new Oscilloscope choice

[RBBVNL9]

John / Hobbyelectronics,

Your Philips scopes seem to have supported you very long, which is great. I would suggest you ask yourself the question which of the current scopes you could buy, you would still happily be using in - say - 20 years from now.

I came from a HAMEG HM203-5, which I bought from my savings while still at high school, and served me for 30+ years. Later complemented that with a Tek 2465A, which I got for free and repaired/renovated.

Last year I wanted to upgrade my bench and bought an R&S RTB2004 (COM2) as well as quite a bit of other gear from R&S, Keysight, Keithley, Picoscope, Siglent, and Rigol. Of all of these instruments, it is the RTB oscilloscope I think I will be still be very happy with even 20 years from now. Such a time frame brings the total cost of ownership down a lot, even if the initial purchase price might be higher than other options.

Also, consider how 'mature' a device is. While 'perfect' devices do not seem to exist (anymore), as for the RTB, the various firmware upgrades addressed almost all of the known issues, and recent upgrades even brought useful new features, such as programmable low pass filters.

[tv84]

My budget is really not much more than around £1200 + VAT .

Go with the Siglent SDS2104X Plus. No brainer.

[Fungus]

I don't need the scope to be portable and prefer a 'proper' bench unit.

Micsigs can sit on benches, too.

Math functions and the like would also be really good

Math is one place the Micsigs really shine. You can type in just about any formula to operate on the four input channels:

[tv84]

Math is one place the Micsigs really shine. You can type in just about any formula to operate on the four input channels:

  Looks like they reused code from a calculator app...  Love a 4/3 * Pi * ch1 exp 3  !

[goaty]

I wonder what _real_ applications are for complex formula. I can understand calculating things like power (U*I), but much more than that seems just gimmick to me.

[Fungus]

Looks like they reused code from a calculator app...  Love a 4/3 * Pi * ch1 exp 3  !

You can actually use it as a calculator. Type in something like 12*sin(sqrt(2)) then look at the voltage display for the answer. 

[tatel]

Math functions and the like would also be really good, but I don't need a function generator or DCM built in so just a really good 2 (or 4) channel MSO would be what I am looking for I think?? with a big clear screen (Phosphor maybe?).
My budget is really not much more than around £1200 + VAT .

I myself have been looking for a MSO 'scope in the past weeks. I finally gave up about having MSO capabilities. Bought a cheap 4 channel GW Instek 'scope and DSLogic Plus instead. You have to be careful with any of the cheaper MSOs. You could buy a less-satisfactory-than-expected device. Please read carefully the user manual then ask on the forum for owner experiences before buying. Also, LA probes usually aren't included in the listed prices and aren't that cheap.

In your price range you have both Rigol 5000 and Siglent 2xxxX Plus. Both seem to be quite satisfactory. I have been on the brink of buying Siglent SDS2104X Plus. I think you'll find it more of an oscilloscope. Both seem to have working DIY LA pods now. Sorry, but both have AWG included, IIRC. Rigol's is said to be noisier than Siglent's, so you should think about it. Siglent memory management doesn't seem to be universally loved so you should check if you feel OK about this, too.

You'll be quite probably better buying it in the UK. Aside from what has been already said, which is correct BTW, right now I'm getting some unrelated stuff from an UK company and the courier is more of a pirate than Captain Kidd. They could ask you for a really unreasonable customs-paperwork-processing fee. Maybe you could say that you want to take care of it yourself, then the courier could do really unsatisfactory things with your shipment, like no giving the necessary customs documentation to you, and delay your parcel delivery under any excuse. Both happened to me. I have heard that this courier isn't the only one that practices "piracy"

Good luck

[2N3055]

I wonder what _real_ applications are for complex formula. I can understand calculating things like power (U*I), but much more than that seems just gimmick to me.

Real world applications are, for instance, linearization and translation of signals from sensor.

All math related things are not really used much if you only use scope for servicing and general "scoping" (let's see what do we have here... hmmm...).
They are useful when designing and reverse engineering circuits and systems, so you can "simulate" parts of the circuit (their transfer function, their behaviour) to test hypothesis.

[hgjdwx]

If you don't need 4 channels, you can buy the new Micsig STO2302C, with 300M bandwidth, 2G sampling rate and 280M storage depth

[hobbyelectronics]

Hi,

So much helpful information, that's really great, thanks

This might seem like a silly comment and maybe a bit old fashioned, but whenever I used my old scopes or any CRT based scopes I get the feeling of a true analogue display, which of course it is (pretty much).
Over the years I have used a few modern 'digital' scopes (as in not CRT) and the displays have always disappointed me and looked very digital with traces that look a bit sort of pixelated as if it was a low res old EGA or VGA display from the 80's.
I have never been wowed by the displays. That said, the only non CRT scope I have used in the last 5+ years is a Yokogawa high end very expensive oscilloscope which has an excellent display, but all previous non CRT scopes I have used, say in the last 10+ years have always felt a bit under developed and not really matured yet, from a display point of view.

It looks like the modern digital oscilloscopes have come a long way in the last few years, so hopefully something like a Siglent SDS2104X PLUS should be ok.

On the TELONIC site they have a Siglent SDS2104X PLUS ex demo in mint condition for £945 plus VAT.
To me that seems like a lot you get a lot for the money, and ticks a lot of boxes, but I also like the the R&S offerings as well.

It is difficult because unlike the old days, you could wonder into a shop and try these things, to get a feel for them.
I remember my brother saving up for months and months and I went with him to Edgeware road (London) to buy a scope from one of the many electronics shops that had them on display and you could try them on the bench.
He came out with an Hitachi oscilloscope, which served him very well for many years and he still uses it today.

Its seems that Keysight haven't really had a look in on this discussion and I get the feeling they the are not really thought much of on here for some reason?

My main use is for designing circuits from scratch rather than a servicing point of view, so a lot of the time some things are experimental and perhaps just to use the scope to prove a part of the circuit if doing what is expected rather fault finding non functioning boards from elsewhere.

Thanks

John

[goaty]

Due to the different processing principle and complexity of DSO, one must be always very careful to interpret results correctly.

I´m having big problems just now with segmented memory on RTB2000, because you think it will record whatever you throw at it,
But it does not tell you the re-arm time, which must be less than the frequency of your triggers expected.
This for example makes operation more challenging.

[2N3055]

Hi,

So much helpful information, that's really great, thanks

This might seem like a silly comment and maybe a bit old fashioned, but whenever I used my old scopes or any CRT based scopes I get the feeling of a true analogue display, which of course it is (pretty much).
Over the years I have used a few modern 'digital' scopes (as in not CRT) and the displays have always disappointed me and looked very digital with traces that look a bit sort of pixelated as if it was a low res old EGA or VGA display from the 80's.
I have never been wowed by the displays. That said, the only non CRT scope I have used in the last 5+ years is a Yokogawa high end very expensive oscilloscope which has an excellent display, but all previous non CRT scopes I have used, say in the last 10+ years have always felt a bit under developed and not really matured yet, from a display point of view.

It looks like the modern digital oscilloscopes have come a long way in the last few years, so hopefully something like a Siglent SDS2104X PLUS should be ok.

On the TELONIC site they have a Siglent SDS2104X PLUS ex demo in mint condition for £945 plus VAT.
To me that seems like a lot you get a lot for the money, and ticks a lot of boxes, but I also like the the R&S offerings as well.

It is difficult because unlike the old days, you could wonder into a shop and try these things, to get a feel for them.
I remember my brother saving up for months and months and I went with him to Edgeware road (London) to buy a scope from one of the many electronics shops that had them on display and you could try them on the bench.
He came out with an Hitachi oscilloscope, which served him very well for many years and he still uses it today.

Its seems that Keysight haven't really had a look in on this discussion and I get the feeling they the are not really thought much of on here for some reason?

My main use is for designing circuits from scratch rather than a servicing point of view, so a lot of the time some things are experimental and perhaps just to use the scope to prove a part of the circuit if doing what is expected rather fault finding non functioning boards from elsewhere.

Thanks

John

With everything you said so far, I am confident now to give you direct recommendation.  Go with that SDS2104X PLUS. That is good price, and that scope is great value for money already at retail price. It has some stuff that R&S doesn't, and vice versa, but is still being actively developed by Siglent, so it'll only get better. It can also be, ahem, "liberated" to 500MHz max bandwidth...  It has many advanced features.
Ideally you should try it out, of course...

[Fungus]

This might seem like a silly comment and maybe a bit old fashioned, but whenever I used my old scopes or any CRT based scopes I get the feeling of a true analogue display, which of course it is (pretty much).

It really is analog, there's no "pretty much" about it.

Over the years I have used a few modern 'digital' scopes (as in not CRT) and the displays have always disappointed me and looked very digital with traces that look a bit sort of pixelated as if it was a low res old EGA or VGA display from the 80's.

...which of course they are.

The ADCs inside them are only 8 bits (256 different values) so there's not much point in having "retina" displays. 

[mawyatt]

Hi,

So much helpful information, that's really great, thanks

This might seem like a silly comment and maybe a bit old fashioned, but whenever I used my old scopes or any CRT based scopes I get the feeling of a true analogue display, which of course it is (pretty much).
Over the years I have used a few modern 'digital' scopes (as in not CRT) and the displays have always disappointed me and looked very digital with traces that look a bit sort of pixelated as if it was a low res old EGA or VGA display from the 80's.
I have never been wowed by the displays. That said, the only non CRT scope I have used in the last 5+ years is a Yokogawa high end very expensive oscilloscope which has an excellent display, but all previous non CRT scopes I have used, say in the last 10+ years have always felt a bit under developed and not really matured yet, from a display point of view.

It looks like the modern digital oscilloscopes have come a long way in the last few years, so hopefully something like a Siglent SDS2104X PLUS should be ok.

On the TELONIC site they have a Siglent SDS2104X PLUS ex demo in mint condition for £945 plus VAT.
To me that seems like a lot you get a lot for the money, and ticks a lot of boxes, but I also like the the R&S offerings as well.

It is difficult because unlike the old days, you could wonder into a shop and try these things, to get a feel for them.
I remember my brother saving up for months and months and I went with him to Edgeware road (London) to buy a scope from one of the many electronics shops that had them on display and you could try them on the bench.
He came out with an Hitachi oscilloscope, which served him very well for many years and he still uses it today.

Its seems that Keysight haven't really had a look in on this discussion and I get the feeling they the are not really thought much of on here for some reason?

My main use is for designing circuits from scratch rather than a servicing point of view, so a lot of the time some things are experimental and perhaps just to use the scope to prove a part of the circuit if doing what is expected rather fault finding non functioning boards from elsewhere.

Thanks

John

I retired a couple years ago from a career that allowed me to use just about every Tektronix analog scope made. Later I didn't get much time in the lab since my time was considered more valuable (read making more $) sitting in front of a Cadence screen leveraging advanced IC technology rather than working in the lab, so I never got any real quality time with a DSO or MSO. What time I did get with these digital devices wasn't impressive and liked the old analog display from Tek much better. So soon after retiring I got a couple old Tek 2465 analog scopes which I repaired and now have fully functional, but wondered about the MSO and decided look into these. After a few months sifting thru all the BS and quality posts about MSOs, and beginning to "see" the individuals behind the posts, many of which are trashing devices they never even owned or spent significant time evaluating, decided on the Siglent SDS2XXXX Plus. Even had the misfortune of completely disassembling the MSO soon after arrival (long story), which gave a clear view of what's inside.

Bottom line is this MSO has delivered much more than expected, including the display, and the PCB and overall build quality is superb. Since I'm still involved in doing electronics research and development (consulting), so the features that some don't find useful I find every useful. Things like the nice FFT implementation, Bode plots with built-in AWG, resolution enhancement, and low noise front end all have proved very useful. Also the touch screen (especially used with a mouse) and remote access is nice, and I never cared for touch screens.

Lots of choices out there but agree with 2N3055 recommendation above.

Best,

[Fungus]

What time I did get with these digital devices wasn't impressive and liked the old analog display from Tek much better.

I don't think anybody would disagree that the old analog 'scopes look beautiful and feel awesome compared to DSOs.

The DSOs can do sooooo much more though, despite the low res graphics and nasty non-tactile knobs.

* They provide much more information about the signal
* Things like serial decoding
* You can get 4 channel versions and MSOs (are there any 4 channel CROs?)

[Fungus]

Most of my projects are digital based with embeded MCU's and a multitude of inputs from sensors etc, mainly passing through ADC's and DAC's and filters etc with some op-amp stuff for signal conditioning and the like.

I'd say 4 channels is important for that...

Note: I keep forgetting that the 2-channel Keysights are actually 2+1 channel MSOs, ie. 2 Analog channels and 1 digital channel. You can do all the serial decoding, look at Arduino pins, etc., on the digital channel. That really reduces the need for four channels.

The Keysights are also the closest in 'feel' to the old analog scopes. They have very responsive controls, fast screen updates, etc. If that's your thing then don't discount them.

[nctnico]

* You can get 4 channel versions and MSOs (are there any 4 channel CROs?)

Plenty of 4 channel CROs around. I think I've owned 3 different models myself.

[rf-loop]

* You can get 4 channel versions and MSOs (are there any 4 channel CROs?)

I do not know name for this humor category. What it is.

[Jeff C]

>

Its seems that Keysight haven't really had a look in on this discussion and I get the feeling they the are not really thought much of on here for some reason?

Its not because anyone thinks less of Keysight, they make some very solid scopes, but the bang for buck is not nearly as high as the other ones mentioned. The Siglent SDS2000X Plus (as well as some of the other scopes mentioned here) have a lot of the features of a Keysight MSO3000XT for about 1/3rd of the price. Not to mention that after you *Liberate* your scope there is even more of a bang per buck difference.

[tv84]

Its seems that Keysight haven't really had a look in on this discussion and I get the feeling they the are not really thought much of on here for some reason?

Adding to what Jeff said:

For your price target there is nothing from Keysight that beats the Siglent SDS2104X+. If you increase your budget tenfold, I think there won't be any Siglent fanboy here that wouldn't prefer a Keysight. But since we are talking about our own money...

[Fungus]

Its not because anyone thinks less of Keysight, they make some very solid scopes, but the bang for buck is not nearly as high as the other onesNot to mention that after you *Liberate* your scope there is even more of a bang per buck difference.

Bang/buck ratio isn't as high in numerical terms but lots of people seem to prefer the 'analog feel' of the Keysights (including EEVBLOG's Dave). I guess that's hard to judge though.

[hobbyelectronics]

Hello,

OK, after a lot of consideration, I think I have narrowed it down to two models that I might consider.

R&S RTB2000 Series (ETB2002 as the 04 is much more expensive)
R&S RTB2002EDU (EDU Version on offer with lots of extras at 1,190 Euros, see here https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rohde-Schwarz-RTB2002EDU.html)
Siglent SDS2104X PLUS

I now need to find specific reviews or comparisons by normal users to compare the two of them. Spec sheets are all ok, but real reviews are valuable.

I like the large screens on both, not over fussed if its touch screen or not. Also, I like the higher res and the 10 bit ADC on the R&S but it seems the screen is very reflective from what I have read, which would bug me every time I use it if its as bad as what some have said.
Both seem to be very good scopes and with lots of powerful features. Its just a case of deciding which one to purchase. The Siglent is a better deal money wise with more going for it feature wise maybe and the possible option to upgrade!!

So, does anyone on here have experience with both of these or can give any further info either way?
Although its not all about looks and how big the screen, build quality etc but the R&S seems to be drawing me in just a bit more but I don't want to miss out on the extras that may be available on the Siglent.

Thanks to everyone's views and opinions, every little bit of info helps. Maybe R&S or Siglent can send me one to have a play with to compare!, but that's not going to happen.

Regards

John

[nctnico]

Don't worry about the glossy screen. I have an RTM3004 here with the same screen and it is not a problem.

[tautech]

Spec sheets are all ok, but real reviews are valuable.

In the first post here there are links to 3 videos for the SDS2000X Plus:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/

Where are you as in some regions the free options promotion is still running ?

[radiolistener]

Most of my projects are digital based with embeded MCU's and a multitude of inputs from sensors etc, mainly passing through ADC's and DAC's and filters etc with some op-amp stuff for signal conditioning and the like.

In most cases two channels is enough to debug digital stuff like MCU and sensors.
The more important things are memory depth, sample rate and input bandwidth.