palm:

The appetite for old exotic analog scope is only makes sense, if you already have a working scope, and it will be the 2nd scope.

I agree completely with tggzzz.  Signal integrity and timing can almost always be handled by an analog oscilloscope and bandwidth is more important than digital storage or extra features.  I think 200 MHz is ideal because probing becomes difficult above that but I do almost all my work with a 100 MHz oscilloscope.  Decoding can be done on an analog oscilloscope under certain conditions as well with a little bit of extra work; setup the pattern to be decoded so it repeats.  The one common exception would be detecting rare events like metastability and some timing violations.

A known working analog oscilloscope like one of the ones I discussed is a pretty low risk but how would anybody who lacks experience confidently know how to verify that they are operating correctly?  And what if you cannot inspect the oscilloscope before purchasing which will be common with online sales?

The first DSO that I bought for myself was a 2230 for $80 (1) but I already had a couple of other analog oscilloscopes I could use to repair it if necessary and a lot of electronics experience.  Actually, I bought two 2230s with one for $80 and another for $60 thinking that between the two of them, I could get one working.  As it ended up, one worked fine and the other was repairable although it took more than a month to track down the exact problem.  Between the two, I effectively have a 4 channel 100 MHz DSO with separate dual delayed timebases which comes in very handy sometimes.

I get a lot of use out of my slow CRT digital storage oscilloscopes for low repetition rate things like power supply startup and shutdown.  It is very rare than I need "real time" sampling sufficient for a 100 MHz bandwidth or higher; I would rather have equivalent time sampling at 2 GS/s for accurate transient response.

(1) At the time, I evaluated the Rigol DS1000D and DS1000E series and after talking with their customer support, concluded that they make toys.  I still think that is the case.
 

Offline tggzzz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19936
  • Country: gb
  • Numbers, not adjectives
    • Having fun doing more, with less
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2016, 09:19:31 am »
I agree with the statements I've snipped.

I get a lot of use out of my slow CRT digital storage oscilloscopes for low repetition rate things like power supply startup and shutdown. 

Yes :( I had a PSU startup problem where I could do one test every 6 hours. The problem was in the startup components, and once started they would work for the next 6 hours!

Quote
It is very rare than I need "real time" sampling sufficient for a 100 MHz bandwidth or higher; I would rather have equivalent time sampling at 2 GS/s for accurate transient response.

Yes again. I haven't heard a significant number of use cases on this forum for "high" bandwidth RTS, but ETS is very useful.

The only addition I will make to my statement about the Digilent Analog Discovery is that the combination of AWG, scope and post processing gives the ability to plot phase-frequency response diagrams in various forms; great for filter/amplifier analysis and control-loop analysis. The abiility to script tests and measurements adds the potential for automating repetitive tasks.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline ebclr

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2329
  • Country: 00
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2016, 11:21:53 am »
Don't buy old osciloscopes, is the path for pain, All new low bandwitch < 100Mhz are better than old ones, even the chinese ones, Old scopes can be a deal only on the > 500Mhz specs, but Old means OLD you get what you paid for. If you are a begginer it's high recomended to start with a cheap new scope like hanteck, picoscope, owon usb or even better rigold DS1054z with 4 chanelss
 

Offline T@llerTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 13
  • Country: ua
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2016, 01:08:56 pm »
Thanks to all.

I would prefer working with old analog scope. But considering all specific things - buying new digital simple oscilloscope will be more reasonable.  :-\

Now I dont see any interesting old analog scope on ebay.
For example Tek 2235 and in state "AS IS" can costs up to 200$. Tek 2225 up to 150$.
 
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 01:41:27 pm by T@ller »
 

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16885
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2016, 03:36:25 pm »
Now I dont see any interesting old analog scope on ebay.
For example Tek 2235 and in state "AS IS" can costs up to 200$. Tek 2225 up to 150$.

Those in the US have a much easier time finding old analog oscilloscopes in good condition for low prices.  The difficulty of doing this in Europe and probably even more so in eastern Europe make a new even if low quality Chinese DSO more desirable.  You have to cut the coat to fit the cloth.

Even so, I watched Ebay for a couple of months making notes of what models sold for how much before picking up my 2230s for less than $100 each.
 


Offline T@llerTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 13
  • Country: ua
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 07:09:27 pm by T@ller »
 


Offline Gyro

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9718
  • Country: gb
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2016, 07:37:27 pm »
Well it's not a Tek so probably won't be the same build quality. At 60MHz it shouldn't use any custom silicon. It Looks as if EZ-Digital is a Korean brand.

Specs are here: http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/Products/ProdDS/2145271.pdf

An important factor is whether you can find a service manual.

You would also need to factor in the cost of a pair of scope probes.

EDIT: Missing button caps on Channel 2.

EDIT1: Manual, but only includes block diagram: http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/Products/ProdDS/2145262%20UsersManual.pdf
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 07:56:36 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline T@llerTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 13
  • Country: ua
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2016, 07:51:41 pm »
Gyro

Yes, I agree Tek is maybe better

About probes - not a problem here.  Of cource in case that any probes with BNC connector are compatible.
 

Offline Gyro

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9718
  • Country: gb
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2016, 08:29:25 pm »
(I added the manual link for the EZ scope to my last reply, it only includes an unreadable block diagram, no service info)

The Instek one you added has higher bandwidth (100MHz vs 60MHz) higher sensitivity max (2mV vs 5mV/div) Input limit is also 400V vs 250V (though that shouldn't be an issue if you are using your x10 scope probes correctly!).

The Instek also has readouts and lists SMD technology as one of it's benefits (It will have some digital stuff inside). Both could either be a benefit or issue if you need to fix it! The seller seems to have several of these, I don't know whether that gives a higher chance of a fully working one.  :-\

In other things they both appear to have what you would expect in an analogue scope, dual timebase, A+B with Ch2 invert for differential measurement, Z mod. etc.

Here's a link to the GW Instek specs: http://www.test.it/sitonew/Specifiche%20strumenti/INSTEK/GOS-6112-6103-6103C.pdf. Given the added complexity it's probably more important that you locate a service manual for this one.

None of this helps with your fundamental Analogue vs Digital question of course!


EDIT: Manual link - only block diagram again! http://www.stantronic.co.uk/GOS-6112.html
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 08:41:35 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline gnavigator1007

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 374
  • Country: us
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2016, 08:48:59 pm »
The Instek one you added has higher bandwidth (100MHz vs 60MHz) higher sensitivity max (2mV vs 5mV/div) Input limit is also 400V vs 250V (though that shouldn't be an issue if you are using your x10 scope probes correctly!).

The Instek also has readouts and lists SMD technology as one of it's benefits (It will have some digital stuff inside). Both could either be a benefit or issue if you need to fix it! The seller seems to have several of these, I don't know whether that gives a higher chance of a fully working one.  :-\

I suspect the gos-6112 came from the ITT Tech auction a couple weeks ago. They had many hundreds of these available. I ended up with a few myself and will say everything I won at this auction was in full working order. If you are interested in the Instek you may want to wait a bit. I know many of these scopes sold for as little as $1 and a better price is likely to come along.
 

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16885
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2016, 04:25:20 am »
Thanks. I did not pay attention for that scopes. Is it more reliable than 2225\35 ?

As far as I understood this scope does not work and lost two knobs.  ???

The description says it is missing the variable knobs and the photo does show that.  I would be more worried about the oscilloscope's questionable history than the missing variable knobs.

The TAS series are newer than the 22xx and 24xx series and they are suppose to be designed for reliability but they are also more difficult to repair if there is a problem if only because their service documentation is not as complete.
 

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16885
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2016, 04:27:46 am »
Input limit is also 400V vs 250V (though that shouldn't be an issue if you are using your x10 scope probes correctly!).

Be very careful about using x10 probes to divide an input signal down to within the overload range of the oscilloscope.  Since they rely on the oscilloscope's 1 megohm input resistance, if the oscilloscope coupling is set to AC, the DC level will be applied to the oscilloscope input without attenuation.  This is a more common problem with x100 probes.
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2055
  • Country: us
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2016, 04:59:15 am »
Hmm... could you explain that a little more, please? Seems like an important topic to understand...

Tek 2215a input circuitry, for reference:
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline T@llerTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 13
  • Country: ua
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2016, 11:38:42 am »

I suspect the gos-6112 came from the ITT Tech auction a couple weeks ago. They had many hundreds of these available...


Interesting information. There is one auction .  :)
Look:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-60-GW-Instek-GOS-6112-2-Channel-100MHz-Curser-Readout-Analog-Oscilloscope-NR-/152363765934?hash=item23799690ae:g:5agAAOSwImRYWY8-




By the way. Also there is several listings for digital scope "GW INSTEK GDS-2102 Oscilloscope 2 Analogue 100 MHz 1 GSPS 25 kpts 3.5 ns"  - quite interesting.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GW-INSTEK-GDS-2102-Oscilloscope-2-Analogue-100-MHz-1-GSPS-25-kpts-3-5-ns-/201758279449?hash=item2ef9bb0719:g:h1IAAOSw241YXFu8
 

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16885
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: Old analog or USB oscilloscope. Need advice.
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2016, 12:32:46 pm »
Those GW-Instek oscilloscopes from ITT Tech do look like a good deal except for lack of service documentation.  Of course even with service documentation, their surface mount construction could make maintenance difficult.

Hmm... could you explain that a little more, please? Seems like an important topic to understand...

Tek 2215a input circuitry, for reference:

The Tektronix 2215A illustrates the problem perfectly and is typical for a good design.

A standard x10 probe is just a 9 megohm series resistor with a controlled parallel capacitance so the AC and DC division ratios are the same.  The parrallel input capacitance and 1 megohm input resistance to ground inside the oscilloscope makes up the second part of the divider.

When the oscilloscope input is set to DC coupling, both DC and AC signals are attenuated to 1/10th of their normal value.  But when the oscilloscope input is set to AC coupling which places a capacitor in series with the input, C2 in this case, then the shunt 1 megohm resistor inside the oscilloscope, R3 + R5 in this case, is no longer connected across the input at DC and the coupling capacitor is free to charge to the DC value of the signal through the probe's 9 megohm series resistance *without being attenuated*!  So the probe is no longer attenuating the DC level.

With x10 probes this is usually not a problem because the oscilloscope input and probe input will have the same high voltage rating and users always operate their equipment within the specified bounds.  Yea, right.  But it can be a serious issue with standard x100 probes which will be rated to 1.2 kilovolts or higher.  Setting the oscilloscope input to AC coupling with 1.2 kilovolts applies to a x100 probe will almost certainly cause the input AC coupling capacitor to break down risking damage to the oscilloscope input circuits.

Some x100 and a very few x10 probes include internal shunt resistors to prevent this problem.
 
The following users thanked this post: tautech


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf