Author Topic: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO  (Read 31336 times)

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Offline Sighound36

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #100 on: April 28, 2020, 11:28:16 am »
I believe Spectrum View is available at no additional cost on the Tek MSO 5 and 6 (optional for the MSO 4) ! This is like having a time correlated spectrum analyzer for each channel. Did you get to use it by any chance in your evaluations ?

Hello Snoopy

Yes I did use the spectrum view most days as this is an integral part of our design remit. I have attached some images below
Being frank its not that good, it can be helpful if you do not have access to a half reasonable SA, as a guide its fine and will give you a good indication of any possible FFT harmonic and spurious issues. The display isn't bad at all, the unit I was loaned came with every option and weighed in at well over £100K (as I suspect did the LeCroy in fairness).

Just to put this into perspective the 8Ghz upgrade to this scope is £62,500 alone on top of the £21,600 starting price extra memory to 250Mpts per channel is £8500 Apps range form £1100 to £7000 (over 40 to choose from lol) extended 2Ghz BW on spectrum view is included but £4130 is required for the frequency Vs time option. All plus 20% vat of coarse so I suspect over £130K fully optioned up without anything other than the stock probes!

For that outlay you could opt for a Rigol or Siglent (We love Tautech really  :-DD) RTA which offer a better solution for pretty much the cost of the Spectrum view upgrade on the 6 series Tek

They preform far better and you have a 40Mhz real time bandwidth as well (I have one of these units and did the comparison at the same time)

I have also included some images of the LeCroy Wavepro's spectrum view for you as well it to was a much better solution and I feel more accurate as well, I also pit the Wave pro against the Rigol RTA as well that was much closer indeed.

Now yesterday the Danny Bogoff show launched they new mini UXR for the pauper's brigade that was 6Ghz and had a built in RTA how we do not know yet (pretty sure TSP will be doing a review as we speak!) that was $106K (lol) but the point is what are you getting for your outlay???

I am not really bashing Tek, like I have said before we have three pieces of their equipment and its very good but their scopes and pricing are just (old English phrase here) "pissing in the wind" with the competition at the moment imho







« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 11:36:14 am by Sighound36 »
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Offline snoopy

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #101 on: April 28, 2020, 11:35:43 am »
It's such a shame what has happened to Tek. I absolutely love the TDS3000 and TDS700 series scopes, but pretty much everything Tek has offered since then has missed the mark IMO.

Tek has missed the mark for a lot longer than that. It's demise started when analog scopes became a dead-end, and Tek has shown ever since that they never really 'got' digital scopes and would rather still make analog scopes.

Most of Tek's DSOs have been pretty lackluster, often hampered by weird design decisions and a slow architecture, and that includes the TDS700 Series. There were some bright spots, though, such as the TDS200 (which introduced the lunchbox format, allthough they weren't the only ones, Iwatsu had a similar scope back then which was rebaded by LeCroy), or the TDS3000 which could be battery operated. Still, both scopes were painfully slow, and aside from the form factor or battery didn't offer much over scopes from other brands. And the fact that Tek carried both well into the 2000's is testament to the general lack of innovation when it comes to scopes.

The really sad part is that they still don't seem to understand the DSO market, even after escaping the cust-cutting culture of Danaher, and I wonder how long they can afford to bleed market share while mostly relying on a brand name that was great some 30 years ago.

Surely you're exaggerating aren't you ?? TDS700 brought out InstaVu with up to 400,000 waveform updates a second which could spot most glitches that other scopes were blind too. It was the forerunner to DPO which also was an industry first. You are right Tek built analog functionality into their digital scopes and now everyone is copying it !

For the new Tek MSO's I can see one advantage of that architecture that other people are not talking about in that you don't lose ADC resolution when you have more than one channel displayed on the screen at the one time.

cheers
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #102 on: April 28, 2020, 11:45:56 am »
I believe Spectrum View is available at no additional cost on the Tek MSO 5 and 6 (optional for the MSO 4) ! This is like having a time correlated spectrum analyzer for each channel. Did you get to use it by any chance in your evaluations ?

Hello Snoopy

Yes I did use the spectrum view most days as this is an integral part of our design remit. I have attached some images below
Being frank its not that good, it can be helpful if you do not have access to a half reasonable SA, as a guide its fine and will give you a good indication of any possible FFT harmonic and spurious issues. The display isn't bad at all, the unit I was loaned came with every option and weighed in at well over £100K (as I suspect did the LeCroy in fairness).

Just to put this into perspective the 8Ghz upgrade to this scope is £62,500 alone on top of the £21,600 starting price extra memory to 250Mpts per channel is £8500 Apps range form £1100 to £7000 (over 40 to choose from lol) extended 2Ghz BW on spectrum view is included but £4130 is required for the frequency Vs time option. All plus 20% vat of coarse so I suspect over £130K fully optioned up without anything other than the stock probes!

For that outlay you could opt for a Rigol or Siglent (We love Tautech really  :-DD) RTA which offer a better solution for pretty much the cost of the Spectrum view upgrade on the 6 series Tek

They preform far better and you have a 40Mhz real time bandwidth as well (I have one of these units and did the comparison at the same time)

I have also included some images of the LeCroy Wavepro's spectrum view for you as well it to was a much better solution and I feel more accurate as well, I also pit the Wave pro against the Rigol RTA as well that was much closer indeed.

Now yesterday the Danny Bogoff show launched they new mini UXR for the pauper's brigade that was 6Ghz and had a built in RTA how we do not know yet (pretty sure TSP will be doing a review as we speak!) that was $106K (lol) but the point is what are you getting for your outlay???

I am not really bashing Tek, like I have said before we have three pieces of their equipment and its very good but their scopes and pricing are just (old English phrase here) "pissing in the wind" with the competition at the moment imho

Hi Sighound

But you are getting a spectrum analyzer on each channel and from what I have been told it's not chewing up anymore resources to have it since it has been incorporated into the hardware. You can also time correlate the spectrum with the time series which you can't do on an independent SA. Not only that you are not losing ADC bits by having multiple SA's switched on at the one time ;) BTW how much did you end up paying for the Lecroy with all options that you wanted ? Yes and I know all of this gear can be really expensive when you start adding it all up with all of the performance and options that you want :(

cheers
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #103 on: April 28, 2020, 12:03:59 pm »

Hi Sighound

But you are getting a spectrum analyzer on each channel and from what I have been told it's not chewing up anymore resources to have it since it has been incorporated into the hardware. You can also time correlate the spectrum with the time series which you can't do on an independent SA. Not only that you are not losing ADC bits by having multiple SA's switched on at the one time ;) BTW how much did you end up paying for the Lecroy with all options that you wanted ? Yes and I know all of this gear can be really expensive when you start adding it all up with all of the performance and options that you want :(

cheers

Hi Snoopy

One plus with the Tek 6 series is the ability to 8 digital channels independently from each analogue channel with their lock and load probes. I can see this persuading a few people along with the stunning tru-view probes.

With regards to the LeCroy I had two independent spectral views running on two separate channels, also two spectral views on one channel no problem each looking at different aspects, no it didn't slow down either.

Depends on what you are using the scope for, we would never have any more than one spectral view in use at any one time, for pre compliance work we would use the SA tem cell/probes and LISN's etc.

Power supply work at a push.

The purchase cost was for 200Mpts / Audiobus / DFP2 Digital filter / Power analysis / Digital power management / JitKit / SDA III / Z1000 active probe / HVD3106A high voltage probe / CA10 current probe sensor £35K plus the vodka and tonic

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Offline snoopy

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #104 on: April 28, 2020, 12:13:54 pm »

Hi Sighound

But you are getting a spectrum analyzer on each channel and from what I have been told it's not chewing up anymore resources to have it since it has been incorporated into the hardware. You can also time correlate the spectrum with the time series which you can't do on an independent SA. Not only that you are not losing ADC bits by having multiple SA's switched on at the one time ;) BTW how much did you end up paying for the Lecroy with all options that you wanted ? Yes and I know all of this gear can be really expensive when you start adding it all up with all of the performance and options that you want :(

cheers

Hi Snoopy

One plus with the Tek 6 series is the ability to 8 digital channels independently from each analogue channel with their lock and load probes. I can see this persuading a few people along with the stunning tru-view probes.

With regards to the LeCroy I had two independent spectral views running on two separate channels, also two spectral views on one channel no problem each looking at different aspects, no it didn't slow down either.

Depends on what you are using the scope for, we would never have any more than one spectral view in use at any one time, for pre compliance work we would use the SA tem cell/probes and LISN's etc.

Power supply work at a push.

The purchase cost was for 200Mpts / Audiobus / DFP2 Digital filter / Power analysis / Digital power management / JitKit / SDA III / Z1000 active probe / HVD3106A high voltage probe / CA10 current probe sensor £35K plus the vodka and tonic

Sounds like you got a good deal ;) Just curious what the equivalent R&S, Tek and Keysight offerings would have cost ?

cheers
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #105 on: April 28, 2020, 12:32:16 pm »
Hi Snoopy

The Tek equivalent with a £3K current probe to the list, but minus the digital filter was a fair bit less on scope price but the cost of the software and probes put the the cost to £46K +vat

The Keysight S series, (though if the cost of the MXR is to be believed a 2.5Ghz unit will be around that £30K mark I feel) again the scope was less and the cost of the software was better very close between the LeCroy and Keysight but I found the LeCroy better, but the Keysight is still decent.

The R&S had a few options and they offered the most discount on the scopes themselves 35%

New RTO2024 Four channel oscilloscope, 2GHz bandwidth, this includes Windows 10 operating system, SDD drive, Jitter and Eye Analysis Options (K12 and K13), and Advanced Spectrum Analysis (K18, which may not be required as FFT Spectrum Analysis is included as standard, however K18 does however extend the capabilities by adding Waterfall displays, and advanced detection modes such as Max Hold etc..) RT-ZD30 3GHz Differential Probe. Total cost was £29,127 +vat

Ex-Demo RTO2044 Four channel oscilloscope, 4GHz bandwidth, however as this an ex-demo instrument it also comes with:
16 digital channel logic analysis and probesArbitrary Waveform Generator OCXO time base Trigger and decode bundle, which includes I2C, SPI, UART, RS232 plus may more… Ex-Demo RT-ZD40 4GHz Differential Probe Remaining options as above (item 1) 1 year warranty. Total cost £38K +vat

In fairness Snoopy I would suggest R&S offered the best pricing  of the big four

« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 01:50:55 pm by Sighound36 »
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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #106 on: April 28, 2020, 03:22:57 pm »
Surely you're exaggerating aren't you ??

No, I'm dead serious.

Quote
TDS700 brought out InstaVu with up to 400,000 waveform updates a second which could spot most glitches that other scopes were blind too. It was the forerunner to DPO which also was an industry first. You are right Tek built analog functionality into their digital scopes and now everyone is copying it !

Looks like someone drank the kool-aid ;)

InstaVu was a crutch where high update rates were achieved in a special mode using data reduction, and which made it impossible to run measurements or any other analysis on the waveform.

It was only an "industry first" in a sense that no-one else implemented such a mode, very likely because of it's limitations. At around the same time, HP came out with its first MegaZoom equipped scope (HP 54645A/D, the 'D' also being the "industry first" MSO), which achieved excessive update rates in normal operation, with no limitations on measurements.

And when it comes to emulating analog functionality, there simply is nothing which better resembles an analog scope than MegaZoom (if that's what you want). It's as simple as that.

Oh, and as far as finding rare glitches is concerned, you don't need high update rates for that if your scope has a decent trigger suite and the user knows how to operate it. The high waveform modes only existed because of analog scope users (Tek didn't understand the potential that was in DSOs; HP did very well, but designed the 54600 Series particularly for analog scope users wanting to migrate to a DSO). Other scopes were equally capable to find even the rarest glitch without high update rates, simply through extensive trigger and analysis suites.

Quote
For the new Tek MSO's I can see one advantage of that architecture that other people are not talking about in that you don't lose ADC resolution when you have more than one channel displayed on the screen at the one time.

Which scope loses ADC resolution when more than one channel is active?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 03:29:16 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline Eric_S

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #107 on: April 28, 2020, 03:55:09 pm »
I still don't understand why they didn't just give the 4000C a smaller screen, and a new case and call it a day.

Much snappier user experience than the 3000 / 3, and you would still not cannibalize the 4 series ... that much.

The BOM would be higher, I guess, but on the other hand more people might actually want to buy one.
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #108 on: April 28, 2020, 04:03:24 pm »

The BOM would be higher, I guess, but on the other hand more people might actually want to buy one.

A very astute observation Eric  8)
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Offline james_s

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #109 on: April 28, 2020, 05:05:02 pm »
Most of Tek's DSOs have been pretty lackluster, often hampered by weird design decisions and a slow architecture, and that includes the TDS700 Series. There were some bright spots, though, such as the TDS200 (which introduced the lunchbox format, allthough they weren't the only ones, Iwatsu had a similar scope back then which was rebaded by LeCroy), or the TDS3000 which could be battery operated. Still, both scopes were painfully slow, and aside from the form factor or battery didn't offer much over scopes from other brands. And the fact that Tek carried both well into the 2000's is testament to the general lack of innovation when it comes to scopes.

I don't really grasp what you mean by it being slow. I have a TDS3054 and a TDS784C and the only time I've ever noticed any kind of slowness in either one is using deep memory on the TDS784. The TDS3000 feels very snappy to me, what do I need to do to see this "painfully slow" lag you refer to? I'm genuinely curious and don't know what you're talking about. While I do like the TekProbe interface I'm not opposed to other scope brands, but aside from the very shallow memory depth by modern standards and the exorbitant pricing on the still-available C version I really haven't found any other complaints about the TDS3000 series. It's the perfect form factor and the controls are laid out very logically, I can set it up with my eyes closed. 
 

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #110 on: April 28, 2020, 10:54:21 pm »
I don't really grasp what you mean by it being slow. I have a TDS3054 and a TDS784C and the only time I've ever noticed any kind of slowness in either one is using deep memory on the TDS784. The TDS3000 feels very snappy to me, what do I need to do to see this "painfully slow" lag you refer to? I'm genuinely curious and don't know what you're talking about.
You're not the only one, I've always found the TDS3000 and TDS4000 Tek scopes to be perfectly usable. They're good balances with no extreme specs but no stinkers/drawbacks.
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #111 on: April 29, 2020, 02:29:19 am »
Surely you're exaggerating aren't you ??

No, I'm dead serious.

Quote
TDS700 brought out InstaVu with up to 400,000 waveform updates a second which could spot most glitches that other scopes were blind too. It was the forerunner to DPO which also was an industry first. You are right Tek built analog functionality into their digital scopes and now everyone is copying it !

Looks like someone drank the kool-aid ;)

InstaVu was a crutch where high update rates were achieved in a special mode using data reduction, and which made it impossible to run measurements or any other analysis on the waveform.

It was only an "industry first" in a sense that no-one else implemented such a mode, very likely because of it's limitations. At around the same time, HP came out with its first MegaZoom equipped scope (HP 54645A/D, the 'D' also being the "industry first" MSO), which achieved excessive update rates in normal operation, with no limitations on measurements.

And when it comes to emulating analog functionality, there simply is nothing which better resembles an analog scope than MegaZoom (if that's what you want). It's as simple as that.

Oh, and as far as finding rare glitches is concerned, you don't need high update rates for that if your scope has a decent trigger suite and the user knows how to operate it. The high waveform modes only existed because of analog scope users (Tek didn't understand the potential that was in DSOs; HP did very well, but designed the 54600 Series particularly for analog scope users wanting to migrate to a DSO). Other scopes were equally capable to find even the rarest glitch without high update rates, simply through extensive trigger and analysis suites.

Quote
For the new Tek MSO's I can see one advantage of that architecture that other people are not talking about in that you don't lose ADC resolution when you have more than one channel displayed on the screen at the one time.

Which scope loses ADC resolution when more than one channel is active?

That's not why you would use InstaVu. InstaVu was used to show up rarely occurring glitches that other scopes were blind to or may take hours sitting in front of the scope before  you would capture a single glitch ! And lets cut to the chase of the first megazoom scopes. What acquisition rates are you talking about here ? Please give us a figure ! Also later scopes such as TDS7000 allowed Fast Acquisition and measurements on the display at the same time.

Regarding ADC resolution if you scale the display to fit two or more channels stacked on the screen at the same time don't you automatically lose ADC resolution ? Apparently it is not an issue with the new Tek MSO scopes ;)

cheers
« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 02:33:03 am by snoopy »
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #112 on: April 29, 2020, 02:44:02 am »
Most of Tek's DSOs have been pretty lackluster, often hampered by weird design decisions and a slow architecture, and that includes the TDS700 Series. There were some bright spots, though, such as the TDS200 (which introduced the lunchbox format, allthough they weren't the only ones, Iwatsu had a similar scope back then which was rebaded by LeCroy), or the TDS3000 which could be battery operated. Still, both scopes were painfully slow, and aside from the form factor or battery didn't offer much over scopes from other brands. And the fact that Tek carried both well into the 2000's is testament to the general lack of innovation when it comes to scopes.

I don't really grasp what you mean by it being slow. I have a TDS3054 and a TDS784C and the only time I've ever noticed any kind of slowness in either one is using deep memory on the TDS784. The TDS3000 feels very snappy to me, what do I need to do to see this "painfully slow" lag you refer to? I'm genuinely curious and don't know what you're talking about. While I do like the TekProbe interface I'm not opposed to other scope brands, but aside from the very shallow memory depth by modern standards and the exorbitant pricing on the still-available C version I really haven't found any other complaints about the TDS3000 series. It's the perfect form factor and the controls are laid out very logically, I can set it up with my eyes closed.

Likewise I have a Tek TDS3012 optioned up to a 3052 and I feel the same as you. It is quick and very flexible.  I can even use my Tek active probes with it no problems ;) This is where Tek first commercialized its DPO technology in a lower cost form factor after the TDS500D and TDS700D when everyone else was playing catch up games for the next 20 years ! The TDS700 becomes very sluggish as you increase the memory depth unfortunately but I occasionally find its InstaVu, high-res mode and equivalent time sampling features very useful that are missed on other scopes even today ! Tek did equivalent time sampling better than anyone else ;)

cheers
 

Offline Eric_S

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #113 on: April 29, 2020, 05:20:43 am »
Regarding ADC resolution if you scale the display to fit two or more channels stacked on the screen at the same time don't you automatically lose ADC resolution ? Apparently it is not an issue with the new Tek MSO scopes ;)

cheers


No.

You utilize the total quantization of the ADC less though.
Our LeCroy MDA can show a dedicated window per channel. And I would guess all mid range/ high end LeCroys ... and Keysight Infiniiums?
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #114 on: April 29, 2020, 10:53:52 am »
I don't really grasp what you mean by it being slow. I have a TDS3054 and a TDS784C and the only time I've ever noticed any kind of slowness in either one is using deep memory on the TDS784. The TDS3000 feels very snappy to me, what do I need to do to see this "painfully slow" lag you refer to? I'm genuinely curious and don't know what you're talking about.

It's not about 'lag' or general controls. There isn't any input lag when operating the scope. But unfortunately the user interface isn't everything.

For example, try mask testing on the TDS3000. Or FFT. The TDS3000 is also slow when it comes to waveform rates, as in normal mode it's trigger rate is some 450 wfms/sec. This raises to 3k wfms/s or so in Fast trigger mode but then the sample memory (with 10kpts not exactly large) is limited to a measly 500pts. It's not a big problem if you can make it with the available trigger suite (which is quite good if the advanced trigger option is installed) but that doesn't change the fact that the scope *is* slow, and when used in an 'analog scope' manner (like searching for glitches through trace persistence) then it will perform poorly.

The TDS784C isn't much different, it's older and even slower. In normal mode the waveform update rate is some 150 wfms/s with a 500pts memory and infinite persistence. InstaVu raises the update rate to some 400k wfms/s, however this is purely a viewing mode (i.e. no math, no FFT). This isn't much of a problem as rare events can only reliably be found through triggers (even at 400k wfms/s your scope is blind >90% of the time) but still, it's slow. This is also visible in when running FFTs, mask tests or some more complex maths, all which slows it down, even though FFTs are quite small (64k? can't remember) and measurements are limited to just four.

The other thing is that if any Tek scope is busy doing stuff then it locks up the user interface.

Quote
While I do like the TekProbe interface I'm not opposed to other scope brands, but aside from the very shallow memory depth by modern standards and the exorbitant pricing on the still-available C version I really haven't found any other complaints about the TDS3000 series. It's the perfect form factor and the controls are laid out very logically, I can set it up with my eyes closed.

Well, glad you like it, and if that's what suits you then that's perfectly fine of course, I'm not saying you should move to something else.

But this is about the question why Tek has lost the plot so much that today they represent the bottom-of-the-barrel when it comes to A brands. And for that it's important to look at the big picture, i.e. not the self-congratulatory stuff on Tek's marketing brochures you seem to be so fixated at, but at how Tek's offerings compared to the competition and what the market wanted. And it's obvious that Tektronix wasn't very successful there.

And this is for several reasons. For one, Tektronix never really understood the implications of going digital with scopes. Back then when the first early DSOs came along, Tektronix has long been very successful with its analog scopes, and more or less dominated the market. It's engineering base was very loyal, and more or less agreed of the "Tek way" of what makes a good oscilloscope. Digital scopes were at first considered a short-lived faff, then a niche product. Later, when Tek decided that it, too, needs to offer digital scopes, it basically tried to copy the behavior of analog scopes, which was seen as the most important thing. And this is reflected throughout Tek's DSO portfolio over the years.

The problem however is that Tektronix never realized the potential which comes with digitization, all it wanted was making analog scope like digital scopes. In reality, analog-like behavior was certainly a driver for a less expensive standard bench scope, above that however customer expected some new advanced analysis and measurement capabilities. HP and LeCroy realized that, while Tek kept its focus on visual gimmicks like InstaVu and at the cost of functionality, missing the mark by a long shot.

The other mistake is the belief that the brand name would have enough pull to guarantee sufficient sales. Well, it didn't, at least not long enough. Customers were quite aware that over the same time the competition came out with a series of new products Tektronix pretty much just offered a simple re-has of its existing product lines. And this isn't just true for the TDS3000, the whole TDS line was dragged along, with little improvements, way beyond it's best-by date.

Since DSOs became a thing, most of the innovation happened outside Tek. That support quality also declined dramatically from the old analog days just helped to accelerate the downward spiral.

A couple of years ago when the MSO6 came out I had great hopes that the new Tek, being freed of Danaher, is turning things around, but the scope was as lackluster as it's predecessors. Rinse and repeat for all the new models.

It's a shame really, not only because Tek once made the best scopes (when they were analog) and it's quite sad to see the constant decline, it's also bad for us customers because it means there is one less viable competitor out there which could help to keep pressure on price excesses. Unfortunately Tek seems to be very ambitious when it comes to pricing, and we're now at a point where mentioning "Tektronix" when talking to a sales droid of any other T&M manufacturer only gets you a sad smile.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #115 on: April 29, 2020, 11:37:57 am »

InstaVu was a crutch where high update rates were achieved in a special mode using data reduction, and which made it impossible to run measurements or any other analysis on the waveform.

It was only an "industry first" in a sense that no-one else implemented such a mode, very likely because of it's limitations. At around the same time, HP came out with its first MegaZoom equipped scope (HP 54645A/D, the 'D' also being the "industry first" MSO), which achieved excessive update rates in normal operation, with no limitations on measurements.

And when it comes to emulating analog functionality, there simply is nothing which better resembles an analog scope than MegaZoom (if that's what you want). It's as simple as that.

That's not why you would use InstaVu. InstaVu was used to show up rarely occurring glitches that other scopes were blind to or may take hours sitting in front of the scope before  you would capture a single glitch !

So in which way is this different than any other high waveform rate technology like MegaZoom?

And while your trust in InstaVu is admirable, the reality is that even at 400k wfms/s your scope is still blind >90% of the time! Even scopes like the Keysight DSO-X3000T which achieve up to 1'030'000 waveforms/s are blind 89.70% of the time. Which means there is a 9 out of 10 chance your scope will miss an event on every acquisition.

Which means the *only* way to find rare events (or to make sure there are none!) is to use triggers.

And this is the reason why the only market segment that actually cares about update rates is the low-end/entry-level segment, mostly because this is what serves people coming from analog scopes and who prefer analog scope derived methodology. Above that, the update rate is pretty much irrelevant, and most high end scopes achieve only comparably low trigger rates. Which, again, doesn't matter, because no-one spends $3k on a scope to search for glitches by staring at a screen.

Quote
And lets cut to the chase of the first megazoom scopes. What acquisition rates are you talking about here ? Please give us a figure !

The original HP 54645A/D back then only had 200MSa/s, however it already offered 1Mpts memory. But this model did satisfy the needs of most engineers who came from a standard analog bench scope, which often had less than 100MHz BW anyways. The 54645 handled like an analog scope in normal mode, and could perform measurements and FFT on data captured.

Of course the TDS700 had higher sample rates and BWs, it was part of Tek's high end offerings and did cost a lot more than the HP 54645A/D. However, InstaVu worked with data decimation which notably reduced the amount of data that was used, which also means the waveform on the screen doesn't necessarily reflect the actual signal (bit like Peak Detect), something that isn't the case with MegaZoom.

Teh main point however is that for a scope in this class high update rates were pretty low on the list of expected functionality. It's a good example how Tek got the priorities wrong.

Quote
Also later scopes such as TDS7000 allowed Fast Acquisition and measurements on the display at the same time.

Yes, you can do measurements in Fast Acquisition mode, but you can't zoom, you can't use math, and the sample rate drops to 1.25GSa/s.

The TDS7000 is one more example how Tek missed the mark by ignoring analysis capabilities for a focus on update rates. And then dragged it along for way too many years.

Quote
Regarding ADC resolution if you scale the display to fit two or more channels stacked on the screen at the same time don't you automatically lose ADC resolution ? Apparently it is not an issue with the new Tek MSO scopes ;)

It's not an issue with *any* DSO! ADC resolution is completely independet on what is shown on the screen. It doesn't matter if you have one, two, three, four or eight traces, the ADC resolution doesn't change. Why should it?

But it's a perfect example of Tek's misleading marketing.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #116 on: April 29, 2020, 04:47:42 pm »
It's not an issue with *any* DSO! ADC resolution is completely independet on what is shown on the screen. It doesn't matter if you have one, two, three, four or eight traces, the ADC resolution doesn't change. Why should it?
It depends on how the traces are shown. If you take one grid and change the v/div so you can fit 4 traces you'll lose ADC resolution (and thus math precission). An alternative is to have multiple grids (split display) in which each trace can be shown at full height (IOW: using a lower v/div setting); in this case you won't lose ADC resolution. But this isn't a modern feature.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Eric_S

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #117 on: April 29, 2020, 06:37:11 pm »

It depends on how the traces are shown. If you take one grid and change the v/div so you can fit 4 traces you'll lose ADC resolution (and thus math precission). An alternative is to have multiple grids (split display) in which each trace can be shown at full height (IOW: using a lower v/div setting); in this case you won't lose ADC resolution. But this isn't a modern feature.


When people talk about the resolution of the ADC, why would they mean something to the tune of "ADC input voltage range utilization"? The concept can be important, but that is not really what I think people are talking about when they say that an Arduino Uno's got a 10bit ADC.
 

Offline jjoonathan

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #118 on: April 29, 2020, 07:10:29 pm »
I'm pretty sure he's talking about vertical interleaving in the Infiniium S. According to: https://www.arbenelux.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/comparing-high-resolution-oscilloscope-design-approaches-wp-1.pdf

2 Channels: 10bit 8GHz 20GS/s
4 Channels: 8bit 2.5GHz 5GS/s

Which is odd, because as phrased it looks like one configuration is strictly worse, rather than each configuration trading channels / bandwidth / resolution through vertical and horizontal interleaving. My best guess is that "10bit 20GS/s" only applies to a reduced bandwidth/channel configuration, the 8bit 5GS/s mode is a Keysight typo, and the Lecroy analysis is trying to maximize FUD by stirring the two together.

I don't really care who is right, I just enjoy watching monkeys throw poo at each other  :popcorn:
 

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #119 on: April 29, 2020, 11:41:18 pm »
It's not an issue with *any* DSO! ADC resolution is completely independet on what is shown on the screen. It doesn't matter if you have one, two, three, four or eight traces, the ADC resolution doesn't change. Why should it?
It depends on how the traces are shown. If you take one grid and change the v/div so you can fit 4 traces you'll lose ADC resolution (and thus math precission). An alternative is to have multiple grids (split display) in which each trace can be shown at full height (IOW: using a lower v/div setting); in this case you won't lose ADC resolution. But this isn't a modern feature.
Indeed, not a modern feature, but a useful one that is only just starting to become commonly available (possibly related to the increase in display resolutions making the problem more obvious).
 

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #120 on: April 29, 2020, 11:56:12 pm »
I don't really grasp what you mean by it being slow. I have a TDS3054 and a TDS784C and the only time I've ever noticed any kind of slowness in either one is using deep memory on the TDS784. The TDS3000 feels very snappy to me, what do I need to do to see this "painfully slow" lag you refer to? I'm genuinely curious and don't know what you're talking about.

It's not about 'lag' or general controls. There isn't any input lag when operating the scope. But unfortunately the user interface isn't everything.

For example, try mask testing on the TDS3000. Or FFT. The TDS3000 is also slow when it comes to waveform rates, as in normal mode it's trigger rate is some 450 wfms/sec. This raises to 3k wfms/s or so in Fast trigger mode but then the sample memory (with 10kpts not exactly large) is limited to a measly 500pts. It's not a big problem if you can make it with the available trigger suite (which is quite good if the advanced trigger option is installed) but that doesn't change the fact that the scope *is* slow, and when used in an 'analog scope' manner (like searching for glitches through trace persistence) then it will perform poorly.
Slow waveform update rates make it bad, got it...
So in which way is this different than any other high waveform rate technology like MegaZoom?

And while your trust in InstaVu is admirable, the reality is that even at 400k wfms/s your scope is still blind >90% of the time! Even scopes like the Keysight DSO-X3000T which achieve up to 1'030'000 waveforms/s are blind 89.70% of the time. Which means there is a 9 out of 10 chance your scope will miss an event on every acquisition.

Which means the *only* way to find rare events (or to make sure there are none!) is to use triggers
Wait, waveform update rates are useless? (others will disagree on this point). Wash my fur but don't get me wet?

The reality is there is a balance, triggers can find some sorts of problems, and realtime viewing others, its all application specific and neither is better than the other for everything. You've been consistently coy about highlighting example applications or methods to enlighten us readers as to specific advantages. Ideally a scope would be capable in both areas, luckily those exist too.

The TDS700 becomes very sluggish as you increase the memory depth unfortunately but I occasionally find its InstaVu, high-res mode and equivalent time sampling features very useful that are missed on other scopes even today ! Tek did equivalent time sampling better than anyone else ;)
Equivalent time sampling is a great way to capture high speed signals with a slow ADC, but all the big manufacturers have ADCs fast enough at prices that it makes little sense anymore (the cost of front end and sampling needed would be close enough to cost of a full realtime sampling system). Instavu is an oddball, possibly more comparable to modern eye-diagram 2d histogram modes which are often a separate acquisition mode with limitations etc, but similarly aimed at collecting statistical measures and outliers as quickly as possible.
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #121 on: April 30, 2020, 02:03:22 am »

InstaVu was a crutch where high update rates were achieved in a special mode using data reduction, and which made it impossible to run measurements or any other analysis on the waveform.

It was only an "industry first" in a sense that no-one else implemented such a mode, very likely because of it's limitations. At around the same time, HP came out with its first MegaZoom equipped scope (HP 54645A/D, the 'D' also being the "industry first" MSO), which achieved excessive update rates in normal operation, with no limitations on measurements.

And when it comes to emulating analog functionality, there simply is nothing which better resembles an analog scope than MegaZoom (if that's what you want). It's as simple as that.

That's not why you would use InstaVu. InstaVu was used to show up rarely occurring glitches that other scopes were blind to or may take hours sitting in front of the scope before  you would capture a single glitch !

So in which way is this different than any other high waveform rate technology like MegaZoom?

And while your trust in InstaVu is admirable, the reality is that even at 400k wfms/s your scope is still blind >90% of the time! Even scopes like the Keysight DSO-X3000T which achieve up to 1'030'000 waveforms/s are blind 89.70% of the time. Which means there is a 9 out of 10 chance your scope will miss an event on every acquisition.

Which means the *only* way to find rare events (or to make sure there are none!) is to use triggers.

And this is the reason why the only market segment that actually cares about update rates is the low-end/entry-level segment, mostly because this is what serves people coming from analog scopes and who prefer analog scope derived methodology. Above that, the update rate is pretty much irrelevant, and most high end scopes achieve only comparably low trigger rates. Which, again, doesn't matter, because no-one spends $3k on a scope to search for glitches by staring at a screen.


Yes but you have to know what kind of glitch to trigger on otherwise you are poking around in the dark and that's if you even have the ability to trigger on it ! But you still didn't answer my question about the original megazoom acquisition rate ? Be interested to know ;) Here is a comparison between an early Tek scope and apparently still current model Keysight scope ! Not bad for a mid 90's Tek scope ;)

https://youtu.be/uUM7UDWifWw?t=1809

 

Offline snoopy

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #122 on: April 30, 2020, 02:11:56 am »

It depends on how the traces are shown. If you take one grid and change the v/div so you can fit 4 traces you'll lose ADC resolution (and thus math precission). An alternative is to have multiple grids (split display) in which each trace can be shown at full height (IOW: using a lower v/div setting); in this case you won't lose ADC resolution. But this isn't a modern feature.


When people talk about the resolution of the ADC, why would they mean something to the tune of "ADC input voltage range utilization"? The concept can be important, but that is not really what I think people are talking about when they say that an Arduino Uno's got a 10bit ADC.

More correctly it's about dynamic range. If you have to cram 4 waveforms stacked on the screen at the one time you have to attenuate the signals to the ADC's to make them fit on the screen. So because of this you are using less dynamic range of the ADC and adding more quantization noise, thus effectively reducing the bit depth or effective number of bits ! Apparently the new Tek MSO's don't suffer from this scaling issue. Not sure about the other scope offerings. Maybe some others can enlighten us ;)

cheers
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #123 on: April 30, 2020, 08:49:28 am »

It depends on how the traces are shown. If you take one grid and change the v/div so you can fit 4 traces you'll lose ADC resolution (and thus math precission). An alternative is to have multiple grids (split display) in which each trace can be shown at full height (IOW: using a lower v/div setting); in this case you won't lose ADC resolution. But this isn't a modern feature.
When people talk about the resolution of the ADC, why would they mean something to the tune of "ADC input voltage range utilization"? The concept can be important, but that is not really what I think people are talking about when they say that an Arduino Uno's got a 10bit ADC.
More correctly it's about dynamic range. If you have to cram 4 waveforms stacked on the screen at the one time you have to attenuate the signals to the ADC's to make them fit on the screen. So because of this you are using less dynamic range of the ADC and adding more quantization noise, thus effectively reducing the bit depth or effective number of bits ! Apparently the new Tek MSO's don't suffer from this scaling issue. Not sure about the other scope offerings. Maybe some others can enlighten us ;)
IMHO you are trying to spread FUD here. I already explained how it works by using seperate grids (which has been around for decades).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Tektronix 3 Series MDO
« Reply #124 on: April 30, 2020, 09:59:36 am »

InstaVu was a crutch where high update rates were achieved in a special mode using data reduction, and which made it impossible to run measurements or any other analysis on the waveform.

It was only an "industry first" in a sense that no-one else implemented such a mode, very likely because of it's limitations. At around the same time, HP came out with its first MegaZoom equipped scope (HP 54645A/D, the 'D' also being the "industry first" MSO), which achieved excessive update rates in normal operation, with no limitations on measurements.

And when it comes to emulating analog functionality, there simply is nothing which better resembles an analog scope than MegaZoom (if that's what you want). It's as simple as that.

That's not why you would use InstaVu. InstaVu was used to show up rarely occurring glitches that other scopes were blind to or may take hours sitting in front of the scope before  you would capture a single glitch !

So in which way is this different than any other high waveform rate technology like MegaZoom?

And while your trust in InstaVu is admirable, the reality is that even at 400k wfms/s your scope is still blind >90% of the time! Even scopes like the Keysight DSO-X3000T which achieve up to 1'030'000 waveforms/s are blind 89.70% of the time. Which means there is a 9 out of 10 chance your scope will miss an event on every acquisition.

Which means the *only* way to find rare events (or to make sure there are none!) is to use triggers.

And this is the reason why the only market segment that actually cares about update rates is the low-end/entry-level segment, mostly because this is what serves people coming from analog scopes and who prefer analog scope derived methodology. Above that, the update rate is pretty much irrelevant, and most high end scopes achieve only comparably low trigger rates. Which, again, doesn't matter, because no-one spends $3k on a scope to search for glitches by staring at a screen.


Yes but you have to know what kind of glitch to trigger on otherwise you are poking around in the dark and that's if you even have the ability to trigger on it ! But you still didn't answer my question about the original megazoom acquisition rate ? Be interested to know ;) Here is a comparison between an early Tek scope and apparently still current model Keysight scope ! Not bad for a mid 90's Tek scope ;)

https://youtu.be/uUM7UDWifWw?t=1809

What "apparently still current model Keysight scope !", Agilent MSO6104A ?
That thing is dead and gone, replaced by MSOX3000 series many moons ago...

And what "magical glitches" are everybody talking about? Runts, too short pulses, dropouts, rise time anomalies ? What?
All of those are well covered by triggers. 
This was discussed ad nauseam many times, like Someone nicely said.
Using on screen persistence to capture signal anomalies can be used but has limited usability.
Only information you get is that you caught something, but not when and in correlation to what.
It can be used only as a proof that there are some anomalies, and hopefully give enough information for operator to devise triggering scenario to reliably capture such anomalies every time. So you can count how many are there, what is distribution and try to correlate with system state and other signals to try to find a source.
Also, if you don't catch anything on screen, it is NOT a proof all is well, because you maybe didn't wait long enough...

I personally use screen persistence, but first go through a set of well known triggers (rise time, pulse width, runt), that is really quick thing to do,  and if those don't catch anything, i might let it run in infinite persistence mode for few hours just to be sure...
You can also set mask mode, and use that too. Nobody mentions this in this context. But it is probably best way to do it. It is a built in anomaly detector, that will detect any deviation of the signal.  And it will give you much more info than display persistence, because it will give you stats and confidence interval...


 


 
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