NEW Keysight HD3

[EEVblog]

I doubt that scopes with this price point will be used in educational settings?

The point about education was 2CH scopes in general, e.g. the DSOX1202G
It would be a very specifc educational requirement for a $20k 1GHz 2CH scope.

[EEVblog]

2-Channel versions? Really? Is there still a market for 2-Channel Scopes?

Education, and specific applications where you need the scope for the specs but not the channels. Not everyone buys a scope for general purpose use.

Some end up in production test rigs where they spend their entire life on a single setting

Yes, I've set up many such rigs in my career as a test engineer. Not just scopes, same for many bits of kit.

[EEVblog]

Ok I get that. Would have assumed that long-running automated test rigs use special equipment without front panels or something. Still surprised, but I believe you

Depends on the requirement.
Because test jigs are one-off, or very small runs like a dozen units, it's way less work to use off the shelf gear and mount them in a 19" rack for example. So if you are a test engineer tasked with designing a test system, you usually have a decent budget but limited time and resources, so you choose the easiest option. This would mean buying all expensive off the shelf gear that just works. But you don't want to piss away the money because, you know, you are engineering and being somewhat frugal is part of your human nature, so if you know your test rig only needs a 2CH scope then you buy the 2CH scope and not 4CH.

This Linus Tech Tips video is a classic example:


Here is very old video of mine about the design of a fully custom LCR meter for a mobile test environment. This was basically a portable version of the 19" rack versions we had on the production test floor than ran commercial off-the-shelf test gear like the Agilent 4339B that cost over $10k just for a high resistance meter, and the test leads for it cost $2k a set.
I had to do this design fully custom because I couldn't get off-the-shelf gear small enough for the physical requirement to use on back deck of a boat.

[EEVblog]

There are markets for $100K-$1M scopes and there are markets for $1K-$5K scopes, but who is going to spend $30K at Keysight when they could get the same thing for $10K out of China?

I've done a video on this, apply it to any of the major big brands like Keysight, Tek, R&S, Lecroy.
As always, YMMV

[mawyatt]

I doubt that scopes with this price point will be used in educational settings?
And still, if there is just a hint of truth to the price table postet above, the price difference between 2-Ch entry and 4-Ch entry is something like 900€, or about 9% of the overall price for entry. I just can't imagine there to be a real market where you would buy 50% of the scope for 9% lower price...

They are. Companies completely bankroll university courses, and pay for the same equipment as the company is using. So the students have experience with it by the time they are graduated. I heard Bosch saying they need hundreds of engineers in their automotive field per year, they have millions of EURs of budget to make this happen.

We did this back in 90s for the WAMI Lab founding. HP, Tektronix, R&S, Anritsu and others donated some really nice equipment for the lab, we ended up donating ~$1/2M cash overall. This was sold to company management as "it's cheaper to let students learn on the latest equipment while still in school rather than while employed"!!

Management bought in and it worked, now WAMI Lab has grown considerably, even spawing the IEEE WAMI Conference held every spring

Best,

[nctnico]

I doubt that scopes with this price point will be used in educational settings?

The point about education was 2CH scopes in general, e.g. the DSOX1202G
It would be a very specifc educational requirement for a $20k 1GHz 2CH scope.

Typically you find one or two scopes in this price range at a university lab though.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I doubt that scopes with this price point will be used in educational settings?

The point about education was 2CH scopes in general, e.g. the DSOX1202G
It would be a very specifc educational requirement for a $20k 1GHz 2CH scope.

Typically you find one or two scopes in this price range at a university lab though.

And there's a good chance they'd have paid a lot lower than list price for them

[exmadscientist]

Why do people still buy the big brands?

Probes. Don't forget probes.

And I don't just mean probes already purchased. You can trust that Tek or HPAK or LeCroy will have something to probe whatever you need probed. Rigol and Siglent... maybe.

And there are a few unique probes out there. Tek's TDP1000 (aka TDP0500) has swayed purchasing decisions just by existing. It's basically the perfect scope probe: fully differential, 1GHz, 1Meg input impedance. No one else has anything like it, not Keysight, not LeCroy, no one. Yes, everyone has something similar, but no one matches it all. (And before you say you don't need fully differential -- it's not always about being differential, sometimes it's just about getting great SI quickly. These things beat the pants off those little spring coil ground tips in every way.) It's kinda drifty (damn JFETs?), it's faster than you usually need, and it'd be nice if its smaller range handled +/-5V directly but... it's really, really useful.

You'll know Siglent is serious about world domination when they clone the TDP1000 and release it for less than a used one costs on eBay.

[TomKatt]

And there are a few unique probes out there. Tek's TDP1000 (aka TDP0500) has swayed purchasing decisions just by existing. It's basically the perfect scope probe: fully differential, 1GHz, 1Meg input impedance. No one else has anything like it, not Keysight, not LeCroy, no one.

I have no experience with either of these, but the Micsig SigOfit optical differential probe seems like it’s comparable…. At 1/2 the price.

[Zucca]

Honestly I'm not sure I understand the role for a $20K-$50K oscilloscope, especially if Keysight is going to continue to be stingy with acquisition memory at that level of play.  There are markets for $100K-$1M scopes and there are markets for $1K-$5K scopes, but who is going to spend $30K at Keysight when they could get the same thing for $10K out of China? 

110% this.
After seeing today Siglent (even RigLOL) value/price I somehow regret to have spent 5 years ago big $$$ for my Keysight MSOX3.

Maybe part of KS strategy to close the door to hobbyists and home labs.
They have already given up in that market segment: without company/business budget, KS knows they will not sell anything.

[TomKatt]

Maybe part of KS strategy to close the door to hobbyists and home labs.
They have already given up in that market segment: without company/business budget, KS knows they will not sell anything.

My tinfoil hat wonders if their business model isn’t fabricated around the subsidizing of R&D / Engineering / Manufacturing so that their products will be specified in downstream testing and quality assurance protocols?  I believe Dave did a video on why Fluke et al were so expensive is because they not only have a history of accuracy, but they are also specified as the testing procedures…. Edit - Dave’s video just above lol.

[nctnico]

Why do people still buy the big brands?

Be happy you don't know. I know why and I'm not happy.

[jjoonathan]

You can't say you negotiated a huge discount if the price was reasonable to begin with 

[EEVblog]

Honestly I'm not sure I understand the role for a $20K-$50K oscilloscope, especially if Keysight is going to continue to be stingy with acquisition memory at that level of play.  There are markets for $100K-$1M scopes and there are markets for $1K-$5K scopes, but who is going to spend $30K at Keysight when they could get the same thing for $10K out of China? 

110% this.
After seeing today Siglent (even RigLOL) value/price I somehow regret to have spent 5 years ago big $$$ for my Keysight MSOX3.

Has it been an excellent performer for you?
With all the scopes I have, if you have to ask me which scoep I prefer to use, it's still the Keysight.

Maybe part of KS strategy to close the door to hobbyists and home labs. They have already given up in that market segment: without company/business budget, KS knows they will not sell anything.

Keysight has never really been in the hobbyist/home lab market (same for Tek and Lecroy), I don't know why people expect them to be? Especially now given that there are half a dozen major brands that cater to this specific market.

Anyway, I can say that this new HD3 has something that no other scope in the same market has. So you can't "get the same out of the China", at least not yet.

And FYI, it seems my HD3 is on the truck somewhere...

[egonotto]

Hello,

is there anything you can already tell us?

Best regards
egonotto

[EEVblog]

is there anything you can already tell us?

Enough has already been releaved for you to know.

Spoiler: It has probe compensation.

[tautech]

Spoiler: It has probe compensation.

And probe attenuation check/verification ?

[Someone]

Spoiler: It has probe compensation.

And probe attenuation check/verification ?

Being "3" series likely active probe, check, and calibration for some.

[tautech]

Spoiler: It has probe compensation.

And probe attenuation check/verification ?

Being "3" series likely active probe, check, and calibration for some.

As one might expect and all available in SDS3000X HD......

[egonotto]

Hello,

I'm curious to see if the Batronix Magnova class and the HD3 class have a non-empty intersection.

Best regards
egonotto

[tooki]

2-Channel versions? Really? Is there still a market for 2-Channel Scopes?

At work, there are a bunch of labs where oscilloscopes are parts of more-or-less permanent installations. If not for the bandwidth requirements, a $300 Rigol would have more than enough features. (And indeed, some of these scopes are absolutely ancient. And others are indeed low end.) These are almost all used for just one or two channels, so most of them are 2-channel scopes.

So while I would never, ever recommend a 2-channel scope as someone’s all-purpose bench scope, there definitely are uses for 2-channel scopes. (And if they sold them, even for single-channel models!)

[2N3055]

Hello,

I'm curious to see if the Batronix Magnova class and the HD3 class have a non-empty intersection.

Best regards
egonotto

I (personally) see them as completely different types of devices in pretty much every aspect.

[jusaca]

I (personally) see them as completely different types of devices in pretty much every aspect.

Why?
What details do you know already?

[2N3055]

I (personally) see them as completely different types of devices in pretty much every aspect.

Why?
What details do you know already?

Form factor, price, BW...

[mikeselectricstuff]

Anyway, I can say that this new HD3 has something that no other scope in the same market has.

Something genuinely useful & innovative, or a gimmick/niche thing?