New Siglent SDS1202X-E oscilloscope based on Xilinx Zynq-7000 SoC architecture

[zike]

@tautech pm sent

[tautech]

@tautech pm sent

Excellent.
Not so much a freeze as totally unresponsive to buttons, right ? Yet scope was still operating and refreshing the display. Hmmm
Un plug and repower fixed it right and no other incidences of it again ?

Forwarded to factory.

[zike]

@tautech Another freeze, this time while scrolling stored i2c stream in "stop" mode.  Check pm for vid.

Alas, time to reckon up; visiting Oz for work next couple weeks so no more opportunity for testing. I've played with the unit a total of about 3.5 hours since opening the box, and discovered ~ 5 fairly obvious bugs, one quite serious (total lockup, 2 occasions; that is, 4-5 times per 8-hour day on average). Let's work out the probability these flaws could be missed if the product had actually been tested.

RMA requested from Saelig.

Love the forum, will surely be back (on a different topic!) Til then,

Zike

[TK]

Do you own this scope?

Not yet.  What 'scope did your "potential customer" choose?

The micsig mini tablet scope with 4 channels

[tautech]

@tautech Another freeze, this time while scrolling stored i2c stream in "stop" mode.  Check pm for vid.

Alas, time to reckon up; visiting Oz for work next couple weeks so no more opportunity for testing. I've played with the unit a total of about 3.5 hours since opening the box, and discovered ~ 5 fairly obvious bugs, one quite serious (total lockup, 2 occasions; that is, 4-5 times per 8-hour day on average). Let's work out the probability these flaws could be missed if the product had actually been tested.

RMA requested from Saelig.

Love the forum, will surely be back (on a different topic!) Til then,

Zike

Thanks Zike for your feedback and videos, much appreciated.
As I mentioned previously I've not seen a lockup or freeze after a couple of hours of various types of usage.
Yours have both been while decoding and the second vid has some more clues as to why I think and the factory might be able to duplicate it.
I'm sorry you think you need to return it without waiting to see what improvements will be made with a firmware release.
Have a good trip to OZ, catchya soon. 

[kcbrown]

Thanks Zike for your feedback and videos, much appreciated.
As I mentioned previously I've not seen a lockup or freeze after a couple of hours of various types of usage.
Yours have both been while decoding and the second vid has some more clues as to why I think and the factory might be able to duplicate it.

Could you attempt to reproduce it using the info available in the vids?  If you try and can't reproduce it, then his unit may have a hardware flaw.  It would be useful to know if the issue really is firmware.

I'm sorry you think you need to return it without waiting to see what improvements will be made with a firmware release.
Have a good trip to OZ, catchya soon. 

Unfortunately, RMAs are a limited time option (most places give you 30 days at most, some only 15).  If he's heading out of country, then timing probably prevents him from keeping it.

[tautech]

Thanks Zike for your feedback and videos, much appreciated.
As I mentioned previously I've not seen a lockup or freeze after a couple of hours of various types of usage.
Yours have both been while decoding and the second vid has some more clues as to why I think and the factory might be able to duplicate it.

Could you attempt to reproduce it using the info available in the vids?  If you try and can't reproduce it, then his unit may have a hardware flaw.  It would be useful to know if the issue really is firmware.

I could but I'd rather pass it straight to the engineers whom are paid to sort problems out. If I get time, maybe.

Unfortunately, RMAs are a limited time option (most places give you 30 days at most, some only 15).  If he's heading out of country, then timing probably prevents him from keeping it.

Which only presumes one has no faith in Siglent implementing a fix. 
Again I thank Zike for his feedback but I'm disappointed he didn't give them the chance to remedy any problems.
I hope he can find a product that is as well featured for a similar price point that has NO bugs so shortly after release. Everything else newly released mentioned on the forum seems to have problems too.

[kcbrown]

Which only presumes one has no faith in Siglent implementing a fix. 

Not really.  Siglent implementing a firmware fix in a reasonable amount of time is the only situation where it makes sense for him to keep it.  But there's no way for him to know ahead of time if that will happen.  It presumes that, firstly, the issue is a firmware issue in the first place and, secondly, that it is easily reproducible and, thirdly, that Siglent maintains its current pace of firmware releases (that last seems most likely, so I only mention it for completeness' sake).

If he keeps it and it turns out to be a hardware problem, then he'll end up having to send it in for warranty repair, which means he'll be without his scope for however long it takes for the repair center to fix the issue -- and that presumes they don't simply end up sending it back to him unmodified as a result of not being able to reproduce the issue themselves.

If he RMAs it now and it turns out to be a firmware issue, he can acquire a new one once the issue is resolved.  If it turns out to be unreproducible (thus suggesting that it's a hardware issue), then he can acquire a new one once that determination has been made, knowing that his previous unit was faulty at the hardware level.

And finally, by RMAing the unit now, he can watch to see how Siglent handles things, to get a better feel for whether or not he can confidently reacquire one later, knowing that the manufacturer will stand behind it.


So the situation is what makes his decision the most logical one, even if one gives full benefit of the doubt to Siglent.  Put another way, it's something that would be sensible to do even if it were a Keysight unit.

Again I thank Zike for his feedback but I'm disappointed he didn't give them the chance to remedy any problems.

I suspect he would have if he weren't heading out of country (only he can answer that one, however). 

I hope he can find a product that is as well featured for a similar price point that has NO bugs so shortly after release. Everything else newly released mentioned on the forum seems to have problems too.

No doubt.  Even the new R&S scope, which commands a much higher price, seems to have issues.   It'll be very interesting indeed to see how the respective manufacturers handle this.

[tautech]

Linking this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds-1202x-e-review-on-youtube/

[Fungus]

I hope he can find a product that is as well featured for a similar price point that has NO bugs so shortly after release. Everything else newly released mentioned on the forum seems to have problems too.

No doubt.  Even the new R&S scope, which commands a much higher price, seems to have issues.   It'll be very interesting indeed to see how the respective manufacturers handle this.

From what I've seen so far: I actually think the Rigol DS1054Z had less issues on launch. So much for big brand names.

[boggis the cat]

From what I've seen so far: I actually think the Rigol DS1054Z had less issues on launch. So much for big brand names.

Unfortunately, there is pressure to release products when they are still incomplete.  The drawback of firmware updates is that manufacturers are able push out such products along with a promise to fix the issues.  If the product doesn't sell well, or a show-stopper hardware problem is present, then you may never get a functionally complete device.

This certainly also occurs with digital cameras, and I would guess any products that sell in similar low volumes (compared to mass market consumer products).

I do wonder why no manufacturer has tried an 'open source' type of product.  Sell decent hardware with minimal capabilities, and cut the development cost.  Let end users tinker with it and expand the capability.  Possibly roll some of those features in to new manufacturer releases of the firmware.

[zike]

Idle moment en route, couldn’t help checking in… thanks for everyone’s concern!

I did not mean to suggest what anyone else should do/buy/not buy; nor do I think anyone else actually means to advise me how to invest my time (!?)

Re: cutting losses and returning the unit, imminent travel’s a red herring. Saeilig is a highly reputable firm; they would certainly honor return of a defective product under any reasonable circumstances. (Yes, they covered return shipping.)

We all underestimate the value of our time. For example, I put all of my free time over about 3 days into this subject. That’s about ~0.05% of my probable remaining lifespan.  Unless it’s the very thing that gives you pleasure, set a time limit and stick to it.

I mentioned cultural norms of our epoch. Clearly, manufacturers do now expect customers to beta test their products for free (actually, to pay for the privilege!). Some understandable reasons; products more capable and complex, short product life cycles compress development, low margins. Expectations surely must differ between instruments that cost the annual salary of the end user, and ones that cost a few bags of groceries.

OTOH, think about the moral hazard. Accepting any product unfit for use reinforces corporate disregard for quality; if they can make a profit that way, of course they will. As hinted above, it may not be just firmware that’s neglected. Sure, future buyers may benefit incrementally if we all peck away randomly to debug the product (without benefit of design documentation!), AND if the company eventually responds. But it will never be as good as if the makers actually took pride in their work.

So please, for the _true_ benefit of future generations: if you’re unfortunate enough to buy a shoddy half-baked term project dressed up as a test instrument, send it right back. Doing otherwise reinforces the message that zero quality is a good business plan.

And, as you point out, we're all reaping the reward.

Again I thank Zike for his feedback but I'm disappointed he didn't give them the chance to remedy any problems.
I hope he can find a product that is as well featured for a similar price point that has NO bugs so shortly after release. Everything else newly released mentioned on the forum seems to have problems too.

[nctnico]

So please, for the _true_ benefit of future generations: if you’re unfortunate enough to buy a shoddy half-baked term project dressed up as a test instrument, send it right back. Doing otherwise reinforces the message that zero quality is a good business plan.

So true.  Believing Siglent would fix their firmware within a reasonable timeframe has cost me over 1700 euros a couple of years ago (AND I had to buy a piece of equipment which did work to get the job done so double whammy).

[stj]

[I do wonder why no manufacturer has tried an 'open source' type of product.  Sell decent hardware with minimal capabilities, and cut the development cost.  Let end users tinker with it and expand the capability

some of the chinese mobile fone makers like xiaomi sort of do that.
they sell fones with unlocked bootloader and share the sourcecode and even have a dev forum with links to other peoples custom roms.
i have a xiaomi MI4 and would NEVER swap it for a Samsung / Crapple fone - NEVER!! 

[Loboscope]

I have the new 1202X-E now for a few days on my bench. and at a first try and look it gives a good impression.

It starts fast, in less than 15 seconds and it is really fast and responsive. The grid aera is a bit grater than the grid aera of the Rigol DS1104Z (which I own too) with a 14x8 graticule (1104Z = 12x8).
For me,the UI of the Siglent is easier to use and more clearly arranged. The possibility to choose specific measurements - and to deselect them individually! - is a lot more simple and convenient than at the Rigol. Also the screen is a lot more tidy and less crowded than the Rigol. Not to mention the individual controls for the channels.

BUT: I found another bug or malfunction, at least a feature that is until now implemented in an insufficient way: the xy-mode!
It is incredible slow. I tested it spontaneously with a Lissajous-pattern of two frequencies, 1 KHz and 3 KHz and you will know the resulting pattern which is stable. Now I detuned the frequencies a bit, for example 1 KHz and 3,01 KHz and the pattern will move now. But the update rate of the Siglent is only 2 Hz at maximum. So the Pattern will not move continuously but it will jump any 0,5 sec. And above all the trace is incredible thick an fat. By this, the xy-mode will not be usable for tuning frequencies, it will certainly not be usable at all.
The Rigol does it well and even my very old and ultra-simple GDS-1022 will perform the xy-mode exemplary, even a bit better than the Rigol!!!
So it cannot be a lack of ´engine power´ (the Xilinx should outperform both, the Rigol and certainly the GDS-1022), but it must be a bad implementation in the software  .

Is there any hope that it will be implemented soon in a better way so that the xy-mode will work as it should?

[tautech]

I have the new 1202X-E now for a few days on my bench. and at a first try and look it gives a good impression.

It starts fast, in less than 15 seconds and it is really fast and responsive. The grid aera is a bit grater than the grid aera of the Rigol DS1104Z (which I own too) with a 14x8 graticule (1104Z = 12x8).
For me,the UI of the Siglent is easier to use and more clearly arranged. The possibility to choose specific measurements - and to deselect them individually! - is a lot more simple and convenient than at the Rigol. Also the screen is a lot more tidy and less crowded than the Rigol. Not to mention the individual controls for the channels.

BUT: I found another bug or malfunction, at least a feature that is until now implemented in an insufficient way: the xy-mode!
It is incredible slow. I tested it spontaneously with a Lissajous-pattern of two frequencies, 1 KHz and 3 KHz and you will know the resulting pattern which is stable. Now I detuned the frequencies a bit, for example 1 KHz and 3,01 KHz and the pattern will move now. But the update rate of the Siglent is only 2 Hz at maximum. So the Pattern will not move continuously but it will jump any 0,5 sec. And above all the trace is incredible thick an fat. By this, the xy-mode will not be usable for tuning frequencies, it will certainly not be usable at all.
The Rigol does it well and even my very old and ultra-simple GDS-1022 will perform the xy-mode exemplary, even a bit better than the Rigol!!!
So it cannot be a lack of ´engine power´ (the Xilinx should outperform both, the Rigol and certainly the GDS-1022), but it must be a bad implementation in the software  .

Is there any hope that it will be implemented soon in a better way so that the xy-mode will work as it should?

We can hope it has already been reported, however it will be again. Thanks for your feedback. 

[ebclr]

Be ready, this is only the beginning of you journey to amazing well made Siglent firmware.

You is the usability tester that they didn't employ, and maybe they will do something about when they have some spare time.

[Fungus]

Be ready, this is only the beginning of you journey to amazing well made Siglent firmware.

You is the usability tester that they didn't employ, and maybe they will do something about when they have some spare time.

If this was Rigol the topic would be 100+ pages long by now. 

We can hope it has already been reported, however it will be again. Thanks for your feedback. 

eg. He wouldn't have said that in a Rigol thread. 

[ebclr]

Do you believe that Rigols have 100 times more users?

[Fungus]

Do you believe that Rigols have 100 times more users?

Most of the posts in the Rigol threads are the result of half a dozen haters.

In this thread the exact same people are acting with tolerance and patience because it says "Siglent" on the front. I just wanted to point that out.

[ebastler]

Do you believe that Rigols have 100 times more users?

Actually yes, I would assume that the DS1000Z series easily has 100 times more users than the Siglent SDS1000X-E series. The Rigol has been in the market for a few years and has apparently been selling very successfully, while the Siglent is just out.

Given that, this Siglent thread is actually disproportionately long. That might be due to an ample supply of bugs, or due to big excitement over the new product. 

[nctnico]

Do you believe that Rigols have 100 times more users?

Actually yes, I would assume that the DS1000Z series easily has 100 times more users than the Siglent SDS1000X-E series. The Rigol has been in the market for a few years and has apparently been selling very successfully, while the Siglent is just out.

IMHO the hackability of the DS1054Z has played a large role. Being able to get something for free which otherwise costs $1000 extra was just too much for many to handle.

[rstofer]

Do you believe that Rigols have 100 times more users?

The topic Siglent is brand new, how many copies could there be in the wild?

As to the DS1054Z, I watched the inventory levels at Tequipment and it seemed like they were selling about 1000 per week.  And they are only one supplier and the scope has been out for a couple of years.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that there are a hundred thousand DS1054Zs in the wild.  Maybe more...

I also wouldn't be surprised to find that it is the highest selling scope of all time.

The new Siglent is interesting because of the bandwidth and, maybe, better implementations of the UI, decoding and FFT.  We'll see.

[Fungus]

Actually yes, I would assume that the DS1000Z series easily has 100 times more users than the Siglent SDS1000X-E series.

100? More like 10,000x more.

[ebastler]

Actually yes, I would assume that the DS1000Z series easily has 100 times more users than the Siglent SDS1000X-E series.

100? More like 10,000x more.

Maybe. As in "easily 100 times more", right?