new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004

[JPortici]

Yes, mine too (with the limitations on wfm/s and samplerate given by its older architecture and mainly lower memory). but it can't trigger on protocols of any kind or on slew rate over/under threshold, or on measurement over/under x and all the other nice things wavescan is supposed to have

[Hydron]

I also find a PC connected scope is a useful addition to a bench scope for analysis type tasks. PC based stuff sometimes gets a bad rep for lack of buttons&knobs but I think it's more about having the right tool for the job, which is sometimes a bench unit and sometimes a PC one.

The RTB2000 can actually do a respectably fast burst capture with "fast segmentation" mode on (I think this is part of the history function, which is stupidly an optional extra) - from memory I got a few hundred thousand waveforms per second in my testing. This mode skips waveform display, dumping everything straight into the history buffer (which is generous at 160 megasamples per channel). What I haven't done yet is to play with any event/serial searches in this history buffer.

[2N3055]

I also find a PC connected scope is a useful addition to a bench scope for analysis type tasks. PC based stuff sometimes gets a bad rep for lack of buttons&knobs but I think it's more about having the right tool for the job, which is sometimes a bench unit and sometimes a PC one.

Exactly what I think!! Well said!

[Hydron]

It's also a lot easier to drag around a PC scope in a laptop bag - by the end of April mine will have clocked up over 100,000km in the air! My RTB2004 has only done NYC->London, about 5% of that.

That said, one of my favorite stories is about the Tek 453 "portable": http://readingjimwilliams.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/scope-sunday-3.html

[porker1972]

I wonder if someone did an unbiased comparison of the RTB2K vs. the Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 as they should be roughly in the same price range, both have a touch screen and comparable features and memory sizes.
The main technical difference seems 10bit (R&S) vs. 8bit (Lecroy) and 2.5 GSa/s (R&S) vs. 4 GSa/s (Lecroy) sampling rate - where I would honestly value the sampling rate higher.
E.g. from browsing the manual, the R&S seems to miss a complex trigger feature while the Lecroy has a "Smart Trigger" which allows at least a bit of complexity. But maybe I'm mistaken regarding the R&S.
I'm also not sure if the search functions of the R&S come close to the "WaveScan" feature of the Lecroys.
Then again, I used a Wavesurfer 3000 at work and found it to be quite a bit sluggish (compared to a bigger Lecroy) and some things to be annoying like it entering the roll mode early on higher time bases.
At least from the videos I saw, the GUI of the R&S seems to be a bit sleeker.

There's absolutely no point in a digital scope having a real-time sample rate more than 5x the bandwidth. The analogue filter does not pass through any signal content that the higher digitising speed will capture, so effectively the higher sample rate just uses more memory with no advantage. (The theoretical optimal sample rate is 3.8x bandwidth).

Equally, the extra bits of dynamic range are useless unless the rest of the signal path is improved - I remember the first LeCroy 12-bit scopes were still only effectively 7 bits, and there were interleaving/jitter problems as the higher dynamic range reduces sample speed, so two channels were interleaved, causing timing mis-match so bad that even sinewaves at fmax were terrible.

There's a type of WaveScan in most scopes, e.g. Tek's WaveInspector and the Keysight version, whatever it's called. They are nice tools but if you don't know what you are looking for, the fast update rate is what saves you. LeCroy is pig slow in that respect, and Keysight is still the winner.

[0xdeadbeef]

About the sample rate you need to keep in mind that the WS3K has up to 750MHz and my understanding is that at least for the models below 500MHz, the frontend is identical.
Besides all of these 4ch scopes usually half the sampling rate if you use both channels on the same ADC. I.e. 4GSa/s become 2GSa/s and 2.5GSa/s become 1.25GSa/s.
Last but not least, with segmented memory, you could capture multiple short events with high sampling rate and still not use excessive amounts of memory (btw. it's a let-down that segmented memory is an option on the RTB2K and an excessively expensive one on top of that).
Anyway, the Keysight 3000T X series has 5GSa/s and only 4Mpts, so compared to that, even the WS3K has a more sensible ratio between sample rate and memory.

Regarding Wavescan vs. Tek/Keysight data analysis, members like "sausage dog" would argue that WaveScan is superior. Actually what I have used it for so far is something I could also achieve with a proper history function.
And yes, all the Lecroys are somewhat slowish since they're doing every analysis from the sample memory on the main CPU and the WS3K is specifically slow with statistic or decoding activated. Then again, IMHO doing the analysis over the whole consistent sample buffer is much better than doing it from the screen buffer like other (especially Keysight) scopes.
Anyway, I hate to admit that the slow serial decoding of a WS3K looks totally unsexy compared to the very fast decoding on a RTB2K. I'm unsure if the RTB2K always decodes the whole sample buffer or tricks by only decoding the screen buffer, but the slow update rate of the WS3K in decode mode sure is something that would annoy me.

I still tend to think that the WS3K has better trigger options (Smart Trigger), but generally it's frustrating to see that only the absolute high end (Lecroy) scopes seem to have somewhat appropriate multi stage triggering or statistics that allow to define gating, set thresholds or at least configure the active edge.

[Nouser2018]

Just got my RTB2004.  Has anyone else noticed a high pitch whine when the scope is in standby mode (mains plugged in, but scope off)?  It is rather loud compared to my working environment.

Got mine two weeks ago. Silent when in standby (yellow indicator light). By contrast, my desktop HMC-8012 has a 50Hz hum when switch on, regardless of being in standby or turn on fully. That's quite annoying but R&S didn't want to replace the PSU, they said it was normal. The RTB2004 is very noisy when turned on though; it's the fan.

I like it very much so far, UI sluggishness is ok, but one thing bothers the h3ck out of me, and that's the 3MBit UART decoder. The HMO could do 31MBit, and in version 400 of the datasheet from last year the RTB2000 series could do 32MBit as well. But, already in datasheet version 402 they degraded it to 3MBit.

Could someone from R&S elaborate on that? Apparently, the hardware is capable, but was limited afterwards for some reason.

I work with PICs on internal RC @32MHz a lot and use their UARTs at 4MBit; and that the scope cannot decode the messages annoys the cr4p out of me. Yes, I should have read the datasheet carefully, but who would think that this unit is one whole order of magnitude worse than its predecessor(s)? Even the Keysight can do 8MBit / s.

And, fun fact:

• CAN is specified @5Mbit, but you can only select 2 Mbit in the firmware 2.00
• LIN is specified @5MBit, but you can only select 2.52MBit in the firmware 2.00

not that you'd need those bit rates in those bus systems, but still. The limited UART decoder is an impediment though.

I'm hoping that they change that back to the 32MBit, or at least increase it to the value the competition can do (8MBit). Otherwise great device.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I like it very much so far, UI sluggishness is ok, but one thing bothers the h3ck out of me, and that's the 3MBit UART decoder. The HMO could do 31MBit, and in version 400 of the datasheet from last year the RTB2000 series could do 32MBit as well. But, already in datasheet version 402 they degraded it to 3MBit.

The fact that the RTM3004 can do 6M suggest the hardware should be at least capable of that

Even the Keysight can do 8MBit / s.

Even the Keysight 1000 can  do UART to 10M ( user settable up to 8, then fixed 10), and the MSOX3000 can also do 12M

And, fun fact:

• CAN is specified @5Mbit, but you can only select 2 Mbit in the firmware 2.00
• LIN is specified @5MBit, but you can only select 2.52MBit in the firmware 2.00

On the RTM3004, CAN is still only up to 2M, but LIN is up to 5M

I can see that timing granularity may mean that they can't do arbitary higher rates, but fixed rates of at least 4 and 6 would be a very welcome addition

[Nouser2018]

out of curiosity, why would you need a LIN framing @5Mbit? Or, CAN framing @5Mbit? Were those not specified to 20kbit and 1Mbit max data rates respectively? Have never worked with both, though...

[genghisnico13]

Since we are complaining....
Is there any reason why the horizontal positioning does not have acceleration? Having a touch screen and being able to select and write the position is a good workaround but I think it would be better to also have acceleration.

On the bright side, I want to tell you that you choose a good power supply for the scope. A week ago my power company decided to send a phase trough the neutral and I had a peak of 360v(at least that was what I saw on the panel meter when I cut the power to my house) and the scope survived with no problems. Unfortunately my Keithley 2015,  which was also on,  blew a fuse and now readings are a little bit off.

[hwj-d]

Some really nice vids about the RTB2K, decoding, debugging, history mode, etc.
They are now 3 month there, but only about 50 views and one thumbsup, they deserve more!

Here is one. But look at the chanel, there are more.

[sixtimesseven]

Has anyone bought a case / bag for his rtb2004?
I mean a non rohde schwarz one (https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTB-Z3/Cases/)?
Because honestly 200$+ is a bit ridicolus for a flimsy cloth bag (I had it in my hands). I searched this thread for "bag" / "case" but so far nothing usefull.

If somebody already found a fitting solution, please let me know. Thank you

[korlatos]

This is the one I got - it's a very solid case, and Tequipment is a great vendor to do business with.

https://www.tequipment.net/IWH/DSO-Case-Deluxe/Cases/

[Ghislain]

When I need a rugged protective case I usually look at the cases from B&W. They are not cheap either but at least they are high quality and offer a large degree of overall protection.
The 6000 model may fit the bill for carrying your scope (I use it for my SA).
It is worthwhile shopping around, I often find better prices elsewhere than the one on Amazon: https://www.amazon.de/outdoor-cases-Typ-6000-W%C3%BCrfelschaum-SI/dp/B00H3R77DQ/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1521731234&sr=8-4&keywords=b%26w+6000&dpID=41x8F%252BkRooL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch   

PS. The case from R&S is certainly far from bad (and definitely looks nicer) but it does not provide the same level of protection (padded nylon) as the B&W one does 

[casinada]

Too much money 
This is more reasonable:
http://www.planomolding.com/hunting/handgun/all-weather-pistol-case-large
https://www.amazon.com/Plano-108021-Pistol-Accessories-Latches/dp/B0029KKWVQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1521750381&sr=8-2&keywords=plano+108021&dpID=516uKEbT7YL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch
I'm sure there are other options. I haven't looked for soft cases yet. 

[Ghislain]

Too much money 
This is more reasonable:
http://www.planomolding.com/hunting/handgun/all-weather-pistol-case-large
https://www.amazon.com/Plano-108021-Pistol-Accessories-Latches/dp/B0029KKWVQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1521750381&sr=8-2&keywords=plano+108021&dpID=516uKEbT7YL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch
I'm sure there are other options. I haven't looked for soft cases yet. 

These could indeed do too although at first glance it looks like they may be too small (height), the according to the spec sheet the dimensions of the scope (W x H x D) are:
15.4 x 8.66 x 5.98 inches
390 x 220 x 152 mm
Also make sure you have some space left to accomodate for the accessories.
In the end, the selection of an appropriate solution (hard shell, soft shell, size) exclusively depends upon your particular use case and budget 

[casinada]

Scope            L=15.40in. x W=8.66in.   x H=5.98in.
Case 108021  L=18.38in. x W=14.25in. x H=8in   $60.50
Case  108031 L=20.75in. x W=16.5in. x H=9.25in. $68.94
 

[hwj-d]

Hopefully, R&S will still remember things like promised functionalities, such as the necessary advanced math. trigger possibilities, and already mentioned things like drag'n drop quick access, etc.

It's getting a bit too quiet around the RTB2K.

Hello Rich, what's new out there in the moment?   

[maginnovision]

Hopefully, R&S will still remember things like promised functionalities, such as the necessary advanced math. trigger possibilities, and already mentioned things like drag'n drop quick access, etc.

It's getting a bit too quiet around the RTB2K.

Hello Rich, what's new out there in the moment?   

In the QA thread he mentioned april/may as probable next release.

[Joel_l]

I don't think R&S promised anything and I would personally not have any such expectations. Just be pleasantly surprised if they do add some what has been common and basic functions present in low end scopes that are missing.

Hopefully, R&S will still remember things like promised functionalities, such as the necessary advanced math. trigger possibilities, and already mentioned things like drag'n drop quick access, etc.

It's getting a bit too quiet around the RTB2K.

Hello Rich, what's new out there in the moment?   

[Robaroni]

I don't think R&S promised anything and I would personally not have any such expectations. Just be pleasantly surprised if they do add some what has been common and basic functions present in low end scopes that are missing.

It always cracks me when people say things like this. This scope can do more than most people are capable of or need. Low end scopes cost $249, have 50M bandwidth and cases with holes that don't fit just right.

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Hopefully, R&S will still remember things like promised functionalities, such as the necessary advanced math. trigger possibilities, and already mentioned things like drag'n drop quick access, etc.

It's getting a bit too quiet around the RTB2K.

Hello Rich, what's new out there in the moment?   

Haven't forgotten, and as far as I know they are still planned, but as mentioned before, the advanced math will likely be in the summer timeframe.  Not sure on the quick access (could be the next release or perhaps the summer).

In general, I expect new FW updates about every 3-4 months for the 2000/3000/4000.  We just introduced the 3000/4000 in January.  3-4 months will put us in April/May which aligns with the R&D team's expectations as well.  Of course that could change (faster/slower), but on average that is what I expect we'll see.   

-Rich

[Joel_l]

Glad I can make you laugh. I have a full option RTB2004 and do like it, but the fact is, some lower end scopes have some features the RTB does not.

I don't think R&S promised anything and I would personally not have any such expectations. Just be pleasantly surprised if they do add some what has been common and basic functions present in low end scopes that are missing.

It always cracks me when people say things like this. This scope can do more than most people are capable of or need. Low end scopes cost $249, have 50M bandwidth and cases with holes that don't fit just right.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Glad I can make you laugh. I have a full option RTB2004 and do like it, but the fact is, some lower end scopes have some features the RTB does not.

For example ?

[nctnico]

I don't think R&S promised anything and I would personally not have any such expectations. Just be pleasantly surprised if they do add some what has been common and basic functions present in low end scopes that are missing.

It always cracks me when people say things like this. This scope can do more than most people are capable of or need. Low end scopes cost $249, have 50M bandwidth and cases with holes that don't fit just right.

Perhaps low-end is the wrong term but 1Mpts FFT and free-form math (for example) can be found on good oscilloscopes which are much cheaper (while having the same bandwidth) compared to the regular price of the RTB2004. As I wrote before: the RTB2004 really needs to offer more bang-for-the-buck to be competitive. A bigger screen and 10 bit ADCs aren't going to do it.