NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017

[mikeselectricstuff]

I think the MZ4 is now about 6 years old?
I think I did some math in another thread and found they released a new Megazoom every 7 years on average?

I'm not sure why anyone would need the new megazoom ASIC for Infiniivision-class devices with today's reasonably priced SoC + FPGA chips like Zync. Maybe if you're going to use 20GSa ADC in 3000X replacement...

FPGAs get very expensive pretty quickly. They generally do not use silicon area very efficiently - their main selling point is flexibility and low tooling cost. For a product that's going to be built in sufficient volumes with a well-defined functionality that's unlikely to need changing, an ASIC is going to be more silicon- and power- effificient.

[ebastler]

Well, I just got the final datasheet with US pricing and I must say 
When I originally heard about this (and they asked for feedback on it) the base level price they were targeting was very competitive in the low end scope world.
And it still is, a bit more than I originally heard, but still a good base price. The problem is the feature set for the price.

This is clearly targeted at the educational market, more so than I thought, [...]

So, are we back to the original assumption of $650 for the EDUX model with signal generator (and its 50 MHz bandwidth, 100 kSample memory limitation)?

Which would probably translate to $450 or so for the bare-bones EDUX model, and approaching $1000 for the DSOX (70 MHz incl. signal generator) for the general market?

[Fungus]

Unless of course someone hacks the base model, then it will likely sell like wild fire if you want a 2CH budget scope.

If they make it $650 and hackable for everything except CAN/LIN* decoders then they might have something.

(I really don't expect them to let people hack those two buses for free...)

[EEVblog]

I think the MZ4 is now about 6 years old?
I think I did some math in another thread and found they released a new Megazoom every 7 years on average?

I'm not sure why anyone would need the new megazoom ASIC for Infiniivision-class devices with today's reasonably priced SoC + FPGA chips like Zync. Maybe if you're going to use 20GSa ADC in 3000X replacement...

A decent Zynq is like $50 in qty.
An amortised ASIC will be much cheaper.

[EEVblog]

Unless of course someone hacks the base model, then it will likely sell like wild fire if you want a 2CH budget scope.

If they make it $650 and hackable for everything except CAN/LIN* decoders then they might have something.
(I really don't expect them to let people hack those two buses for free...)

What would be special about those?
If you hack the scope license system then you'll almost certainly get everything.

[Fungus]

If they make it $650 and hackable for everything except CAN/LIN* decoders then they might have something.
(I really don't expect them to let people hack those two buses for free...)

What would be special about those?

Beats me...   ...but every 'scope manufacturer seems to charge a fortune for them. 

[ebastler]

If they make it $650 and hackable for everything except CAN/LIN* decoders then they might have something.
(I really don't expect them to let people hack those two buses for free...)

What would be special about those?
If you hack the scope license system then you'll almost certainly get everything.

Nothing special from a technical perspective, of course. But scope manufacturers seem to position these as firmly "professional" protocols -- offering decoders as a separate upgrade package (like Keysight for the DSOX), or not offering them at all for the entry-level models (Rigol for the DS1000Z series, and again Keysight for the EDUX).

There might also be a license fee for using the CAN protocol? That would explain why scope manufacturers don't include it in the basic package, to avoid burdening it with that extra cost.

[Boson]

But scope manufacturers seem to position these as firmly "professional" protocols

You offend my little puppy Is it not a scope or not from manufacturer? Analog Discovery 2 has CAN protocol out of the box. Looking bying Pico and it has CAN, LIN out of the box. Maybe these only for professional then and other scope for entertainment unless pay extra? 

+find 1 more - CAN, LIN: GDS-2000E 

[JPortici]

If they make it $650 and hackable for everything except CAN/LIN* decoders then they might have something.
(I really don't expect them to let people hack those two buses for free...)

What would be special about those?
If you hack the scope license system then you'll almost certainly get everything.

Nothing special from a technical perspective, of course. But scope manufacturers seem to position these as firmly "professional" protocols -- offering decoders as a separate upgrade package (like Keysight for the DSOX), or not offering them at all for the entry-level models (Rigol for the DS1000Z series, and again Keysight for the EDUX).

There might also be a license fee for using the CAN protocol? That would explain why scope manufacturers don't include it in the basic package, to avoid burdening it with that extra cost.

fee for using can? not that i know of. decoding raw can data (even by hand) is rather trivial once you have read the specification, which will always be available for free from the bosch website. Sure, more difficult than the more common spi/i2c, but the real problem with CAN is decoding what's happening at the higher levels and that's why you pay some money for a canbus analyzer (not talking about the elm327 and the like) and, if necesary, for the very expensive software.

i'm sure that the lack of entry level scopes with CAN is because it's targeted for different customer bases, the average hobbyist still won't care about setting up a canbus interface in a project and a business will have deeper pockets

(though siglent is actually offering can decoding with the sds1000x, and that's the price range i would expect the new keysight to fall into)

[ebastler]

fee for using can? not that i know of.

http://www.bosch-semiconductors.de/media/automotive_electronics/pdf_2/ipmodules_3/can_protocol_license_1/Bosch_CAN_Protocol_License_Conditions.pdf

No idea whether this (or similar license terms) applies to protocol analyzers, scopes etc.

[tautech]

If they make it $650 and hackable for everything except CAN/LIN* decoders then they might have something.
(I really don't expect them to let people hack those two buses for free...)

What would be special about those?
If you hack the scope license system then you'll almost certainly get everything.

Nothing special from a technical perspective, of course. But scope manufacturers seem to position these as firmly "professional" protocols -- offering decoders as a separate upgrade package (like Keysight for the DSOX), or not offering them at all for the entry-level models (Rigol for the DS1000Z series, and again Keysight for the EDUX).

There might also be a license fee for using the CAN protocol? That would explain why scope manufacturers don't include it in the basic package, to avoid burdening it with that extra cost.

fee for using can? not that i know of. decoding raw can data (even by hand) is rather trivial once you have read the specification, which will always be available for free from the bosch website. Sure, more difficult than the more common spi/i2c, but the real problem with CAN is decoding what's happening at the higher levels and that's why you pay some money for a canbus analyzer (not talking about the elm327 and the like) and, if necesary, for the very expensive software.

i'm sure that the lack of entry level scopes with CAN is because it's targeted for different customer bases, the average hobbyist still won't care about setting up a canbus interface in a project and a business will have deeper pockets

(though siglent is actually offering can decoding with the sds1000x, and that's the price range i would expect the new keysight to fall into)

In fact the whole Decoding suite of I2C,SPI,UART/RS232,CAN and LIN all come free ATM and have been for months.

[JPortici]

fee for using can? not that i know of.

http://www.bosch-semiconductors.de/media/automotive_electronics/pdf_2/ipmodules_3/can_protocol_license_1/Bosch_CAN_Protocol_License_Conditions.pdf

No idea whether this (or similar license terms) applies to protocol analyzers, scopes etc.

i thought that it applied to silicon?

[ebastler]

http://www.bosch-semiconductors.de/media/automotive_electronics/pdf_2/ipmodules_3/can_protocol_license_1/Bosch_CAN_Protocol_License_Conditions.pdf

No idea whether this (or similar license terms) applies to protocol analyzers, scopes etc.

i thought that it applied to silicon?

You may very well be right; as mentioned, I don't claim to know the field. But Bosch does hold patents on the protocol itself, in addition to specific VHDL modules which they offer for license. The wording does not seem to exclude software-only implementations:

The CAN Protocol and CAN FD Protocol License is required for any implementation of the CAN Protocol and CAN FD Protocol, i.e. self-developed CAN IP modules, CAN IP modules purchased from Bosch or another vendor.

But CAN in software may well be license-free, which would make the separate offering of CAN decoders purely an attempt to retain some market segmentation. Given enough competitive pressure, that segmentation should go away eventually, and CAN will be included as a standard. As others have mentioned here, some manufacturers have already taken that step, so the others will have to follow eventually.

[nfmax]

fee for using can? not that i know of.

http://www.bosch-semiconductors.de/media/automotive_electronics/pdf_2/ipmodules_3/can_protocol_license_1/Bosch_CAN_Protocol_License_Conditions.pdf

No idea whether this (or similar license terms) applies to protocol analyzers, scopes etc.

i thought that it applied to silicon?

The Agilent/Keysight decoders are in silicon, imlemented in the MZ4 ASIC

[nctnico]

I think the MZ4 is now about 6 years old?
I think I did some math in another thread and found they released a new Megazoom every 7 years on average?

I'm not sure why anyone would need the new megazoom ASIC for Infiniivision-class devices with today's reasonably priced SoC + FPGA chips like Zync. Maybe if you're going to use 20GSa ADC in 3000X replacement...

A decent Zynq is like $50 in qty.
An amortised ASIC will be much cheaper.

That comparison is only fair if the ASIC offers the same performance (*) and functions as the Zynq (you have add the price of an external processor to the cost of the ASIC). ASICs may be cheap in large quantities but the lifecycle of test equipment is extremely short due to technology advancing so fast. So for a test equipment specific ASIC to pay for itself you really need to sell a lot of equipment or otherwise you'd have to milk it.

(*) I just looked at your FFT comparison video again and the 64kpts FFT on the MSO X3045T you show in there is painfully slow compared to what the Zynq can do.

[mikeselectricstuff]

but the lifecycle of test equipment is extremely short due to technology advancing so fast.

Seriously ? 
Compared to most other fields in electronics, testgear has an extermely long lifetime. When did Agilent last release a low- end scope ? well over 5 years.

[JPortici]

fee for using can? not that i know of.

http://www.bosch-semiconductors.de/media/automotive_electronics/pdf_2/ipmodules_3/can_protocol_license_1/Bosch_CAN_Protocol_License_Conditions.pdf

No idea whether this (or similar license terms) applies to protocol analyzers, scopes etc.

i thought that it applied to silicon?

The Agilent/Keysight decoders are in silicon, imlemented in the MZ4 ASIC

yes but we were arguing wether the licensce applied to software and hardware too, besides silicon

[EEVblog]

but the lifecycle of test equipment is extremely short due to technology advancing so fast.

Seriously ? 
Compared to most other fields in electronics, testgear has an extermely long lifetime. When did Agilent last release a low- end scope ? well over 5 years.

It'll be pretty close to 6 years to the day between the original X-series and MZ4 announcement and the release of the 1000 X-series.
The 1000X series will have a pretty long life span that will likely push that platform to 10 years.

[EEVblog]

A decent Zynq is like $50 in qty.
An amortised ASIC will be much cheaper.

That comparison is only fair if the ASIC offers the same performance (*) and functions as the Zynq (you have add the price of an external processor to the cost of the ASIC).

The Spear 600-2 in the Keysight is $10 or less in volume.

(*) I just looked at your FFT comparison video again and the 64kpts FFT on the MSO X3045T you show in there is painfully slow compared to what the Zynq can do.

Sure, but that's the only thing it's good at. The Keysight platform is vastly superior in everything else, the general scope responsiveness stuff that you use every day, and it's a 6+ year old design.

[nctnico]

I beg to differ. My Agilent DSO7104A spends most of the time on the shelve because the Zync based one is easier to use and has several handy features the DSO7104A doesn't have. Lack of responsiveness is unknown to me.

[EEVblog]

I beg to differ. My Agilent DSO7104A spends most of the time on the shelve because the Zync based one is easier to use and has several handy features the DSO7104A doesn't have. Lack of responsiveness is unknown to me.

A) The DSO7104A is not an X-series platform
B) The DSO7104A uses the Megazoom III that is 10+ years old, not the Megazoom IV
C) I'm not talking about ease of use or features, I'm talking about scope responsiveness. You can turn on everything on the X-Series at once (serial decode, FFT, masking etc) and it doesn't slow down.

[nctnico]

I beg to differ. My Agilent DSO7104A spends most of the time on the shelve because the Zync based one is easier to use and has several handy features the DSO7104A doesn't have. Lack of responsiveness is unknown to me.

A) The DSO7104A is not an X-series platform
B) The DSO7104A uses the Megazoom III that is 10+ years old, not the Megazoom IV
C) I'm not talking about ease of use or features, I'm talking about scope responsiveness. You can turn on everything on the X-Series at once (serial decode, FFT, masking etc) and it doesn't slow down.

I rather have a feature which is slow than a missing feature. If you need to move a lot of stuff then a Ferrari is the wrong vehicle to use. Then again the Zync ain't no slouch.

[nfmax]

The 1000X series seems to be a case of moving relatively mature technology down toward the lower end of the market, now the ASIC development costs have been recovered, where it can be used to up the ante significantly. Presumably, any new Megazoom 5 chip would initially enter at a higher price point. Any competitor coming in against KS entry-level instruments must realise that there is a whole bunch of extra functionality in the MZ4 chip that could, in principle, be turned on at the flip of a firmware upgrade. For example, full ARB generation, extra protocol decodes, extra memory segments, and maybe even extra memory (though it's not clear if the 2nd MZ4 in the 3000+ series is required to enable the full 4Msamples).

There's clearly been some value engineering going on as well. The limited voltage range of the inputs may have allowed a relatively expensive relay to be omitted; the analogue bandwidth may genuinely not go above 100MHz; the expansion connector has been omitted; and a consumer-grade display seems to be used. The two channels only case design also probably helps reduce costs (even if only shipping costs).

Finally, by far the biggest development cost is in the software, and they appear to be re-using software from the 2000X and 3000X family, on an ARM processor (rather than the SHARC devices of the old Rigol-built 1000A/B series). To me it is very interesting that a couple of the higher end features of this software, like the bode plot and FFT phase, have been leapfrogged down to the 1000X. There is clearly more ammunition in the locker that could be brought out if necessary, to meet the competition. Just not huge amounts of acquisition memory.

It will be interesting to see what the educational resource package is like.

[ebastler]

To me it is very interesting that a couple of the higher end features of this software, like the bode plot and FFT phase, have been leapfrogged down to the 1000X. There is clearly more ammunition in the locker that could be brought out if necessary, to meet the competition. Just not huge amounts of acquisition memory.

It will be interesting to see what the educational resource package is like.

It's probably not a co-incidence that they selected FFT and Bode plots. Both modes are not used that often in professional use. (Although they do have significant value in those situations where they are needed; no need to convince me!) But Fourier transforms and Bode plots are staples of the signal processing curriculum in education, so having them in the scope enables practical exploration of the concepts taught in theory. So this confirms the assumed strong focus on the educational segment.

The feature selection also helps Keysight to keep the high-end scopes differentiated. While from a technical perspective they could certainly enable more features (which already exist in the software) to put pressure on the competition, they would create problems for themselves if the scope becomes too useful compared to the high-end models...

[nfmax]

The feature selection also helps Keysight to keep the high-end scopes differentiated. While from a technical perspective they could certainly enable more features (which already exist in the software) to put pressure on the competition, they would create problems for themselves if the scope becomes too useful compared to the high-end models...

too useful compared to the current high-end models...