NEW Keysight HD3

[ArdWar]

Ah yes, the "high impedance" *10 1GHz passive probes.

Their tagline for their "new" probe is HiZ+ Hi Voltage. So I guess they want to keep R at 10M for that 300V rating, which compromise the tip capacitance.

[EEVblog]

Ah yes, the "high impedance" *10 1GHz passive probes.

Their impedance at 1GHz is actually j40 // 10M . Note the irrelevance of the 10M and the lack of zeros in 40 , due to the 4pF tip capacitance

For comparison my 1.5GHz *10 HP10020A passive probes (introduced in 1978!) are >j230 // 500 Note the significantly reduced loading due to the <0.7pF tip capacitance

And still 500R at DC instead of 10M 

My probe that cost a couple of bucks is probably just as good, 13:50

[maxwell3e10]

The update rate that does not change is all great, but it's clear that measurements are done on only a small fraction of waveforms. For FFT I think it is even worse. One could test with a short occasional sine wave burst and see how long it will take to show up in FFT.

[EEVblog]

The update rate that does not change is all great, but it's clear that measurements are done on only a small fraction of waveforms.

All that matters is the final measurement update rate, 7 times faster is still 7 times faster, AND you still keep the high update rate for capture as well.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Why do they have the illuminated buttons and also the LEDs next to them? Do they do different things?

[tggzzz]

Ah yes, the "high impedance" *10 1GHz passive probes.

Their tagline for their "new" probe is HiZ+ Hi Voltage. So I guess they want to keep R at 10M for that 300V rating, which compromise the tip capacitance.

HiR would be accurate.
HiZ is inaccurate. There are HPWay anecdotes about Paul Ely being the recipient of Packard's response to inaccurate advertising claims - and Ely's commendable response.

[tggzzz]

Ah yes, the "high impedance" *10 1GHz passive probes.

Their impedance at 1GHz is actually j40 // 10M . Note the irrelevance of the 10M and the lack of zeros in 40 , due to the 4pF tip capacitance

For comparison my 1.5GHz *10 HP10020A passive probes (introduced in 1978!) are >j230 // 500 Note the significantly reduced loading due to the <0.7pF tip capacitance

And still 500R at DC instead of 10M 

My probe that cost a couple of bucks is probably just as good, 13:50

It is claimed to be a 1GHz probe, so the 40 tip impedance is extremely relevant.

Two buck probe being "just as good" for what, exactly? A £20 100MHz scope yes, but not a £20000 1GHz scope - certainly not.

[hpw]

All that matters is the final measurement update rate, 7 times faster is still 7 times faster, AND you still keep the high update rate for capture as well.

What I am missing:

- As locking for the maximal FFT size (somewhere mentioned HD3 as 32M FFT) as may licensed memory dependent.
  This would anyway lower the update rate. While did not find any specifications.

- How the ENOB on 100uV as may 200uV too will show up and how the noise will be.

- The internal reference oscillator PN specifications and nothing about the synthesizer jitter in various time/div

- Do we have a 10MHz reference output?

- FFT with rtHz scaling, this would knock out many others from Asia

[tooki]

Does it support Ali-pay, Apple pay and Google pay? Tap your phone to have 10 minutes of protocol decoding.

Honestly, I wish the scope makers were willing to rent expensive options for short periods, precisely for when you just need it for a bit.

[tv84]

Does it support Ali-pay, Apple pay and Google pay? Tap your phone to have 10 minutes of protocol decoding.

Honestly, I wish the scope makers were willing to rent expensive options for short periods, precisely for when you just need it for a bit.

From all that I know, only R&S has currently a licensing scheme that would easily allow such feature. A nightmare for all others.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Do we have a 10MHz reference output?

The wavegen output should probably be representative of the reference

[Jay_Diddy_B]

Why do they have the illuminated buttons and also the LEDs next to them? Do they do different things?

I think:

The button illumination indicates the channel is being displayed on the screen.
The LEDs indicate which channel the gain and offset knobs will modify.

Regards,
Jay_Diddy_B

[tooki]

Does it support Ali-pay, Apple pay and Google pay? Tap your phone to have 10 minutes of protocol decoding.

Honestly, I wish the scope makers were willing to rent expensive options for short periods, precisely for when you just need it for a bit.

From all that I know, only R&S has currently a licensing scheme that would easily allow such feature. A nightmare for all others.

How do you figure? As best I can tell, all the scope makers support time-limited “demos” of individual option licenses. It’s just that right now, their reps can give those out for free for testing, but usually just once or twice before their bosses get mad. I wish they just sold those time-limited licenses so we could just license certain features as needed.

[tv84]

How do you figure? As best I can tell, all the scope makers support time-limited “demos” of individual option licenses. It’s just that right now, their reps can give those out for free for testing, but usually just once or twice before their bosses get mad. I wish they just sold those time-limited licenses so we could just license certain features as needed.

Sure they do but the problem is the minimum time interval.

For most that is days. The R&S system can potentially generate licenses for a specific date/hour, with minutes granularity. To fully answer your rent periods wish, you need a system like this.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

Why do they have the illuminated buttons and also the LEDs next to them? Do they do different things?

I think:

The button illumination indicates the channel is being displayed on the screen.
The LEDs indicate which channel the gain and offset knobs will modify.

Regards,
Jay_Diddy_B

Yes, the button LEDs indicate whether or not a channel is on. The other LEDs indicate multiplexed knob control. A bit of a nuance at first but is something that's pretty easy to get used to (in my experience).

[Martin72]

37:10 - 14bit ADC TESTED

Could you explain which settings you used?
2mV/div, 50 Ohm is clear.
Which FFT setup/window?
The signal:
Is it 15µV which is passed through an attenuator and then reduced again or is the 15µV present at the scope after the attenuator?

[TheSteve]

Daniel,

New scope looks great. How about trading an HD3 model for a very cool MSOX3024T modified to 1GHz +? You'd get a piece of history demonstrating just how crazy and desperate your customers can be! 

[jc101]

I’d happily swap my MSOX3104T with all the licences enabled for an HD3 of similar spec. Downside is I need both of my kidneys.

[nfmax]

It seems the lowest hardware gain range is 2mV/div. I would assume the ADC input full scale would be somewhere around ±5 divisions, or ±10mV, for the 14 bits. On the lower gain ranges, does the ADC full scale voltage remain the same i.e. ±10 divisions at 1mV/div, ±20 divisions at 500uV/div? Or is some of the improved ADC resolution used to extend the full scale further beyond the top & bottom of the screen?

[Wolfgang]

All that matters is the final measurement update rate, 7 times faster is still 7 times faster, AND you still keep the high update rate for capture as well.

What I am missing:

- As locking for the maximal FFT size (somewhere mentioned HD3 as 32M FFT) as may licensed memory dependent.
  This would anyway lower the update rate. While did not find any specifications.

- How the ENOB on 100uV as may 200uV too will show up and how the noise will be.

- The internal reference oscillator PN specifications and nothing about the synthesizer jitter in various time/div

- Do we have a 10MHz reference output?

- FFT with rtHz scaling, this would knock out many others from Asia

Be wary at very low voltage ranges. They are normally "upscaled", i.e. not really measured but simulated by software. This means ENOB there is lousy.

Look here: https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/to-enob-or-not-to-enob/

[tv84]

HD3 UI true annoyances for me (from what I saw on Dave's video):

- the screen size and resolution and consequential no-scaling
- the frameless split screens (give it a cheap look , IMO)
- the vertical axes values being on the right
- the top channels/menu bar should be on the bottom

I leave all the engine analysis for the experts, but at the UI level, the MXO4 is much more polished than the HD3. It looks like KS tried to innovate but, IMO, this is an engineering instrument not a smartphone skin project. Much less if we consider that it's something that can cost ~20k€.

[nctnico]

HD3 UI true annoyances for me (from what I saw on Dave's video):

- the screen size and resolution and consequential no-scaling
- the frameless split screens (give it a cheap look , IMO)
- the vertical axes values being on the right
- the top channels/menu bar should be on the bottom

I leave all the engine analysis for the experts, but at the UI level, the MXO4 is much more polished than the HD3. It looks like KS tried to innovate but, IMO, this is an engineering instrument not a smartphone skin project. Much less if we consider that it's something that can cost ~20k€.

I agree. The menus on the HD3 are too deep. They should design the UI to only open one extra window selected from a primary or secundary menu bar. Brands like Micsig and R&S got this right IMHO.

As an example: selecting measurements on the R&S RTM3004 is much easier with pictures that show what the measurements actually do. I have a Lecroy 7300A Wavepro and that has a similar way of selecting measurements (like the KS HD3) which I loath. Scrolling through a long list on a touchscreen just isn't comfortable. Especially when you need to look for something particular which isn't / can't be sorted by the nature of the items.

[Martin72]

I agree. The menus on the HD3 are too deep. They should design the UI to only open one extra window selected from a primary or secundary menu bar. Brands like Micsig and R&S got this right IMHO.

For me, the MAUI from lecroy is the benchmark.
I'll make a little video of it when I get the chance.

[shabaz]

The signal:
Is it 15µV which is passed through an attenuator and then reduced again or is the 15µV present at the scope after the attenuator?

Speculating, but I think it could be 15uV RMS generator setting, and then followed by the attenuator, because 15uV RMS is easily discernible on MXO 4 with approx. similar span and realistic RBW. I had the attached screenshot on my PC, it is set to auto RBW, and it looks like it chose 40 kHz. Some number manipulation is needed on the screenshot because I happened to set the scale to dBuV and I wasn't using a 50 ohm setup for that particular test either. In the video, the RBW is 99 kHz on the MXO, and the HD3 has a bin size of 25 kHz or so.

From memory even 15uV RMS followed by 12 dB attenuator should still be discernible on the MXO, although likely with finer RBW on the MXO than currently set.

The spectrum 'capabilities' (I'm vaguely combining configurability/usability/features/performance) on the MXO 4 are exceptionally good (to the level that I often don't want to use a normal SA if I don't have to - and I have a pretty decent Keysight SA), so if the HD3 in any way approaches that MXO bar (and also has lower noise), then that's pretty impressive, since low noise on an ADC on it's own isn't sufficient.

[EEVblog]

Two buck probe being "just as good" for what, exactly? A £20 100MHz scope yes, but not a £20000 1GHz scope - certainly not.

Bullshit. There is a long history of DIY coax probes being used for high end measurement work. The commercial ones exist because most people with a budget want something that's already characterised.