Author Topic: Nice, older DSO advice  (Read 20164 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2019, 09:55:40 am »
Also, certified used Keysights on ebay, see the ad on the forum just above!
They take offers and have guaranteed refurbished scopes. They will often through in options too.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2019, 10:52:20 am »
any double digit and more GHz only she the royal majesty can afford them. used SDA 13GHz and 18GHz are still $9K+ way more than most of us can afford, let alone the matching probes. so they are not high bandwidth but high majesty.
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2019, 11:36:14 am »
Indeed. My point is that the older scopes with high samplerates are less suitable as general purpose oscilloscopes.
I wonder what you are doing to require peak detect on a modern scope with sufficient memory and which can’t be done with real-time sampling and triggers if required? Or maybe you just use it because it’s what you are accustomed to?  :-//
It is just ease of use. Switch to roll-mode and try to see if there are narrow pulses. Sure you can use triggers to hunt for narrow pulses but using peak-detect is just quicker because you can see everything in one measurement. Time = money. And in some cases pulses are so narrow versus their duty cycle that you can't see them without peak detect if you want to have the time in between them on screen as well. Think about a vsync pulse for a display interface. All in all I won't buy an oscilloscope for general purpose use if it doesn't have peak-detect.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 11:53:26 am by nctnico »
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2019, 12:30:16 pm »
Indeed. My point is that the older scopes with high samplerates are less suitable as general purpose oscilloscopes.
I wonder what you are doing to require peak detect on a modern scope with sufficient memory and which can’t be done with real-time sampling and triggers if required? Or maybe you just use it because it’s what you are accustomed to?  :-//
It is just ease of use. Switch to roll-mode and try to see if there are narrow pulses. Sure you can use triggers to hunt for narrow pulses but using peak-detect is just quicker because you can see everything in one measurement. Time = money. And in some cases pulses are so narrow versus their duty cycle that you can't see them without peak detect if you want to have the time in between them on screen as well. Think about a vsync pulse for a display interface. All in all I won't buy an oscilloscope for general purpose use if it doesn't have peak-detect.

I also do this and agree with Nctnico on this.  I have some products that have outputs that are changing quite slow, have PWM on them and it is nice to look at general timing while still able to spot glitches, overshoots and such.

Peak detect mode will show you something is there, and then I drill down to that detail. Also, if you have PWM signal that controls the lamp for instance, and you are looking at lamp blinking pattern, with short memory you will soon undersample so much that you will not see proper P-P amplitude. Same with NFC and RFID.. They are generally changing very slowly (modulation and timing between packets) but need at least 50 Ms/sec to still see carrier without undersampling. With peak detect you will see modulation envelope without problem.
 

Offline Mr Nutts

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2019, 12:57:12 pm »
It is just ease of use. Switch to roll-mode and try to see if there are narrow pulses. Sure you can use triggers to hunt for narrow pulses but using peak-detect is just quicker because you can see everything in one measurement. Time = money. And in some cases pulses are so narrow versus their duty cycle that you can't see them without peak detect if you want to have the time in between them on screen as well. Think about a vsync pulse for a display interface. All in all I won't buy an oscilloscope for general purpose use if it doesn't have peak-detect.

I understand but all peak detect tells you is that there is something, the pulse will not resemble the true signal so if you want to do something with it then you need to re-acquire anyways :(
 
On my Agilent Infinum 8064 I could extend the timebase to 6.4ms/div before the sample rate would start dropping enough to affect its analog BW. On my Wavepro I can still go down to 400us/div before the sample rate would drop enough to affect its usable BW :)
 
Just for the sake of it let’s assume a signal that has pulses with 1.6ns rise/fall time (i.e. at 600MHz BW, so. right on the upper analog limit of my Infinum) every 100ms. At 20ms/div the sample rate would drop to 1GHz which leaves me with 300MHz usable BW and a lot of aliasing but I would still see two pulses, spaced exactly at 100ms ;)
 
And this is probably an extreme example as the BW for the pulse itself is right at the scope’s analog BW.  If the pulse flanks are slower (i.e. 5ns) then the analog BW drops and I could extend my timebase even further ;)
 
As to faster, to get the above working all I need to do is press auto-set and then select the long time base. Going into the acquisition setup then selecting peak detect is in no way quicker ;)
 
And while I’d get aliasing the timing information would still be right, but that wouldn’t be the case with peak detect ;)
 
So why do I need peak detect again?


Quote from: 2N3055 link=topic=189150.msg2443050#msg2443050
I also do this and agree with Nctnico on this.  I have some products that have outputs that are changing quite slow, have PWM on them and it is nice to look at general timing while still able to spot glitches, overshoots and such.

Peak detect mode will show you something is there, and then I drill down to that detail. Also, if you have PWM signal that controls the lamp for instance, and you are looking at lamp blinking pattern, with short memory you will soon undersample so much that you will not see proper P-P amplitude. Same with NFC and RFID.. They are generally changing very slowly (modulation and timing between packets) but need at least 50 Ms/sec to still see carrier without undersampling. With peak detect you will see modulation envelope without problem.

Emphasis mine ;)

Maybe the problem is that your scope lacks memory ;)

For example, with my Agilent at 50Msps I could capture 2.56 seconds ;)

Also, what is the question you want to answer?

Is it if the spacing between lamp on and off is right then peak detect won’t show you that :(

If the question is if the PWM signal is within spec then peak detect won’t help you here either :(

If the question is if there are some pwm signals spaced at some distance then peak detect shows you that but so does your scope’s trigger indicator ;)

So what am I missing?  :-//
 

Offline techman-001

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2019, 01:35:12 pm »
any double digit and more GHz only she the royal majesty can afford them. used SDA 13GHz and 18GHz are still $9K+ way more than most of us can afford, let alone the matching probes. so they are not high bandwidth but high majesty.

My 2Cents ...

Yet we spend $9k + on a car or motorbike, things which only co$t us money, get banged up, rust and need endless maintenance.

I think $9k+ for any double digit and more GHz DSO is a utter BARGAIN!

In 1994 I paid $4600 for a demo model HP 54601A 100MHz DSO, with RS232 control module and the "9volt battery powered 'DSO waveform signal board" which is a 6"x6" pcb that outputs a number of real waveforms that analog scopes find hard to see.

That scope is now 25 years old, (a quarter of a century) and works perfectly, it's my 'daily driver' and I still love using it because it operates just like a 'real scope'. As a old timer I just never liked my 300MHz Rigol menu system much, and was never comfortable with it, tho the screen picture was awesome and clear.

The attached picture is one recreated from scope data and sent via serial port to my FreeBSD pc and recreated. When comparing it to the Rigol picture, remember this scope is 25 years old! Also note that although the Rigol pic is far prettier, how does the on screen information usefulness compare to my old HP?

A few areas the HP is better than the Rigol 2072a I used to own, 1) the HP fan is a *lot* quieter, 2) The HP boots up almost instantly to working display, the Rigol was painfully slow going thru stages and beeping at each one.

My advice is if you're planning to spend your life in electronics doing design, buy the MOST EXPENSIVE scope from a American manufacturer reputed for high quality scopes, and avoid cheap junk from China. Eliminate the word "bargain" from your buying mentality. You'll also get a DSO that's a pleasure to use where the scope controls and menu's have been designed by Interface Engineers with decades of high end experience, and you can believe the specs with confidence. If they say 2GS/s you can believe it!

Do you really think that Rigol LCD will still be working properly in 25 years ?

Plus once you have the unit, you'll have something that's the best of the current tech and in 25 years will probably still be very useful. Mine still is.

Will you still have that $9k+ car in 25 years ?

Finally a $10k DSO amortized over 25 years costs only $400 per year and is one of the most useful and precious instruments you will EVER own.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2019, 01:38:44 pm »
It is just ease of use. Switch to roll-mode and try to see if there are narrow pulses. Sure you can use triggers to hunt for narrow pulses but using peak-detect is just quicker because you can see everything in one measurement. Time = money. And in some cases pulses are so narrow versus their duty cycle that you can't see them without peak detect if you want to have the time in between them on screen as well. Think about a vsync pulse for a display interface. All in all I won't buy an oscilloscope for general purpose use if it doesn't have peak-detect.
I understand but all peak detect tells you is that there is something, the pulse will not resemble the true signal so if you want to do something with it then you need to re-acquire anyways :(

So what am I missing?  :-//
The shape of a pulse often isn't very interesting. Just that it is there (or not). Ofcourse you can throw more memory at the problem but remember that having too much memory generally makes an oscilloscope slower to operate. Peak detect is very handy to have a responsive instrument as well. There is a good reason every oscilloscope manufacturer except Lecroy has peak-detect on their oscilloscopes.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2019, 02:28:30 pm »
any double digit and more GHz only she the royal majesty can afford them. used SDA 13GHz and 18GHz are still $9K+ way more than most of us can afford, let alone the matching probes. so they are not high bandwidth but high majesty.
My 2Cents ...
Yet we spend $9k + on a car or motorbike, things which only co$t us money, get banged up, rust and need endless maintenance.
I think $9k+ for any double digit and more GHz DSO is a utter BARGAIN!
...
My advice is if you're planning to spend your life in electronics doing design, buy the MOST EXPENSIVE scope from a American manufacturer reputed for high quality scopes, and avoid cheap junk from China.
Finally a $10k DSO amortized over 25 years costs only $400 per year and is one of the most useful and precious instruments you will EVER own.
100% agreed with you IF this is your main profession to get money from, just get the best tool however pricey they are. we buy house, clothes and car so we can live comfortably and work everyday to get money every month. this is justifiable investment the money we can get back in few years to come.

but here we are talking used equipments to cramp as much BW/features into our hobby bench from the small money allocated from our main job/income.
1) the 9K figure is for used DSO that already spent its life 16 - 20 years somewhere else. how much life left is anyone guesses. only luck.
2) the new double digit GHz DSO is 6 figures tag, we can choose a house (and a wife) or the high majesty DSO alone, not even a dangling probe. not many can afford both.
3) cheap junk china/Rigol is not even in the picture, they not even exist in high end range used nor new.

btw the thing that cursed me i think was the hobby grade 5.8GHz wireless video/antenna that i bought for drone/rc airplane stuffs few years ago and then got its amplifier chip toasted for unknown reason until i acquired (due to the 6GHz curse) some tools to diagnose. so a person who can get 6 figures stuffs for this kind of purpose is imho a very wealthy person. my 2cnts.
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline Mr Nutts

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2019, 02:39:16 pm »
The shape of a pulse often isn't very interesting. Just that it is there (or not).

But as shown I can do that just as fine without peak detect ;)
 
Quote
Ofcourse you can throw more memory at the problem but remember that having too much memory generally makes an oscilloscope slower to operate.

At a given sample rate it takes longer to fill a larger memory than a small one, that is a given ;)
 
But other than that there is no scope with “too much memory” :)
 
There might be cases of “user uses way more memory than necessary” but this is a different problem ;)
 
And my Agilent Infinum can manage the memory automatically, i.e. it only uses as much memory as necessary. There’s nothing slow about it ;)
 
I fully understand that peak detect can be useful on a scope with small memory (as I found out myself with that TDS3000) but my argument is that on a scope with large memory, (i.e. say anything with 16M and more) peak detect is no longer needed because you can get similar results with normal acquisition. And so far I haven’t seen a case which would convince me otherwise.
 
Quote
Peak detect is very handy to have a responsive instrument as well.

Not more so than in normal acquisition. Remember we’re talking about the case of short pulses with very long pause between them, which requires a very long time base. And a displayed timebase of 200ms takes 200ms to acquire, no matter if in real-time or peak detect :)
 
Quote
There is a good reason every oscilloscope manufacturer except Lecroy has peak-detect on their oscilloscopes.

I’m sure the only reason it’s still there is that its simple to implement and its presence satisfies the expectations of users coming from a Tek ;)
 
I’m sorry but I still can’t see why peak detect is supposed to be such an important feature in a modern scope with enough memory. Not even when talking about very narrow pulses with excessively large pause between them, a case that by itself is probably already a corner case :(
 
Arguments like “it’s easier” are subjective (I don’t think using peak detect is any easier than just using real-time acquisition, not even on my Lecroy LT with manual memory management) ;)
 
So as shown on a large memory scope like my old Agilent Infinum I don’t even need peak detect to look at your corner case signals, and even less so for other signals that are a lot further away from such extremes ;)
 
So it looks your afinity for peak detect is merely down to your personal preference, i.e. that’s the way you know ;)
 
Which is fine of course but I wouldn’t tell everyone that peak detect is such a crucial feature when it isn’t  ;)
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2019, 02:59:40 pm »
0culus, good suggestions all around. For quite some time I had my eyes on the Wavesurfer 24/44/64 series from LeCroy, which seems to be quite interesting when purchased used but still a bit steep. I also looked at the much more reasonably priced Waverunner 6000 series (6030, 6050) but they are CRT and not LCD TFT (my bench space is limited).

One detail that I haven't seen it here is probes: if you are interested in high bandwidth and do not yet have the active probes, perhaps put that into the overall budget of your new oscilloscope.

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Offline techman-001

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2019, 03:03:58 pm »
any double digit and more GHz only she the royal majesty can afford them. used SDA 13GHz and 18GHz are still $9K+ way more than most of us can afford, let alone the matching probes. so they are not high bandwidth but high majesty.
My 2Cents ...
Yet we spend $9k + on a car or motorbike, things which only co$t us money, get banged up, rust and need endless maintenance.
I think $9k+ for any double digit and more GHz DSO is a utter BARGAIN!
...
My advice is if you're planning to spend your life in electronics doing design, buy the MOST EXPENSIVE scope from a American manufacturer reputed for high quality scopes, and avoid cheap junk from China.
Finally a $10k DSO amortized over 25 years costs only $400 per year and is one of the most useful and precious instruments you will EVER own.
100% agreed with you IF this is your main profession to get money from, just get the best tool however pricey they are. we buy house, clothes and car so we can live comfortably and work everyday to get money every month. this is justifiable investment the money we can get back in few years to come.

but here we are talking used equipments to cramp as much BW/features into our hobby bench from the small money allocated from our main job/income.
1) the 9K figure is for used DSO that already spent its life 16 - 20 years somewhere else. how much life left is anyone guesses. only luck.
2) the new double digit GHz DSO is 6 figures tag, we can choose a house (and a wife) or the high majesty DSO alone, not even a dangling probe. not many can afford both.
3) cheap junk china/Rigol is not even in the picture, they not even exist in high end range used nor new.

btw the thing that cursed me i think was the hobby grade 5.8GHz wireless video/antenna that i bought for drone/rc airplane stuffs few years ago and then got its amplifier chip toasted for unknown reason until i acquired (due to the 6GHz curse) some tools to diagnose. so a person who can get 6 figures stuffs for this kind of purpose is imho a very wealthy person. my 2cnts.

Unbelievable !!! I mean really, where can you get a house AND $Wife for only 6 figures ?   :-DD
 
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Offline Mr Nutts

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2019, 03:29:18 pm »
I also looked at the much more reasonably priced Waverunner 6000 series (6030, 6050) but they are CRT and not LCD TFT (my bench space is limited).

There are no Waverunners with CRT ;)

They all have TFT displays :)

But Waverunner 6000 has limited triggers (i.e. no runt trigger) :(

The older Waverunner2 LT on the ither side has a great trigger suite :)

« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 03:31:50 pm by Mr Nutts »
 
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Offline Kosmic

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2019, 04:11:09 pm »
I’m sorry but I still can’t see why peak detect is supposed to be such an important feature in a modern scope with enough memory. Not even when talking about very narrow pulses with excessively large pause between them, a case that by itself is probably already a corner case :(
 
Arguments like “it’s easier” are subjective (I don’t think using peak detect is any easier than just using real-time acquisition, not even on my Lecroy LT with manual memory management) ;)

Totally agree with you here. Personally, I think the amount of memory is far more important than having the peak-detect feature. However, in the end I guess it's a question of preference and how you want to use your scope.

I think the rule of thumb is: Try to buy a scope with a lot of acquisition memory. If you don't, make sure it has peak-detect.

 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2019, 04:16:21 pm »
I also looked at the much more reasonably priced Waverunner 6000 series (6030, 6050) but they are CRT and not LCD TFT (my bench space is limited).

There are no Waverunners with CRT ;)

They all have TFT displays :)
I stand corrected then. The depth of the scopes gave me the impression they were CRT.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2019, 04:55:44 pm »
i figured peak detect is still usefull on my rigol DS1054Z i will always turn that ON unless i want to see cleaner triggered signal. high BW scope is an addition, not a replacement to a cheaper general purpose scope.
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline Mr Nutts

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2019, 08:45:44 pm »
i figured peak detect is still usefull on my rigol DS1054Z i will always turn that ON unless i want to see cleaner triggered signal.

Always? But why?  :-//

Peak detect may or may not have some use on very long time bases but on shorter timebases it makes no sense whatsoever :(

Besides, doesn't the DS1054z have 24M of memory? Even when hacked to 100 MHz the timebase would still have to be very long for the sample rate to drop below what's necessary to sustain the analog bandwidth ;)

So why would you even keep it enabled?  :-//

Quote
high BW scope is an addition, not a replacement to a cheaper general purpose scope.

If high bandwidth means a real high bandwidth scope (i.e. 8GHz or more) then I guess it depends, but definitely not for the scopes to 3GHz as discussed in this thread ;)

Aside from the higher bandwidth, there's nothing which makes my 2GHz Wavepro 960 any less suitable for every-day tasks than any of my other scopes :)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 08:47:29 pm by Mr Nutts »
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2019, 09:05:16 pm »
I wonder what you are doing to require peak detect on a modern scope with sufficient memory and which can’t be done with real-time sampling and triggers if required? Or maybe you just use it because it’s what you are accustomed to?  :-//

DSOs with memory of sufficient size?  I don't think they exist.

Peak detection or even better, DPO operation, is useful to find the glitch before I know what to trigger on.  If I knew what to trigger on, I would have already fixed the problem.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2019, 09:11:40 pm »
i figured peak detect is still usefull on my rigol DS1054Z i will always turn that ON unless i want to see cleaner triggered signal.
Always? But why?  :-//
Peak detect may or may not have some use on very long time bases but on shorter timebases it makes no sense whatsoever :(
Besides, doesn't the DS1054z have 24M of memory? Even when hacked to 100 MHz the timebase would still have to be very long for the sample rate to drop below what's necessary to sustain the analog bandwidth ;)
So why would you even keep it enabled?  :-//
you need to see the difference (between peak detect ON and OFF) when looking at glitchy signal in long timebase (sample rate tremendously reduced from 1GSps) to understand. its not about memory length, its about sample rate. at maximum sampling rate (short timebase) yes it will make no difference. i'm not sure how it works but i guess it explained by Kosmic in reply #12...

If you need 1GHz or more then the older DSOs from Agilent and Lecroy are a good option but these won't be very useful as a general purpose oscilloscope due to (generally) no peak detect mode, big size and noise.

Big and noisy, yes. But, is the lack of peak detect really a problem ? My understanding was that, in peak detect mode, the oscilloscope was running as fast as possible sorting and keeping only the Min/Max samples. You can probably do something similar running at max speed and activating persistance.

To detect glitchs another option is to exploit the triggering system. Interesting post on the subject from Wuerstchenhund: https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/blog/the-truth-about-oscilloscope-waveform-update-rates-and-why-not-to-fall-for-it.1514/
the workaround of cranking timebase to shorter or smaller value until maximum sampling rate is achieved sometime is less than ideal, esp on slow signal/communication rate, thats why i think high BW scope with no peak detect is not particularly good at this, doable but.. glitches may show up in say eye pattern during signal integrity test, but if we want to see where the glitches happening in the long timescale (slow bitrate signal), the no peak detect scope maybe short at this. that why i said high BW scope is an addition. each one with suitable purpose. for glitchy 1Kbps signal, there is no need for high BW dso (the no peak detect = old = cheap dso). ymmv.
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2019, 09:31:12 pm »
i figured peak detect is still usefull on my rigol DS1054Z i will always turn that ON unless i want to see cleaner triggered signal.
Always? But why?  :-//

Peak detect may or may not have some use on very long time bases but on shorter timebases it makes no sense whatsoever :(

Besides, doesn't the DS1054z have 24M of memory? Even when hacked to 100 MHz the timebase would still have to be very long for the sample rate to drop below what's necessary to sustain the analog bandwidth ;)

So why would you even keep it enabled?  :-//
Gather some more experience on doing measurements and you'll see why peak-detect is a must-have feature (and why most manufacturers include it in their oscilloscopes). Memory runs out at some point but narrow pulses don't.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Mr Nutts

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2019, 07:53:14 am »
DSOs with memory of sufficient size?  I don't think they exist.

I would say the 128M on my Agilent Infinum 600MHz scope is sufficient ;)
 
I would also say the 64M in my Wavepro is sufficient ;)
 
And many new scopes come with even more memory, i.e. this new Siglent SDS5000X (250M) or the Rigol DS5000 (500M) :)
 
Quote
Peak detection or even better, DPO operation, is useful to find the glitch before I know what to trigger on.

You mean to find out if there's a glitch?
 
But that method is unreliable as just because your scope doesn't show a glitch doesn't mean there is none, simply because your scope is still blind most of the time (approx 9x as likely to miss it than to find it) :(
 
With triggers I find the glitch at the first occurrence, every time :)
 
Quote
If I knew what to trigger on, I would have already fixed the problem.

I can set the trigger to show me anything that is outside my signal's specs, no problem :)
 
And no matter how rare it is my scope will show me :)
 
 
you need to see the difference (between peak detect ON and OFF) when looking at glitchy signal in long timebase (sample rate tremendously reduced from 1GSps) to understand. its not about memory length, its about sample rate.

But peak detect will not show you the true signal form anyways because it's timing will be totally off due to the way it works :(
 
A hacked DS1054z with 24M memory should be able to sustain the full 1 GSps down to a timebase of 24ms :)
 
But being a 100MHz scope, the sample rate can drop to 500MSa/s without limiting its usable BW which is a 48ms timebase ;)
 
If the pulses contain elements requiring 100MHz BW then further dropping the sample rate will cause aliasing but it's still better than peak detect because the start/pause timing will still be right ;)
 
I don't have a DS1054z and I don't know if this scope has other limitations, though :-//
 
 
Gather some more experience on doing measurements and you'll see why peak-detect is a must-have feature (and why most manufacturers include it in their oscilloscopes). Memory runs out at some point but narrow pulses don't.

I may not be the most experienced EE but frankly so far no-one has offered a really good reason why peak detect should be considered important :(
 
One argument was to see narrow pulses (i.e. if they're there) but I can do the same in real-time sampling even when undersampling (and with the large memory on some scopes the timebase would have to be really damn long to undersample), and despite the aliasing the real-time sampling will still offer me true start/pause timings while peak detect will not :(
 
Another argument was to use peak detect in combination with persistence mode to find out if there are any glitches but this method is highly unreliable when the scope is blind for roughly 9x as long as the time it can "see" events, so what's the point? Setup proper triggers and you'll know with certainty if there's a glitch or not :-//
 
Then there was the argument to use peak detect at long timebases because of the higher sample rate but this seems to miss the point that peak detect will not present a true representation of the waveform or its timing parameters anyways :(
 
So I'm sorry but to me it still boils down to "I want it because its what I'm familiar with" :-//
 
In fact, it's mostly only college (with profs long away from industry) and this forum where I was told that peak detect is a must-have feature. Asking the senior EEs at work I'm told it's only relevant on old scopes which often had little memory and there's not much need for it today. And a certain former member who shall not be named and who knows a lot about scopes said the same :(
 
So how about one of the proponents of peak detect describes a real case and a real signal which clearly demonstrates the need for peak detect and which I could try to replicate?  :box:
 
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 09:44:15 am by Mr Nutts »
 

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2019, 08:06:31 am »
DSOs with memory of sufficient size?  I don't think they exist.

I would say the 128M on my Agilent Infinum 600MHz scope is sufficient ;)
 
I would also say the 64M in my Wavepro is sufficient ;)
 
And many new scopes come with even more memory, i.e. this new Siglent SDS5000X (250M) or the Rigol DS5000 (500M) :)
 
2x 250M. 250M for each 5GSa/s ADC.  ;)
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2019, 01:08:14 pm »
So how about one of the proponents of peak detect describes a real case and a real signal which clearly demonstrates the need for peak detect and which I could try to replicate?  :box:

I'm not proponent of peek detect. I just shared my experience (not opinion) that it is useful sometimes, and good to have.
This is a bit like an old academic fight about GOTO statement. It was religious like dispute that completely obfuscated the fact that statement wasn't evil per se but was misused.

Same here. I fail to see your reasons to fight against something other people find useful. What is your reason for it?
Academic purity of measurement process? Fact that Wuerstchenhund says so so it must be true?
Fact that you do only limited scope of work with oscilloscopes and in your dealings you never had need for it?

As I said before, sometimes you have to work at long timescale because that is what device does. Like I sad in example of blinking light. It's blinking in seconds scale, but is driven with kHz scale PWM, and powered with 1MHz switcher, CPU is running at 8Mhz, and there is radio module at 868 MHz.. And there were visible artefacts in lights at seemingly random intervals. It is given to you as ready made device and no support from original developer.
So what are you looking at here? What trigger do you use... How do you correlate things? How do you do it quickest and most efficiently? What is normal and abnormal signal here? Before anything you first have to make sense of what is going on, get a feel for it..
You don't need purity of measurements all the time. Sometimes it is just looking at the things...

And peak detect is actually what you would see on analog CRT scope. CRT scope would retain full vertical deflection of incoming signal, regardless of timebase.
Once the timebase was such that the trace width was larger than signal width at that scale, you didn't know anymore what was in there. Was it triangle, sine, or a whole SPI packet there? No it was just vertical line with correct P-P value. But something is there.

If you grab something with 128 Mpoints and 4 Mpoint, it will still be mapped to 800-2000 (if you're lucky) horizontal pixel resolution. So if you set timebase that one pixel width corresponds to say 1us, anything happening in that 1 us will be simple vertical line. On both of them.

And then you want to see what's in there. Yo can now use zoom, and while still capturing whole 2 seconds, zoom in to that 1 us. On short memory scope you will see garbage. On long memory scope you will see it all. Beautiful.  But if signal is repetitive, you can just shorten the timebase and move around with trigger delay. Like we did for 50 years... And you will still see the same. And once scope start sampling full speed it will automatically disable peek detect and signal will be pristine.

In practical interactive work there is no difference most of the time. Only thing you will see is that shorter memory scope will, in general, be snappier and feel better. Not a show stopper but some people will find that important. I don't find it that important (I guess it has to do with each individual's patience) but it is nice though.

Only real difference is when you have to capture signal in its entirety, with full detail, for further analysis, to share it with somebody, for documentation etc.

In which case you need:
1. Long memory to capture whole event at sample rate that is good enough to capture all that is interesting.
2. You don't want to reshape samples in any way, so you can apply any kind of signal transformation on mathematically correct signal. No filters, no peek detect, no high res.... 

And that is why long memory scopes exist. That is bread and butter of LeCroy, Picoscope etc. for instance.

Depending of what you do, you might just do interactive work (like servicing equipment) all the time. Or you might be some scientist that just sample and analyse all the time, no interactive scope work at all.
Or like me (and Nico and many others) you have maybe 80% of interactive work and 20% of the time when you need long mem scopes.

Funny thing is that you're arguing us, but both Nctnico and myself (if you care to look around the eevblog) are great proponents of long memory scopes, and warned many members about that.

To explain, I have fully loaded Keysight MSOX3104T, and Picoscope 3406D MSO with 512 MPoints, and a Picoscope 4262 (16 bit low noise instrument). They all can do things other two cannot.
But if I had to keep only one it would be Keysight. Despite small memory (in comparison), it is most useful in my everyday work. Even if you have to use peak detect sometimes.

In summary:
1. For different uses, use different tools.. There is no "one scope to rule them all". If you do really various things, chance is you will have a need for different scopes. I have 3 at the moment.
2. Peak detect is a workaround for acquisition memory that is not long enough to sample fast enough to keep Nyquist criteria for longer time bases.
3. If you get to the point that your scope undersamples, peak detect is more accurate representation of signal shape on screen than without peak detect, where you basically get random data. Actually, it is perfect visual representation of how signal looks .
4. Peak detect is not good mathematical representation of sampled data. It shouldn't be used if you want to take data and mathematically analyse it further.
4. If your scope doesn't have peak detect, and you undersample data, your data will be wrong both mathematically and visually.
5. If you can choose between a scope with long mem and one with short mem, everything else being equal, by all means take one with long mem. It's better. Will you use it all the time? No.
6. If you have more than 2-4 MPoints, most of the time you won't undersample in average work. In average work we look at the detail, not the whole thing.
7. If you need to capture a data and "massage it" later on, high sample rate and long memory will give you more to work with. And not only there is no need for it hen, you can't use peak detect even if you want to.
8. Peak detect gets auto disabled when scope starts sampling at full sampling rate. It is basically undersampling protection, while not perfect, it will prevent you from missing something in a signal sometimes.

So I do like long mem. I also like peak detect. It's just another tool. It can be useful sometimes. Generally, you should look at what you do, and find scope that fits that workflow.

Is it decoding? Do you need history/segmented memory? Max bandwidth? Do you need advanced math, jitter analysis? Do you create a lot of documentation? Do you do this or you that ?

There are many fantastic older scopes. You should choose them by quality (they are already old, you want to squeeze few more years from them before they die) and ease of repair.
You should choose them by their feature set and bandwidth. Peak detect is simply one of the tools. And in my experience, there is never too much tools and too much help. Just make sure you know how to use it and apply it properly.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 07:57:30 am by 2N3055 »
 
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2019, 02:38:58 pm »
DSOs with memory of sufficient size?  I don't think they exist.

I would say the 128M on my Agilent Infinum 600MHz scope is sufficient ;)
 
I would also say the 64M in my Wavepro is sufficient ;)
 
And many new scopes come with even more memory, i.e. this new Siglent SDS5000X (250M) or the Rigol DS5000 (500M) :)

Large acquisition memories come with a cost besides economics.  They proportionally increase processing time and I have watched many of these DSOs grind to a halt when a large acquisition memory is selected.  Otherwise why allow selecting a shorter record length at all?  Why don't they always use the longest record length unless there is some advantage to be had by using a smaller one?
 
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Peak detection or even better, DPO operation, is useful to find the glitch before I know what to trigger on.

You mean to find out if there's a glitch?
 
But that method is unreliable as just because your scope doesn't show a glitch doesn't mean there is none, simply because your scope is still blind most of the time (approx 9x as likely to miss it than to find it) :(

DPO operation solves this issue and can be considered a superset of peak detection.

Large record lengths do not solve the problem of blind time unless processing is fast enough to immediately start a new acquisition and if that was the case, then why is the long record length required in the first place?  (1)  Bounce buffering is a potential solution for this but still still limits the acquisition rate to the processing rate.

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With triggers I find the glitch at the first occurrence, every time :)

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If I knew what to trigger on, I would have already fixed the problem.

I can set the trigger to show me anything that is outside my signal's specs, no problem :)
 
And no matter how rare it is my scope will show me :)

Glitches can also include behavior which is within the signal's specifications.  The point of DPO operation is to find every unknown by capturing every signal characteristic.  It is useful when I do not know specifically or even exclusively what I am looking for.  If you measure something 'funny,' record the amount of 'funny'.  (2)

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So how about one of the proponents of peak detect describes a real case and a real signal which clearly demonstrates the need for peak detect and which I could try to replicate?  :box:

One is simply to detect aliasing.  If the peak detected signal is not consistent with the sampled signal, then aliasing has occurred.

Another place I have specifically seen it be advantageous is tracking the pulse per second output of a GPS under certain conditions (say after XOR or race condition edge detection) where even the longest record length is not sufficient because the capture time exceeds 1 second.  Segmented memory could be even more useful here, however many DSOs have peak detection without supporting segmented memory.  A dual delayed timebase may also be able to make this measurement.

(1) My understanding is that LeCroy was the proponent of this type of design with massive processing backing up a simple acquisition system that had a long record length and this is supported by Moore's Law.  I am inclined to think LeCroy's marketing disparaged peak detection simply because they did not support it (emphasize your strengths, understate your weaknesses) which makes sense but I am not convinced their method satisfactorily replaced it.

I think Rohde & Schwarz is on the right path by decimating into multiple data sets.  If all of that processing performance must be included, then applying it to decimation means longer effective record lengths and faster performance with less high speed memory.

(2) Bob Pease.
 

Offline Mr Nutts

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2019, 02:48:35 pm »
I fail to see your reasons to fight against something other people find useful. What is your reason for it?
Academic purity of measurement process? Fact that Wuerstchenhund says so so it must be true?
Fact that you do only limited scope of work with oscilloscopes and in your dealings you never had need for it?

The simple reason I ask is that, litterally, every time the discussion is about older higher BW scopes, it's stated that these and those scopes are no good because they lack peak detect :(

That seems to be considered as a statement of fact without every questioning if it's still true :(
 
Out in the real world, when I ask distinguished EEs and test engineers about peak detect in scopes they all say I should ignore it, it's a crutch from the past :(
 
And while my own experience is limited, I worked with signals involving groups of long-spaced narrow pulses and was able to do everything I need without peak detect :)
 
As to Wurstunhund, yes I actually believe what he says is correct. Not only because he has tremendous knowledge but also because he can explain the reasons for his arguments so I can easily follow his reasoning. I really wished some of my former profs had such great skills to explain even complex things. He also sent me a few videos and pictures demonstrating things, and because of him today I'm much better in making use of the available functionality in a complex DSO than after college ;)
 
And this has already paid off several times in my job ;)
 
So yes, when he says that peak detect is a crutch from the past then I believe him, and even more so when my (very experienced) co-workers say the same and it also fits with my own experience ;)
 
 
Quote
Funny thing is that you're arguing us, but both Nctnico and myself (if you care to look around the eevblog) are great proponents of long memory scopes, and warned many members about that.

As an engineer, I want to get behind the reason for things and see if I can improve my skills and methods, so I'm interested in the reason why certain members feel peak detect is so crucial. But so far all I see is "it's faster" and other subjective "reasons" which sound more like some of the profs at my former college which were mentally stuck in the 80s because that was the last time they had any contact with real industry :(
 
And as far as I can see, specially nctnico lists peak detect every time the talk is about older scopes, even if it's about long memory scopes :-//
 
I had less problem if people said they personally prefer to use it because that's what they know and it fits their workflow, fine, but no, it's sold as if it was one of the most important features in a scope :(
 
So I would really like to see some justification for it ;)
 
Even more so because just because you used the same method for decades doesn't mean it's not outdated or can't be done better ;)
 
A bit like fishing for anomalies with persistence mode - highly unreliable but still recommended as the way to find out if a signal has anomalies :(
 
 
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To explain, I have fully loaded Keysight MSOX3104T, and Picoscope 2406D MSO with 512 MPoints, and a Picoscope 4262 (16 bit low noise instrument). They all can do things other two cannot.
But if I had to keep only one it would be Keysight. Despite small memory (in comparison), it is most useful in my everyday work. Even if you have to use peak detect sometimes.

I would probably chose the same, just because I don't like USB scopes which need a separate PC on my bench ;)
 
And as far as I know, Picoscopes also lack interfaces for active probes :(
 
But that doesn't mean the memory of the Keysight isn't too small for a modern scope ;)
 
If I had to select only one scope to use then I'd take my Agilent Infinum DSO8064A over that MSOX3104T any day (if I needed MSO, then it would be an Agilent MSO8064A). Or even my Wavepro 960 (because I really don't need MSO). Simply because they are much more capable scopes than that Keysight 3104T, even without peak detect :)
 
 
Quote
In summary:
1. For different uses, use different tools.. There is no "one scope to rule them all". If you do really various things, chance is you will have a need for different scopes. I have 3 at the moment.

No argument here. Especially since my own scope collection has also been growing ;)
 
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2. Peak detect is a workaround for acquisition memory that is not long enough to sample fast enough to keep Nyquist criteria for longer time bases.

No argument here either ;)
 
Quote
3. If you get to the point that your scope undersamples, peak detect is more accurate representation of signal shape on screen than without peak detect, where you basically get random data. Actually, it is perfect visual representation of how signal looks .

I'm sorry but this is completely wrong. In peak detect mode the scope runs at full sample rate but not every sample is represented on the screen, in fact the scope only takes the Extrema (the highest and the lowest value) of a series of samples and uses them for display. This means that neither the shape nor the timing parameters of the waveform on screen may be correct. Maybe often you don't see the difference but that doesn't mean peak detect creates a waveform that is true to the input signal :(
 
Also, undersampling doesn't create random data. Undersampling is essentially mixing, i.e. frequency components outside the first Nyquist zone (i.e. frequencies below half odf the sampling frequency) which reach into the 2nd Nyquist zone are folded back into the first zone in reverse order (i.e. high frequency components become lower frequency components and vice versa). This is what is shown as aliasing, and there is absolutely nothing random about it :(
 
In fact, while peak detect won't give you true signal shape or timing, the aliased signal still retains the original true waveform, just with added frequency components. Even the general timing (i.e. starting and end point of the pulse, duration of pause) is correct, only the shape isn't ;)
 
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4. Peak detect is not good mathematical representation of sampled data. It shouldn't be used if you want to take data and mathematically analyse it further.

This is another way of saying that peak detect is not representative of your input signal ;)
 
Which is true ;)
 
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4. If your scope doesn't have peak detect, and you undersample data, your data will be wrong both mathematically and visually.

Wrong. If I undersample then the pulse shape is wrong but general timing parameters are correct :)
 
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5. If you can choose between a scope with long mem and one with short mem, everything else being equal, by all means take one with long mem. It's better. Will you use it all the time? No.

I While certainly true, I can't see the relevance here :-//
 
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6. If you have more than 2-4 MPoints, most of the time you won't undersample in average work. In average work we look at the detail, not the whole thing.

I can't speak for others of course but in my "average work" I'm interested in both the detail (i.e. pulse parameters) as well as the "whole thing" (complete signal) :-//
 
And 4M is not a lot of memory, it's actually quite small ;)
 
Most of the scopes discussed in this thread have a lot more memory than just 4M ;)
 
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7. If you need to capture a data and "massage it" later on, high sample rate and long memory will give you more to work with. And not only there is no need for it hen, you can't use peak detect even if you want to.

True, but why would I even want to use peak detect? :-//
 
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8. Peak detect gets auto disabled when scope starts sampling at full sampling rate. It is basically undersampling protection, while not perfect, it will prevent you from missing something in a signal sometimes.

That is correct ;)
 
Peak detect was designed of a means for glitch detection in low memory scopes. "Glitch detection" as in "user sees glitch on screen", which in itself is a highly unreliable method of finding rare glitches when considering that your average scope is blind approx 90% of the time :(
 
So peak detect doesn't give me true waveshape or timing, and it's useless to determine if a signal is really free of glitches. So why would I use it again? ;-//
 
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s it decoding? Do you need history/segmented memory? Max bandwidth? Do you need advanced math, jitter analysis? Do you create a lot of documentation? Do you do this or you that ?

Funny you mention that because when the discussion about older scopes no-one proposes that certain models are no good because they don't do serial decode or MSO capabilities or anything like that. But for some reason, peak detect is the all deciding feature? :-//
 
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 02:52:18 pm by Mr Nutts »
 
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Offline Mr Nutts

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Re: Nice, older DSO advice
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2019, 04:19:04 pm »
Large acquisition memories come with a cost besides economics.  They proportionally increase processing time and I have watched many of these DSOs grind to a halt when a large acquisition memory is selected.

Sounds like the Tek scopes at college ;)
 
But yes, at a given sample rate it takes longer to fill a larger memory than a smaller one. There's no way around that :(
 
As to "grinding to a halt", that depends on the scope's processing capabilities. My Agilent 8064 does certainly not "grind to a halt" when using the full 128M ;)
 
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Otherwise why allow selecting a shorter record length at all?  Why don't they always use the longest record length unless there is some advantage to be had by using a smaller one?

Because a smaller memory comes with a higher screen update rate, which is important if you want to use the scope visually ;)
 
On my Lecroy scopes I usually select a size of 100k if I want to get fast screen updates. If I need it for more than just staring at waveforms then I select the full memory ;)
 
That is why better scopes allow manual memory management ;)
 
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But that method is unreliable as just because your scope doesn't show a glitch doesn't mean there is none, simply because your scope is still blind most of the time (approx 9x as likely to miss it than to find it) :(

DPO operation solves this issue and can be considered a superset of peak detection.

No, it does not :(
 
Even in DPO mode a Tek scope is still suffering from huge blind time, as does every other scope in persistence mode :(
 
With these methods you have no idea if your signal is really free of anomalies because most of the time you'd just miss it :(
 
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Large record lengths do not solve the problem of blind time

No-one said it does. Triggers solve it ;)
 
Read the article on WH's blog I posted ;)
 
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Glitches can also include behavior which is within the signal's specifications.

I really like to see an example for that because if it's a glitch (i.e. an unwanted element) then by definition it's outside your signal specification :-//
 
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The point of DPO operation is to find every unknown by capturing every signal characteristic.  It is useful when I do not know specifically or even exclusively what I am looking for.  If you measure something 'funny,' record the amount of 'funny'.  (2)

But it doesn't. It only shows glitches that appear outside the blind time, the latter which is roughly 9x as long as the time the scope actually "sees" something :(
 
The chance to miss a glitch is approx 9x as high as the chance that the scope captures it :(
 
I just setup my triggers and capture any anomaly at the first occurrence with 100% reliability ;)
 
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Another place I have specifically seen it [peek detect] be advantageous is tracking the pulse per second output of a GPS under certain conditions (say after XOR or race condition edge detection) where even the longest record length is not sufficient because the capture time exceeds 1 second.

A PPS signal is just a pulse or a square wave with 1Hz fundamental, many scopes should be able to resolve that with acceptable accuracy over several seconds. With peak detect the shown signal may look like the input signal but the timing information and waveshape are not true to the input signal :(
 
I can't see why I should use peak detect over normal acquisition here :-//
 
Quote
Segmented memory could be even more useful here, however many DSOs have peak detection without supporting segmented memory.

Most of the scopes discussed in this thread have segmented memory ;)
 
Quote
My understanding is that LeCroy was the proponent of this type of design with massive processing backing up a simple acquisition system that had a long record length and this is supported by Moore's Law.  I am inclined to think LeCroy's marketing disparaged peak detection simply because they did not support it (emphasize your strengths, understate your weaknesses) which makes sense but I am not convinced their method satisfactorily replaced it.

Old Lecroy scopes had peak detect, I think the last one was the 9384 which is very old. But back then memory sizes were a lot smaller than they are today ;)
 
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