new Oscilloscope choice

[hobbyelectronics]

Hello,

I am sure this topic has been covered before but their seems to be so much information and of course with technology moving and prices changing I wanted a fresh look at this.

Basically I need to replace two very old oscilloscopes (Phillips Dual time base scopes, late 80's) with something a bit more up to date and modern.

The model I have been looking is a Keysight DSOX1202G or maybe a Keysight DSOX2002A.
I only want this for general purpose use, and do not really need any protocol analysis as I have other logic tools (Saleae).

Most of my projects are digital based with embeded MCU's and a multitude of inputs from sensors etc, mainly passing through ADC's and DAC's and filters etc with some op-amp stuff for signal conditioning and the like.


So my questions is really, what scope would you recommend? Added maths and other functions would be nice. Two channels is all I need but 4 would be a bonus, maybe 70Mhz would be ok but higher the better for future projects.
I was also looking for something with as big a screen as I can get for that sort of money.

Thanks

John

[Fungus]

Most of my projects are digital based with embeded MCU's and a multitude of inputs from sensors etc, mainly passing through ADC's and DAC's and filters etc with some op-amp stuff for signal conditioning and the like.

I'd say 4 channels is important for that sort of work. In theory you can do anything with just 2 channels but 4 channels really reduces the amount of probe movements.

A DSOX1204G costs less than a DSOX2002A, so... I say go for 4 channels.

[Jeff C]

What's your budget? Since you listed the DSOX2002A I would assume its around $1500 USD.

That being said, for that price you could also look at the Rigol MSO 5000 for around $1000 USD or the Siglent SDS2104x Plus for around $1400 USD. Both scopes are 4 channels, have an MSO option, and there are threads on the form on how to make DIY Logic analyzer probes.

I personally own the SDS2104x Plus. The hack was very simple and it unlocks all the options. I've read that the Rigol can be kind of tricky because you have to edit some configuration file in the linux OS to hack it, but with the siglent there is a simple python script. The siglent also has an auto probe interface, 50 ohm termination, and 200 MPts of storage. There are a lot more specs to both scopes, so do some research on the internet and on the threads I've linked below

Thread for Siglent SDS2000X Plus:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/

Thread for Rigol MSO 5000:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/new-rigol-scope/

Thread comparing Siglent SDS2104x Plus and Rigol MSO 5000
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/best-350mhz-scope-in-a-hackable-world-(siglent-sds2104x-plus-or-rigol-mso5072)/

Siglent Hack:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-hack/

Rigol Hack:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/

DIY Siglent Logic Analyser Probes:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/

DIY Rigol Probes:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ms05000-budget-logic-analyzer-probe-set-design/

edit: added more links

[nctnico]

For your purpose I'd get a 4 channel scope all day long. The screen on the MicSig STO1000 series is pretty big and it has very little noise which is nice for dealing with analog circuits. This model also has signal filtering which is nice to have when dealing with signal processing circuits; you can check on the oscilloscope whether filtering is going to improve a signal or you can filter out unwanted high or low frequency spurs.

And don't underestimate the power of having decoding on an oscilloscope. With a logic analyser you can only see the digital domain while problems are often only visible in the analog domain. Many years ago I was involved in a project in which another engineer spend 2 or 3 weeks trying to fix a communication problem on an RS485 bus. In the end I went over to see what the problem was. He was using the digital channels on his oscilloscope so the first thing I did was using the analog channels and the cause of the problem was right in front of us immediately. It took less than half an hour to fix the problem from there.

[2N3055]

First: don't buy DSOX2002A. That is worst scope for the money in the world. For same money you can get DSOX1204G from Keysight that is better scope, and has Siggen. That is if it has to be Keysight.
There are many other choices, many with interesting advantages to said Keysights.

Take a look at scopes Jeff C and NctNico mentioned. As Nico said, don't dismiss mixed signal scopes, they can be life savers.
Decoding on the scope is not important for long sequences of decoding communication software level. They are useful for correlation of messages with analog world.
For instance correlating I2C frame with wrong message to sag on power line. With logic analyser decoding you only see errored frame not the cause.

Big screen?  Micsig is interesting little thing with screen bigger than Keysights, both Rigol MSO5000 (9") and Siglent SDS2104X+ (10") have bigger screen, touch and are level up in anything Keysight has less than MSOX3000T series.

I would do a bit of research before making decision.

[Fungus]

The Rigol is powerful but a bit noisy so I assume it wouldn't fit the "signal conditioning" requirement.

A Micsig is half the cost of a Keysight and it's what I use. It's got a big screen and the user interface is awesome. There's not many Micsig dealers if you're in the USA though.

[hobbyelectronics]

Hi,

Thank you so much to everyone who has replied. All with valid and interesting comments.
I don't need to stick to Keysight, just thought they were a good brand and one to go for.
Some very interesting comments that made me think. I will  now add 4 channels and also decoding to my list of must have features.

I have never heard of MicSig, I am not sure were they are but I am in the UK and not seen them before now. Will have a look at these and read the reviews.
The filter feature sounds really interesting and would be helpful I think.

Anyway, there I was almost ready to checkout with a Keysight, but now its back to the drawing board and to have a serious think of what I need and how much to spend. In work we have two very high end Yokogawa scopes, I think around 50K in money which are excellent. Don't think they do a low cost or entry level version though for around £1200?

Thanks again, I will post back here if I have any further questions or need any more advice.

John

[nctnico]

The R&S RTB2004 series is also worth considering if you can stretch the budget.

[Fungus]

I have never heard of MicSig, I am not sure were they are but I am in the UK and not seen them before now. Will have a look at these and read the reviews. The filter feature sounds really interesting and would be helpful I think.

I got mine here: https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Micsig-STO1104C.html

[modoran]

Where does the "plus" in name means ?   

Why not buy cheaper from here ?
https://www.banggood.com/Micsig-STO1104C-Digital-Smart-Oscilloscope-100MHz-4CH-Handheld-Oscilloscope-Automotive-Scopemeter-Oscilloscope-p-1618226.html?cur_warehouse=CZ&ID=6285165

[2N3055]

Where does the "plus" in name means ?   

Why not buy cheaper from here ?
https://www.banggood.com/Micsig-STO1104C-Digital-Smart-Oscilloscope-100MHz-4CH-Handheld-Oscilloscope-Automotive-Scopemeter-Oscilloscope-p-1618226.html?cur_warehouse=CZ&ID=6285165

That is a price that is same as Batronix in Germany, and from Germany you don't pay import and dues for that, and you get 3 year warranty... 

[modoran]

Banggood delivers from Czech Republic, also without import taxes and extremely fast delivery time.

[2N3055]

I would never buy anything worth 500 USD without warranty... And new rules of taxing mean even if they are 1 USD only it might be applied.

[Fungus]

Banggood delivers from Czech Republic, also without import taxes and extremely fast delivery time.

We don't actually know where 'hobbyelectronics' lives. 

I mainly posted Batronix as a price reference (ie. it's half the price of the 4-channel Keysight...)

The Micsig is very different to use, the Keysights are probably very similar to the old 'scopes being replaced. It doesn't hurt to learn new things though  and the Micsigs are many times faster to setup things like (eg.) triggering with all parameters on a single touch-sensitive page instead of working your way through half a dozen individual submenus with a twisty knob.

[nctnico]

I would never buy anything worth 500 USD without warranty... And new rules of taxing mean even if they are 1 USD only it might be applied.

It seems Aliexpress is getting round that by shipping from within the EU.

[2N3055]

I would never buy anything worth 500 USD without warranty... And new rules of taxing mean even if they are 1 USD only it might be applied.

It seems Aliexpress is getting round that by shipping from within the EU.

They might cheat tax, but you will still have no warranty... And since you didn't buy from authorized source, you don't know if you even going to get good one. It might be rejects, or with a defect.
If it is who are you going to return to... That is jut too much risk for little price difference compared to authorised distributors...

And tax evasion is suspicious, if it ships from EU, then you must pay entity in EU and pay VAT. If you don't, that is basically smuggled goods...
You pay to someone in China, and that entity smuggles it into EU without importing it legally and ships it to you by post..

Or someone did import it in EU and paid all duties, and than absorbed all cost. In which case you need to get a invoice that clearly shows VAT...

I'm not saying it is 100% bad option, but is just too shady for my taste on many level and benefit is minimal. I, personally, would gladly pay few € more not to have to deal with it.

[james_s]

I've bought lots of things for more than $500 that had no warranty, but they were used items and a new one with a warranty would have cost many times more.

[Fungus]

Or someone did import it in EU and paid all duties, and than absorbed all cost. In which case you need to get a invoice that clearly shows VAT...

If you're VAT registered in the EU* then Batronix will ship it to you without TAX applied and you declare it in your own country.

(*) Or know somebody who is.


https://www.batronix.com/shop/shopping/vat-information.html

[nctnico]

And tax evasion is suspicious, if it ships from EU, then you must pay entity in EU and pay VAT. If you don't, that is basically smuggled goods...
You pay to someone in China, and that entity smuggles it into EU without importing it legally and ships it to you by post..

That is just pure speculation. Aliexpress will take the cheapest route for sure but given the huge volume of packets you can rest assured that every customs department in the EU is on top of them.

[hobbyelectronics]

Hi,

As I already mentioned above, I am in the UK. I would prefer to buy from a UK authorised dealer if possible and also avoid import duty and high postage costs if I can.
I don't mind buying from the EU or anywhere else but only if I know that the benefits out way the added costs and potential warranty issues.

Also, this would be a business purchase so I would need to ensure I have an official VAT receipt and some sort of proper warranty.
For this purchase I would not consider BangGood or AliExpress, if I have to pay extra for UK or a EU / USA distributor then so be it.
I would also consider second hand maybe if it means I get a better scope for the same money, as long as I get proof of purchase.

My main questions are really about the spec / quality of a scope rather the where to buy and who from.
Picking a brand and model is my dilemma.

Thanks for all your replies, of which all are interesting and useful in making a final choice.

John

[2N3055]

And tax evasion is suspicious, if it ships from EU, then you must pay entity in EU and pay VAT. If you don't, that is basically smuggled goods...
You pay to someone in China, and that entity smuggles it into EU without importing it legally and ships it to you by post..

That is just pure speculation. Aliexpress will take the cheapest route for sure but given the huge volume of packets you can rest assured that every customs department in the EU is on top of them.

It is not a speculation, it is explanation that someone must pay tax and import duties, importer or final customer. If nobody did, it is not really legally imported in EU.  Period.

[2N3055]

Hi,

As I already mentioned above, I am in the UK. I would prefer to buy from a UK authorised dealer if possible and also avoid import duty and high postage costs if I can.
I don't mind buying from the EU or anywhere else but only if I know that the benefits out way the added costs and potential warranty issues.

Also, this would be a business purchase so I would need to ensure I have an official VAT receipt and some sort of proper warranty.
For this purchase I would not consider BangGood or AliExpress, if I have to pay extra for UK or a EU / USA distributor then so be it.
I would also consider second hand maybe if it means I get a better scope for the same money, as long as I get proof of purchase.

My main questions are really about the spec / quality of a scope rather the where to buy and who from.
Picking a brand and model is my dilemma.

Thanks for all your replies, of which all are interesting and useful in making a final choice.

John

John,

I don't know how complicated is to import things from EU after Brexit, but Batronix and Baterfly are good source in EU. Also I know that in UK Telonic sells Micsig.

Micsig scopes are cute little buggers, there is a version that is touch screen only, and one with buttons and touch screen.
They are good quality, work well, very little bugs, not very sophisticated devices (no advanced analysis options and such), but what is there works well..
Also they are very compact, battery powered, and portable. They work well on desk and out in the field.
There are some demonstrations and reviews out there. If you have specific question, there are many users here so maybe we can answer. Also, if you looking to buy, asking questions to a distributor is a good way to test how responsive they are to your requests.


Good luck!

[goaty]

I can recommend a Mixed-Signal approach.
One hardly needs 4 channels, if either a Mixed-Signal Scope with one or more 8-bit PODs is presend or a separate cheap logicanalyzer like Dreamsource.
I can watch signal fidelity with a single probe and decode the bus with the LA either builtin or separate.
I love the external LA, as the sigrok/pulseview has so powerful decoders.
Also the builtin LA in scope is useful, but has not so many decoders and is harder to set up with knobs of scope.

[hobbyelectronics]

Ah, yes, that's very true. I have a Saleae LA which I think is fantastic and as helped solve many complex problems.
As also pointed out have a scope decode the signals in a analogue way can also find signal problems that a pure LA would not always be able to see.

All though 4 channels would be nice, I have always had 2 channels scopes and never (So far) needed 4 channels at the same time. But I can of course see that their could be times when that may be needed.
I don't need the scope to be portable and prefer a 'proper' bench unit.

Math functions and the like would also be really good, but I don't need a function generator or DCM built in so just a really good 2 (or 4) channel MSO would be what I am looking for I think?? with a big clear screen (Phosphor maybe?).
My budget is really not much more than around £1200 + VAT .

The R&S scopes also look really good with software upgrades available for the future maybe.

Would be great to loan one and play with it for a few weeks but I think those days are gone unless you are spending massive amounts of cash on one.

Thanks

John

[goaty]

I got the 1054Z since I started again hobby electronics and repair and it´s been a good friend, but the FFT and decode ist not optimal.
The FFT is slow and the decode does not work if segmented memory which is a shame.

Now I got opportunity to try RTC1002 and RTB2004.
Love the extremely small form of the RTC but the operation without touch is slow (text entry, bus setup). It´s probably one of the best scopes
with 2ch if you get the COM2 package. 300MHz and all options.

But the bigger screen and touch is a huge timesaver on the RTB. If you have twice the money for the RTC and the space on the bench.
Also Bode-Plot and 16bits LA is nice. Great also is the ARB Gen when you can copy a signal from probe directly into arb and replay the signal.

Don´t get me wrong, I´d look at the Siglent, Rigol etc at any time, they are great scopes.