new RIGOL DS1000Z and... MSO4000

[Electro Fan]

Ok, how about one of these Breakout Boxes to enable the scope to access nice probe points so the scope could monitor the flow of communications between two PCs?  (It would require two DB25 to DB9 adapter cables.)

PC RS232 port - DB9 Cable to DB 25 Adapter cable - Breakout Box - DB 25 to DB9 Adapter Cable - PC S232 Port

The DS1000Z could probe the Breakout Box?  (I think the jumper cable connection points near the switches could be viable probe points, right?)

Seems like the LEDs on the box might provide some value-added info (and the switches and jumper cables might provide some extra flexibility).  The box sells for about $25.  Anyone have any experience with one of these?  Or maybe someone has a better way of providing a scope with wire by wire tap points into a live RS232 communications flow?

Thanks!
----- 


Pocket-Sized RS-232/Serial Break Out Box

RS232 is a data signal standard used in many computer serial ports for connection between terminals and data communications equipment, such as modems and other communications devices. These boxes are pocket-sized for convenience and easy transportation, providing you with an on-the-go RS232 break out and testing solution. Furthermore, the box features 24 switches for circuit break out and reconfiguration/patching of 24 active positions. Using these boxes, you can enjoy the highest quality connection testing and configuration experience that only superior boxes can deliver.

Typical Applications:
RS232 circuit break out.
RS232 reconfiguring/patching.
RS232 signal, wire, and circuit testing/monitoring.

Features:

Access to all RS232/V.24 circuits
Twelve LED's to monitor key circuit isolation
Test points on each side of the switches to enable cross patching with jumper leads
Device is used to test and rewire RS232 interface. Put the RS232 connector cable that comes out of the box and plug it into the port of the interface card.
There are 10 interface signal powered LED's to permanently monitor TD, RD, RTS, CTS, DSR, CD, TC, RC, DTR, (E)TC and two LED's for spare.
24 miniature switches enable you to break out circuits or reconfigure and patch any or all of the 24 active positions.
No extra power required.
20 piece jumper cables included.

[Mark_O]

Ok, how about one of these Breakout Boxes to enable the scope to access nice probe points so the scope could monitor the flow of communications between two PCs?

Yep, that would work fine.

(It would require two DB25 to DB9 adapter cables.)

That's the only hassle, and a bit of extra expense, as well.

The DS1000Z could probe the Breakout Box?  (I think the jumper cable connection points near the switches could be viable probe points, right?)

Yes.

Seems like the LEDs on the box might provide some value-added info (and the switches and jumper cables might provide some extra flexibility).

Certainly. 

The box sells for about $25.  Anyone have any experience with one of these?

I've used several, they work just fine (which is why I suggested them to you in the first place), and 25 bucks is very reasonable (ignoring the extra adapter cable requirement).

Or maybe someone has a better way of providing a scope with wire by wire tap points into a live RS232 communications flow?

Well, as I mentioned, if you have (or can find) a DB9 serial cable with screwed together shells on the ends (instead of the usual molded), you can just take the screws out on one end, pop off the shell halves, and the signal lines are right there to tap in to.  Cheaper, simpler, and less to muck around with, or get lost.

[Electro Fan]

Ok, how about one of these Breakout Boxes to enable the scope to access nice probe points so the scope could monitor the flow of communications between two PCs?

Yep, that would work fine.

(It would require two DB25 to DB9 adapter cables.)

That's the only hassle, and a bit of extra expense, as well.

The DS1000Z could probe the Breakout Box?  (I think the jumper cable connection points near the switches could be viable probe points, right?)

Yes.

Seems like the LEDs on the box might provide some value-added info (and the switches and jumper cables might provide some extra flexibility).

Certainly. 

The box sells for about $25.  Anyone have any experience with one of these?

I've used several, they work just fine (which is why I suggested them to you in the first place), and 25 bucks is very reasonable (ignoring the extra adapter cable requirement).

Or maybe someone has a better way of providing a scope with wire by wire tap points into a live RS232 communications flow?

Well, as I mentioned, if you have (or can find) a DB9 serial cable with screwed together shells on the ends (instead of the usual molded), you can just take the screws out on one end, pop off the shell halves, and the signal lines are right there to tap in to.  Cheaper, simpler, and less to muck around with, or get lost.

Cool - looks like other than the finding older style/screwed together shell connectors on a cable the breakout box plus the adapter cables will be the lowest cost solution and for a few $ more it might provide some extra functionality and flexibility. 

The study of RS232 and related scope learning will move forward accordingly

Thanks!

[Electro Fan]

New question, about the USBee SX.  Apparently it will handle voltages up to 5V; the RS232 signals I've been decoding out of the PC are roughly +/-7V (about 14V peak to peak). 

In the USB Suite Manual it says:
Please note that the USBee Test Pod digital inputs are strictly 0-5V levels. Any voltage outside this range on the signals will damage the pod and may damage your hardware. If your system uses different voltage levels, you must buffer the signals externally to the USBee Test Pod before connecting the signals to the unit.

Maybe the USB is good for embedded RS232 but maybe not for analyzing data out of a PC port?  (Or what's the easiest way to buffer signals down to 0-5V levels?)

Thanks

[Sparky]

(Or what's the easiest way to buffer signals down to 0-5V levels?)

Something like this might suit your need: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/449

[Phili76]

And you will need two of them for each line.

Philipp

[Electro Fan]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-to-SPI-I2C-UART-TTL-ISP-Multifunction-USB-serial-communication-RS232-/300917008132?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46100d2704#ht_4535wt_819

Any chance one of these might be a worthwhile test fixture for experimenting (scope decoding, etc.) with I2C and SPI (and RS232)?

(software user interface and documentation? might be tough unless you have some Chinese language skills)

[Mark_O]

Good news.

The Programming Guide for the DS1000Z series is finally available, on the Rigol International site.  It's Dated Dec02'13.

I've been waiting for this to show up, and I haven't had an opportunity to go through it yet.  I was just about to email Drieg and ask if he could find out when it might arrive, and decided to go look once more before inquiring.   

[Dave Turner]

I used to use a passive breakout box configured by jumper leads. No led's or power requirements. It was used to confirm/access cable pinouts, and occasionally to temporarily convert straight through to crossover cable and vice versa.

This type of device is probably ideal for you. I'm sure they are still available.

[Mark_O]

The Programming Guide for the DS1000Z series is finally available, on the Rigol International site.  It's Dated Dec02'13.

I've been waiting for this to show up, and I haven't had an opportunity to go through it yet. 

I had a chance to take a quick look, and compare it against the DS2000-series, as a 'reference standard'.

+  IEEE488.2 Common Commands: adds *WAI
+  :REFerence Commands
+  [:SOURce[<n>]] Commands (DS1000Z-S Only)

-  :TLHAlf
-  :BUS<n> Subsystem   
~  :CALCulate Subsystem   (uses :MATH instead, why?)
-  :FUNCtion Subsystem   
-  :LAN Subsystem   
-  :WAVeform Subsystem   
-    :WAVeform:POINts
-    :WAVeform:BEGin
-    :WAVeform:END
-    :WAVeform:RESet
-    :WAVeform:STATus?

I'd be curious to hear from marmad what effect these differences would have on RUU (beyond the lack of support for Channels 3 & 4).

Also, I'm not clear that the information for either the 1000z or 2000 is actually correct and complete?  E.g., the 2000 has no :REF commands?  Seems odd.  Similarly, the 1000Z may support commands that are not documented.  One would certainly hope so, because loss of the :BUS commands would be unpleasant, and loss of the :FUNC commands means no support for the Record function at all.   

Lastly, I'm unsure which command(s) are used to select each segment in a recorded set, so their data can be transferred to a PC.  So I'm wondering if that's even possible on the 1000Z, as documented?

I haven't done a deep dive into the lower details yet, so there may be other incompatibilities lurking, to be discovered. 

[marmad]

I had already taken a quick look through the 1000Z Programming Guide and had noticed what appears to be large changes to the WAVeform reading routines. On the DS2000/4000/6000 models those routines are identical: the DSO uses a 2MB buffer to store packets of waveform data to send to the PC, which polls it to find out how many bytes are ready - or whether the current transfer is finished. They appear to have gotten rid of these commands (and perhaps the buffer?) on the DS1000Z - which would - along with the lack of the FUNC subsystem - make integration within RUU considerably more complicated (as opposed to just checking the model number, as I did to make the DS4000 work with the software).

Lastly, I'm unsure which command(s) are used to select each segment in a recorded set, so their data can be transferred to a PC.  So I'm wondering if that's even possible on the 1000Z, as documented?

Documented where? One of the big weaknesses of the entire UltraVision line is the inability to save and load segments (i.e. frames) - and no easy routines for doing it.

[Mark_O]

Thanks for the info, marmad.

I had already taken a quick look through the 1000Z Programming Guide and had noticed what appears to be large changes to the WAVeform reading routines. On the DS2000/4000/6000 models those routines are identical: the DSO uses a 2MB buffer to store packets of waveform data to send to the PC, which polls it to find out how many bytes are ready - or whether the current transfer is finished. They appear to have gotten rid of these commands (and perhaps the buffer?) on the DS1000Z - which would - along with the lack of the FUNC subsystem - make integration within RUU considerably more complicated (as opposed to just checking the model number, as I did to make the DS4000 work with the software).

That's very disappointing.  I thought the lack of :WAV:POINTS was non-critical, because :WAV:START/STOP could be used to set the bounds, and thus the point count.  And yes, the lack of :WAV:BEGIN/END/STA means the fast, buffered transfers could not be handled in that way. 

But does the 2000 really lack any :REF manipulation commands?  That seems odd.

Documented where? One of the big weaknesses of the entire UltraVision line is the inability to save and load segments (i.e. frames) - and no easy routines for doing it.

As for transferring to a PC, I thought RUU could do that?  As far as saving & loading segments, heck, the 1000Z can't even Save a simple 1M capture to a memory stick.  There's apparently a bug that causes it to crap out at about 100K.

[marmad]

But does the 2000 really lack any :REF manipulation commands?  That seems odd.

I had never noticed before, but it appears (looking through the manual) that you're correct. Although I'm not quite sure what use there might be in manipulating those externally - they're basically just trace images superimposed on the display for visual comparison - they have no measurable or quantifiable properties.

As for transferring to a PC, I thought RUU could do that?

Yes, RUU can transfer (and save) segments - but there is no way to ever get them back into the DSO.

heck, the 1000Z can't even Save a simple 1M capture to a memory stick.  There's apparently a bug that causes it to crap out at about 100K.

Well, I imagine Rigol will fix the bugs involving file handling. The DS2000 had some transfer bugs that weren't fixed until the 2nd FW release.

[Mark_O]

I had a chance to take a quick look, and compare it against the DS2000-series, as a 'reference standard'.

...apparently missing functions
-  :BUS<n> Subsystem   
-  :FUNCtion Subsystem   

Also, I'm not clear that the information for either the 1000z or 2000 is actually correct and complete?  ...the 1000Z may support commands that are not documented.  One would certainly hope so, because loss of the :BUS commands would be unpleasant, and loss of the :FUNC commands means no support for the Record function at all.   

Has anyone with a DS1074Z had a chance to send SCPI commands to it, and see how it responds (if at all) to :BUS and :FUNC commands?  Those would be serious omissions in support.

[marmad]

Has anyone with a DS1074Z had a chance to send SCPI commands to it, and see how it responds (if at all) to :BUS and :FUNC commands?  Those would be serious omissions in support.

Rigol seems to be bad about keeping up to date with their literature. I've recently been working on RUU and tested the REF commands on the DS2000 - and they work fine (although with slightly different syntax and extra commands thrown in as compared to the DS1000Z). The only thing I can't implement for REF is the IMPORT and EXPORT functions - perhaps they exist, but if so, I haven't discovered the syntax or commands for them.

I've also found quite a few other totally undocumented commands that aren't in the prog. manual - so it's quite likely BUS and FUNC will function on the DS1000Z - although lacking some functionality and with possibly different syntax.

[Mark_O]

Rigol seems to be bad about keeping up to date with their literature. I've recently been working on RUU and tested the REF commands on the DS2000 - and they work fine (although with slightly different syntax and extra commands thrown in as compared to the DS1000Z). The only thing I can't implement for REF is the IMPORT and EXPORT functions - perhaps they exist, but if so, I haven't discovered the syntax or commands for them.

Thanks, marmad.  I agree about Rigol and updated literature.  And this IS their very first release of the Programming document for the 1000Z-family.  Glad to hear the 2000 does have some variant of the :REF command.

We found similar situations back in the olden days of the 1000E/1000D, with SCPI commsnd in the units that worked fine, but didn't show up in the document until the 2nd or 3rd Rev.  (As much as a year later.   )

I've also found quite a few other totally undocumented commands that aren't in the prog. manual - so it's quite likely BUS and FUNC will function on the DS1000Z - although lacking some functionality and with possibly different syntax.

This is what I would hope to be the case.  Unfortunately, the latest firmware rev distribution (for the 1000Z)  is processed so that the clear text is no longer visible.

[marmad]

There don't seem to be any current DS1000Z/DS1074Z threads, so I'll post this in a couple of places to try to get the info:

I'm expanding my Rigol UltraVision Utilities (RUU) to include the DS1000Z series. I'm almost finished, but since I don't own the DSO I'd appreciate some help with the following:

In the DS4000 series, 250 values from the ADC are mapped to the 400 vertical bits of the display, but in the DS2000 series, the DSO crops that for the display and uses just 200 values. This allows you (in RUU) to expand the display to 10 divs to see 250 values.

I suspect the DS1000Z series is the same as the DS2000 (it allows the DSO to get better wfrm/s), but I need an owner to test this for me. You only have to do the following:

Input a signal and fine-adjust the vertical scale until the signal expands beyond the edges of the screen <=1 div (as in image #1).
STOP the DSO.
Reduce the vertical scale.
If there is headroom, you will see the full waveform (as in image #2).
If there is no headroom, you will see a clipped waveform (as in image #3).

Thanks in advance!

[iloveelectronics]

I have a DS-1104Z. It behaves like your image #3.

[marmad]

I have a DS-1104Z. It behaves like your image #3.

Thanks, iloveelectronics... I appreciate it.

[sync]

I make your test. It has headroom. See the first two pictures. But the headroom is asymmetrically. See the last two pictures. The amount of asymmetrically varies with different vertical scales. Maybe part of the DC offset compensation.

[marmad]

I make your test. It has headroom. See the first two pictures. But the headroom is asymmetrically. See the last two pictures. The amount of asymmetrically varies with different vertical scales. Maybe part of the DC offset compensation.

If your signal level was the same for all images (3V), then the headroom might the same (2 divs or 20% - same as DS2000). In the 300mV image, your signal would occupy 10 divs - so within range. In your 100mV image, your 3V signal would occupy 30 divs, so it would be extremely clipped. To test the 10 div scale at 100mv, you would need a signal < 1V & > 800mv

[sync]

If your signal level was the same for all images (3V), then the headroom is always the same: 2 divs or 20% (same as DS2000). In the 300mV image, your signal would occupy 10 divs - so within range. In your 100mV image, your 3V signal would occupy 30 divs, so it would be extremely clipped. To test the 10 div scale at 100mv, you would need a signal = 1V.

They were two different signals. Sorry, I didn't mention that. The signal of the first two pictures was a 3Vpp sine wave like yours. The last two pictures are from a 1.4V triangle wave.

[marmad]

If your signal level was the same for all images (3V), then the headroom is always the same: 2 divs or 20% (same as DS2000). In the 300mV image, your signal would occupy 10 divs - so within range. In your 100mV image, your 3V signal would occupy 30 divs, so it would be extremely clipped. To test the 10 div scale at 100mv, you would need a signal = 1V.

They were two different signals. Sorry, I didn't mention that. The signal of the first two pictures was a 3Vpp sine wave like yours. The last two pictures are from a 1.4V triangle wave.

Oh, ok - that makes sense. But this asymmetry is strange - I can't imagine what the point of doing that would be. And how / when does it kick in - and it's ratio to scale?

[Phili76]

Hi marmad,

I did the test on my DS1104Z-S, using the internal signal generator.
1V, 100mV/div, Signal complete,
1.1V, lower cutoff
1.2V even more lower cutoff

If I move the position in the negative direction the cutoff changes, positive is ok.
thanks
Philipp

[marmad]

Hi marmad,

I did the test on my DS1104Z-S, using the internal signal generator.
1V, 100mV/div, Signal complete,
1.1V, lower cutoff
1.2V even more lower cutoff

If I move the position in the negative direction the cutoff changes, positive is ok.
thanks
Philipp

Thanks, Philipp! So with your test and sync's, we've seen up to 6 divs over the current voltage scale (1.4V @ 100mv/div). Can I ask you to test 1.6V and 2V signals @ 100mV/div? That would be 2x and 2.5x the voltage scale (16 divs and 20 divs). I want to see when the signal clips at the top (I suspect it might be at > 2x scale).