Author Topic: NEW Keysight HD3  (Read 59538 times)

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Offline mawyatt

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #150 on: August 21, 2024, 05:58:42 pm »
I dunno if another one of these "inside scoop" presentations is in order, but this one for the Stingray ADC was super cool: https://youtu.be/pdbzIwelCL4?t=99

KS learned a lot (everyone did!!) from the famous Fujitsu 8 Bit 65GSPS Dual ADC in 65nm CMOS developed way back for early Fiber Optic use.

The DARPA guys couldn't believe this and were really pissed that Fujitsu invoked reverse exportation rules that they restricted use for only verified commercial applications!!

That's a great video, thanks for posting!! Noted he didn't mention the Fujitsu ADC, as this likely preceeded the KS efforts!!

Best,
« Last Edit: August 21, 2024, 06:16:11 pm by mawyatt »
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Offline jjoonathan

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #151 on: August 21, 2024, 06:17:29 pm »
I dunno if another one of these "inside scoop" presentations is in order, but this one for the Stingray ADC was super cool: https://youtu.be/pdbzIwelCL4?t=99

KS learned a lot (everyone did!!) from the famous Fujitsu 8 Bit 65GSPS Dual ADC in 65nm CMOS developed way back for early Fiber Optic use.


Is this the paper? https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4523224 It's one of the few hits that I can find on search for those keywords (other than tons of people talking about it, lol).

EDIT: nope, this is the trail: https://www.fujitsu.com/cn/en/Images/56G_ADC_FactSheet-en.pdf but I haven't found the paper yet.

The idea that future gains would come from getting good at interleaving was one of the things I took away from the Stingray presentation, so that fits.

It's a bit of a bummer because my R&S scope uses an ADC that went down the other path and while this did wonderful things for ENOB, it has been many years and they have yet to release a followup, so I wonder if they didn't run head first into this wall. Ah well, they've released a few high speed interleaving designs since then, I'm sure they'll get over it. Besides, none of this "cheering for sports teams" is rational to begin with, but ADCs are such wonderful engineering puzzles that I just can't resist the temptation to armchair engineer, lol.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2024, 06:25:27 pm by jjoonathan »
 
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #152 on: August 21, 2024, 06:57:05 pm »
I dunno if another one of these "inside scoop" presentations is in order, but this one for the Stingray ADC was super cool: https://youtu.be/pdbzIwelCL4?t=99

KS learned a lot (everyone did!!) from the famous Fujitsu 8 Bit 65GSPS Dual ADC in 65nm CMOS developed way back for early Fiber Optic use.


Is this the paper? https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4523224 It's one of the few hits that I can find on search for those keywords (other than tons of people talking about it, lol).

EDIT: nope, this is the trail: https://www.fujitsu.com/cn/en/Images/56G_ADC_FactSheet-en.pdf but I haven't found the paper yet.

The idea that future gains would come from getting good at interleaving was one of the things I took away from the Stingray presentation, so that fits.

It's a bit of a bummer because my R&S scope uses an ADC that went down the other path and while this did wonderful things for ENOB, it has been many years and they have yet to release a followup, so I wonder if they didn't run head first into this wall. Ah well, they've released a few high speed interleaving designs since then, I'm sure they'll get over it. Besides, none of this "cheering for sports teams" is rational to begin with, but ADCs are such wonderful engineering puzzles that I just can't resist the temptation to armchair engineer, lol.

We witnessed the Fugi ADC well before these were published, can't recall the exact date, and soon informed DARPA about it tho.

The ADC started out as 56GSPS then quickly jumped to 65GSPS, had a large array of SAR ADCs with a massive array of small bit number DACs for corrections. This part really set the stage for future high speed ADCs and achieved this performance with 65nm plain CMOS :-+


Would have fun to sit in on the original design concept back when 65nm was a leading technology, probably went something like this:

Designers 1) We want to build a 56GSPS 8 BIT ADC in our new 65nm CMOS for FO use!!
Management 1) We don't have a long history in ADC development, and this is well beyond SOTA!!
Designers 2) That's OK we are Real Smart!!
Managers 2) And how are you proposing to do this??
Designers 3) We'll use hundreds and hundreds of Capacitive Ratioed SAR ADC stages!!
Managers 3) SARs are slow!!
Designers 4) Yep, that's why we'll use hundreds and hundreds!!
Managers 4) Then how are you going to connect them all up??
Designers 5) We'll sample the Inputs with hundreds and hundreds of samplers!!
Managers 5) What about the digital side??
Designers 6) We'll Mux everything with really fast logic!!
Managers 6) Ok, don't you need to match all the individual SARs??
Designers 7) Yep, we'll use large arrays of correction DACs for each SAR ADC!!
Managers 7) So these DACs will correct all the SAR errors and match them, and that's a lot of DACs??
Designers 8~) Yep and we'll get ENOBs around 6 bits or better from all this!!
Managers 8~) Will this correction routine be built-in??
Designers 9) Yep!!
Managers 9) So you think you can do this in 65nm CMOS??
Designers 10) Yep!!
Managers 10) Sounds good!!
Designers 11) BTW we will put two complete 56GSPS ADCs on one chip!!
Managers 11) Well of course!!

Best,
« Last Edit: August 21, 2024, 07:46:02 pm by mawyatt »
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Offline jjoonathan

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #153 on: August 21, 2024, 07:16:27 pm »
Hmm, if the leading designs are heavily interleaved anyway and vertical performance is ultimately limited by your ability to vertically match an entire farm of modest speed ADCs... maybe NUS plays into it after all. Maybe a crazy vertical architecture can do better than just throwing gain/offset/(second order?) DACs at the problem :popcorn:
 
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #154 on: August 21, 2024, 07:33:40 pm »
Hmm, if the leading designs are heavily interleaved anyway and vertical performance is ultimately limited by your ability to vertically match an entire farm of modest speed ADCs... maybe NUS plays into it after all. Maybe a crazy vertical architecture can do better than just throwing gain/offset/(second order?) DACs at the problem :popcorn:

Very astute observation ;)

BTW see what we posted above by edit after your post :-+

Best,
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Offline Keysight DanielBogdanoff

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #155 on: August 21, 2024, 07:37:24 pm »
I dunno if another one of these "inside scoop" presentations is in order, but this one for the Stingray ADC was super cool: https://youtu.be/pdbzIwelCL4?t=99

I'd sure like to, it was tricky getting cleared to post that one.
 
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #156 on: August 21, 2024, 07:52:07 pm »
Come on Dan, ask Mark P, Ken N or Tim S if you can enlighten us ;D

BTW Mark showed us the Griffin DAC way back in ~2009, maybe earlier. Fun story started with a beer in line at the IEEE MTT RFIC Symposium ;)

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #157 on: August 22, 2024, 03:10:16 am »
I asked them about that actually, and they said they'll ask R&D. So it sounds like like there is no marketing info boasting about it.
In my experience, any ground-breaking / game-changing / unique features of a new product usually are very widely known within the company, especially less than a month before launch.  If someone has to ask R&D about a new product feature, it very likely either isn't there or isn't that important :)

Well the jump past 12bits is pretty big IMO. But marketing just might not be that excited to share exactly how they achieved that, it's just another "banner spec" to them. But us nerds care  ;D
 
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Offline chilternview

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #158 on: August 22, 2024, 06:40:36 am »
KS learned a lot (everyone did!!) from the famous Fujitsu 8 Bit 65GSPS Dual ADC in 65nm CMOS developed way back for early Fiber Optic use.

If that's the group I think it is, I knew the manager of the Fuji team who designed the Fuji Gb fibre optic chips here in the UK. Sadly he passed away some years ago.
 

Offline andrewtaylor

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #159 on: August 22, 2024, 08:05:07 am »
All I can say in that regard is: the mountain laboured and brought forth a mouse.  :=\
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #160 on: August 22, 2024, 09:02:33 am »
All I can say in that regard is: the mountain laboured and brought forth a mouse.  :=\

Hehe, we have very similar proverb "Mountains shaked, mouse was born.."

As for this Keysight new scope, we'll see when they release.
When we see real numbers, not this nothing burger teaser stuff...
« Last Edit: August 22, 2024, 09:04:59 am by 2N3055 »
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #161 on: August 22, 2024, 09:22:03 am »
As for this Keysight new scope, we'll see when they release.
When we see real numbers, not this nothing burger teaser stuff...

Numbers have aleady been posted here by various people.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #162 on: August 22, 2024, 09:57:59 am »
As for this Keysight new scope, we'll see when they release.
When we see real numbers, not this nothing burger teaser stuff...

Numbers have aleady been posted here by various people.

14bit sticker (stated). (R&S has written 16bit on some 8 bit scopes with oversampling...)
Half the noise (without specifying in comparison to what).
Memory is:20 MPts or "not correct there is more" or "there are models listed with 20 MPts"..

These are not numbers.
That is not even proper rumors...

Not even datasheet shows the whole truth..

So yeah, I'll wait for numbers...


 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #163 on: August 22, 2024, 10:20:20 am »
You have price, so you know what the basic competition is, so that means you know what "half the noise" is in comparison with. You have the ADC, and you have the absolute minimum memory (if it's not a mistake). That's plenty of info for a scope that's not released, and enough to know if it potentially interests you or not.
If you want to believe the ADC isn't real, ok, your choice.
I haven't seen the actual scope or a full datasheet, but:
« Last Edit: August 22, 2024, 12:29:05 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #164 on: August 22, 2024, 11:11:09 am »
Interestingly, I didn't know Keysight did a 1GHz passive probe  :o
https://www.keysight.com/au/en/product/PP0001A/hi-z-probe.html
 
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Online tautech

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #165 on: August 22, 2024, 12:02:12 pm »
Interestingly, I didn't know Keysight did a 1GHz passive probe  :o
https://www.keysight.com/au/en/product/PP0001A/hi-z-probe.html
They have 1.5 GHz competition coming very soon.  :-X

How much $ ?
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #166 on: August 22, 2024, 12:17:06 pm »
Interestingly, I didn't know Keysight did a 1GHz passive probe  :o
https://www.keysight.com/au/en/product/PP0001A/hi-z-probe.html
They have 1.5 GHz competition coming very soon.  :-X
How much $ ?

US$1091
 
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Online tautech

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #167 on: August 22, 2024, 12:18:40 pm »
Interestingly, I didn't know Keysight did a 1GHz passive probe  :o
https://www.keysight.com/au/en/product/PP0001A/hi-z-probe.html
They have 1.5 GHz competition coming very soon.  :-X
How much $ ?
US$1091
/4

Will be similar to PP0003A but 10x and half the tip capacitance.
Release is next month.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2024, 01:07:39 pm by tautech »
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #168 on: August 22, 2024, 12:29:43 pm »
I haven't seen the full datasheet

Speak of the devil  8)
 
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #169 on: August 22, 2024, 01:21:11 pm »
Interestingly, I didn't know Keysight did a 1GHz passive probe  :o
https://www.keysight.com/au/en/product/PP0001A/hi-z-probe.html
Yeah, with 4pF input capacitance. My scope lists 14pF on the front panel.
And apparently you need a probe adapter for it to be used with your Keysight scope:
https://prc.keysight.com/Content/PDF_Files/PP0002-97000.pdf

So it's a passive probe, that it's also active.

I guess it's an attempt to mitigate the input capacitance. There seems to be some clever digital probe compensation, and I'm guessing that they increase the high frequency gain to compensate for the low-pass roll off. Clever. Not passive though.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #170 on: August 22, 2024, 01:54:16 pm »
From the datasheet:
Input Resistance @DC || Capacitance
10 MW || 4.0 pF
40 MW || 2.0 pF
10 MW || 4.0 pF

Probably an error with fonts/codepages... Ω sometime renders into W
So now we have 40 megawatt probes... :-)

EDIT: added screenshot od d.s.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2024, 03:33:34 pm by 2N3055 »
 
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Offline Zucca

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #171 on: August 22, 2024, 02:31:15 pm »
From the datasheet:
Input Resistance @DC || Capacitance
10 MW || 4.0 pF
40 MW || 2.0 pF
10 MW || 4.0 pF

Take a screenshot and post here
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/stock-electronic-image-fails/

PS:
Maybe it's the max input power, that would be certainty a ground breaking new technology.
Pic leaked from the HD3 KS test lab

« Last Edit: August 22, 2024, 02:35:51 pm by Zucca »
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Offline pdenisowski

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #172 on: August 22, 2024, 06:55:19 pm »
PS:
Maybe it's the max input power, that would be certainty a ground breaking new technology.
Pic leaked from the HD3 KS test lab


"These 'scopes go to CAT XI....!"
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Offline SWB

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #173 on: August 22, 2024, 08:30:19 pm »
I haven't seen the full datasheet

Speak of the devil  8)

Hmm, haven't found the datasheet, but I did find two PDF app notes via Bing that are pretty revealing. ;)
 
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Offline Anthocyanina

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Re: NEW Keysight HD3
« Reply #174 on: August 22, 2024, 08:59:26 pm »
I haven't seen the full datasheet

Speak of the devil  8)

Hmm, haven't found the datasheet, but I did find two PDF app notes via Bing that are pretty revealing. ;)

If that is indeed legit (which it appears to be🤔) and not a montage of sorts, that display bezel is very early 2000s, hmmm!

edit: it looks like the bezel is not much thicker than other current scopes, just that it's so compact its thickness looks exaggerated?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2024, 09:19:03 pm by Anthocyanina »
 


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