New Keysight 3458A - in black

[balage]

Hi Guys,

Have you seen the black 3458A? https://www.htest.hu/keysight-3458a-new-version

It seems Keysight has renewed the super 3458A DMM. Black is a little weird...

But they have not added LAN connentivity. 

[Grandchuck]

I read the posts on the Metrology forum and it has been reported there that this meter is not a huge seller for Keysight.  The customers are folks in the semiconductor manufacturing industry and those with need of transfer standards.

I assume, therefore, that the GPIB interface is still appropriate.  Most customers are using legacy software and hardware?

[TiN]

And that's a photoshop image and not a real photo

[balage]

Yeah, I am the one who don't have to deal with the GPIB of a 3458A - because I don't have one.

@TiN: Which part is photoshopped? Displays always have fake characters. I bet you have this new one.

[Dr. Frank]

There's already been the 2018 AN: 'Calculating Uncertainty using Digital
Multimeter Ratio Measurement Techniques', containing pictures of this black, overhauled 3458A.

KS need RoHS compliant electronics, as the previously stocked EU market EU3458A may be depleted.. and also this >30 years old design now has probably many terminated components inside, so that it is becoming more and more difficult to make bodges, or the longterm stock for old components is also depleted, meanwhile.
So what we have heard end of May, that a transfer design was done on all PCBs, from through-hole to SMD technology, updating also many component types.
KS has no real development team anymore, so the schematic, software and so on is untouched.

The rerouted,  smaller PCBs should be backward compatible, so that new spare PCBs might also go into old instrument.

Hopefully, the new, tighter packed layout did not let the magic escape, that may be under investigation, being the reason why it's not been released, yet.

Frank

[pansku]

At least according to our distributor, the new unit is also cheaper. I'm still waiting on confirmation that he indeed meant the black model when he quoted 9k€ for "new RoHS compliant 3458A with extended memory". The old model EU3458A was around 10k€ and EU3458AX with high stability and extended memory was around 11,5k€.

[Zucca]

This thread will be quickly moved to the metrology section.

[balage]

KS has no real development team anymore, so the schematic, software and so on is untouched.

How do you mean that? They have released the UXR scope a few months ago. It must be their own development.

[merox]

KS has no real development team anymore, so the schematic, software and so on is untouched.

How do you mean that? They have released the UXR scope a few months ago. It must be their own development.

I think he just means that there is no dedicated team for the 3458A anymore (would be more than surprising after all those years).

[Dr. Frank]

Of course, their 3458A dev. team is gone..retired, gone to Keithley,  passed away..
The last engineers and PM from that era just designed the 34465/470 a few years ago..
Anyhow, in all these 30 years, nobody touched the magic design, apart from small things. If anybody documented the crucial design features, I don't believe..
The redesign obviously was done by an engineer/team who is aware of the RoHS requirements, probably somebody in EU.
Frank

[Kleinstein]

They probably could still do some changes to the digital part (e.g. use different memories) and maybe use a replacement for the old battery buffered memory. Changes to the analog part are tricky and may need a lot of new tests, even for relatively minor changes.

Of cause Keysight still has some development teams, but not so much in the precision DC range. Below some 1 ppm  some strange things start to become important. So it is different from more RF part needed for scopes and some of this is not regularly learned at the universities.

[dr.diesel]

If market demanded 8.5 digits in the late 80s for purpose X, wouldn't the need for greater precision still be growing 30 years later?  Are the semiconductor heavy weights simply building custom instruments these days?

No Intel skunkworks people read here to drop any hints?

[MadTux]

What happens to the magic U180 on that update?
As far as I know, that was always the part which made 3458A as good as it is. And it's the weak part, that kills them beyond repair.
So they redesign that chip or do they still have enough of them available? Or do they still make them on some kind of old fab line?

[Kleinstein]

I would expect them to still use the old style U180 special chip. Everything else would essentially be a new ADC design.
They may still produce new ones, possibly using old silicon dies.

If they were brave they may have changed some of the special comparators - but even this may be risky (possible need for new tweaks).
Different OPs at some point's could lead to slightly lower noise or lower power consumption.

Not all the 3458 were bought because of there accuracy. The 3458 was also one of the fastest at 6 digits. Here modern ones like the 34470 or DMM7510 could replace it.

[0culus]

If market demanded 8.5 digits in the late 80s for purpose X, wouldn't the need for greater precision still be growing 30 years later?  Are the semiconductor heavy weights simply building custom instruments these days?

No Intel skunkworks people read here to drop any hints?

Don't work for Intel or any competitors, but...

...AFAIK this is exactly what happens. Another example is logic analyzers. Only a select few industries still use them (DRAM manufacturers primarily, but also in the cybersecurity area) as modern integrated parts simply aren't compatible with that type of probing. Custom test rigs for sure. Or JTAG and boundary scan.

[edit] in fact, Tektronix announced discontinuation of their logic analyzer lineup earlier this year, recommending their MSOs as replacements (!)

[maxwell3e10]

Its surprising they didn't completely overhaul the digital section to add trend plots and other 33470 features. And what modern instrument doesn't include a USB memory stick port. They just added an RS232 port - so its upgraded from 1980s to ... 1990s.
Perhaps they are just not looking to increase sales numbers due to difficulty of sourcing some of the parts.

So much for hoping the price of used 3458A will drop somewhat, nobody will get this meter as an upgrade.

[Berni]

Ewww. Yeah it is ugly in black.

But yeah the fact that it has the same model number means there is no significant change under the hood. If there was it would have at least gotten a B on the end.

Id say they just compacted down the digital stuff and moved it onto new SMD parts. They often do this on old gear where they shove all the digital logic spaghetti into a CPLD/FPGA and reduce the whole CPU board down to just a few major chips. Resulting in a board that is under 1/2 the size, is easier and cheaper to produce but still runs the same firmware. I hope they figured out a way to get rid of those darn Dallas NV-RAM chips. I have already eliminated them in one HP 3458A by replacing them with FRAM memory and it works great now giving me a 100 year data retention time. I hope Keysight does something similar as a official thing.

[dom0]

I'd be funny if the black input connectors now have an input leakage problem.

[dacman]

U180 was replaced with a daughterboard 10 years ago or more.
A different type of memory was being used by Keysight or Agilent about 5 years ago.

[TheSteve]

U180 was replaced with a daughterboard 10 years ago or more.
A different type of memory was being used by Keysight or Agilent about 5 years ago.

I don't believe U180 has ever changed. Some other parts have changed on the A3 board though.

[egonotto]

Hello,

perhaps they are fans of AC/DC
https://youtu.be/pAgnJDJN4VA

Best regards
egonotto

[dacman]

A few years ago I bought a new A3 card from Keysight and where U180 normally is was a daughterboard that extended to the left.  I could tell there were parts under it to the left but it was mounted where U180 normally is (and I did not notice if U180 was still there and assumed it was not).  If U180 is still there it has a rider on it.

I've sent a couple of units to Keysight, in which they stated that U180 was replaced and mentioned something about A13, which I take as being the daughterboard.

[splin]

And what modern instrument doesn't include a USB memory stick port.

Who the hell uses USB memory sticks these days? Weren't they a late 90's, early naughties thing? 

[Zucca]

yesterday I was at the Produtronica 2019 here in Munich



As I told already in the TEA thread:

Do you really (I mean really?) think I just looked at it without asking?

1) They need to hunt for retired Keys... ehm HP eng. to design the black version. That thing is a glorious masterpiece like the SR-71, and you need eng with serious balls to design it. Not everyone can do it.
Amazing.
2) Keysight already tried to design in the past one with a touch screen (no VFD) and "Apple Steve Jobs" feeling for the users. It did not went good they needed to stop the project.
I think bd139 would say "they fell flat on their arse".
3) They can change the color but not the name. If they do all the certifications (i.e. for military) need to be re-done as well, a lot of papers and a pain in the ass for them and the customers.
By keeping the same name they can sell the unit immediately.
4) If took so long to find the Rohs components that when they decided to use some rohs parts were already obsolete. Back to square one.
5) No it is not the biggest project at Keysight, UXR1102A is the winner. This 8,5 puppy is an easy lego game compared to the 110GHz scope.
6) Now they are still trying the 2), go go Keysight you can do it!



One day I will have it on my bench.

[tszaboo]

I doubt anything was changed on the inside. The GPIB connection doesnt matter, you just buy a E5810B and use it, the price is negligible.
I found it more interesting years ago, that their own software had trouble with the meter. It was  because all their new instruments supported some "ID? "or something like that command, and this one didn't so it couldn't discover the meter.
Anyway, the color doesnt really matter. It's like when you get a very nice company car, but you dont like the color. You just get used to it, and be like: I'm going to measure microvolt differences, something that few other meters can, with this black meter.