Need help! Test bench equipment recommendations. $2k+ budget

[tggzzz]

Congratulations to the OP for his thoughtful post. That kind of thought will be very useful throughout their career.

I encourage them to think about how they can use whatever they have to its fullest advantage. That will stand them in good stead throughout their career.

In that vein, it is instructive to consider what scope you would choose if your job is to create the world's fastest scope. That kind of question may arise throughout your career.

Finally, we the aphorism in my .SIG, and think about its relevance to yourquestion.

[porter]

If looking at used equipment, consider a Fluke 8050A. A  4 1/2 digit meter  with 0.03% dc accuracy. Usually under $50 with a low shipping cost (on ebay).

[ehobby]

Geneonline,
I would like to make some observations on function generators and signal sources. I have a bunch of different ones, low tech/home built to high end HP, Tek, R&S, Systron, Kenwood and Wavetek (lifelong collection).

Function Generators and Signal Sources:
I have gravitated to using a Wavetek 166 as my first choice (got two for ~$300 on ebay). Mine has a cheap (~$10) frequency counter module attached to the TTL output since it is an analog function generator. I can generate all sorts of waveforms, has modulation inputs, a reasonable voltage output range/offset, complementary TTL outputs, and good for driving a lot of things. If I need more accuracy or dual output (adjustable phase related) I use a Tek AFG 1062. The Tek is has better accuracy and cleaner output but for most things the Wavetek is easier to use (and has no bootup delay). You need to be careful about specs for function generators as there can be some glaring got-yas. Many have a published speed of let's say 30Mhz, but this is for sinewaves only, square waves may be only 15Mhz. Or the voltage range is for PP sinewave but only if there is no DC offset voltage. Or the voltage spec is for a high impedance but only half if into 50 ohms. When choosing a function generator, first look how much speed sine/square, then waveform types available, then for each waveform what voltage/offset you can actually get into a 50 ohm load. If you are not happy with the output at 50 ohms, you are bound to be disappointed down the road. Lots of people buy programmable AFGs (some with lots of memory) but never actually program them. Lots of wasted money there.

Next looking at general signal sources for other uses. I do a little bit of work with AM/FM receivers, repair and alignment. I found a really good deal on a used Kenwood AM/FM Stereo signal generator. Check out the frequency range as many will cover from the bottom of the ham bands to the top of the FM band. Lots of vendors have made these so look for an inexpensive used one if you play in this area.

If you need a frequency standard, look into one of the low cost units made from a GPS disciplined oven oscillator. Not to expensive and would be a good future buy if timing accuracy becomes important. You can use it for calibrating your scopes and frequency counters, or as a permanent clock into either device for much higher accuracy. A bit of a luxury device but useful to calibrate anything used you buy. 

Regards

[ehobby]

Porter,
Fluke 8050A is great and was my goto DMM for about 20 years till I got a couple of Fluke 45s. I still have a couple of 8050As, battery and AC models. I have six or seven Fluke 80xx meters and all work well and stay in cal for decades. I even built one of the simple transistor beta fixtures for the 8050A long ago and it still works.

Regards

[geneonline]

Wow, I didn't expect great advice to keep being added! With every comment and recommendation I've been looking up teardowns, product specifications, prices new and use, and getting to have a better understanding what is available! This field certainly has many wonderful measuring tools and have been around for awhile with a lot to choose from!

I'll post some of the things I've narrowed down and would love to hear your opinions! Last few days, spent a lot of time looking at all of the suggestions regarding DMM's, oscilloscopes, WFG, PSUs, logic analyzers, RF/vector stuff, how to modify and hack many on them, hot air/soldering stations, kits, leads and some other useful tools at hand. The list can go for a long time!

Bedazzled shiny eye'd shopper of yesterday is trying to scrutinizing the finer print and find more usefulness. For the next year, I generally will be needing only rudimentary measuring devices and need to be able to inject simple signals into circuits I create or break down something and understand all the different gates/logic or behavior. Following year will prob begin another splurge for more advanced systems which will enter more of the specialized territory.  After spending time with people who's current project is to fully build self piloting rovers with object recondition, tracking, and navigation around a room. Just a lot of hands on work proto typing, soldering, and de bugging. With that being said, here is my list:

For a simple all in one solution temporarily, I will settle with the SIGLENT SDS2104X Plus. Even though half of me is saying to get the smaller, sds1000 series. The reason for 2K is the UI experience, screen, resolution, cross functionality, plotting, basic analyzing, waveform gen. Understanding it has many short comings by not being exceptionally great at those areas, I won't need to invest more into those individual devices for a while. Only may run to a few specific use cases which will still have down sides for other equipment at the current budget. I do need this sooner than later for my project due next month . I'm not going used or older on this due to just wanting a clean interface, ease of use with a pc, recording video, streaming data, and logging work I do to bring back and forth to class to share with other classmates. The crazy amount of programmability for each thing will keep me busy. Easy access for replacement, warranty, and many people already on the platform.  Needing warranty or the ability to just simply getting a refund for a different unit if I run into problems over the next few years. (sds1000 can do similar if i add a simple WFG. would be cheaper too). It works, will be good during college, and if it doesn't turn out well, I'm sure somebody would be willing to buy it for a good price will all the extra features unlocked, courtesy of the forum . A good  Tek, Rohde and Schwarz, keysight, or lecroy would take a lot more time to land a deal than I current have. Once I make a few more connections, travel a little bit, have more experience in what I really want during intern rotations in two years,  I may land on a great find when around businesses with that kind of gear.

I will hold off a little longer on some of the more advanced wave form generators that are able to sync with external sources more accurately when I actually NEED it. I will still have $ saved for when something pops on the market during the time. The school has all that crazy national lab level stuff for when it counts. Will run the sensitive experiments there, or log the files and bring it home to use with one built-in Siglent's. When I out grow that the oscilloscope's built in one, hopefully prices drop on a lot of gear by then. I also don't really believe I need that kind of high frequency till we begin communications. Any signal gen I can find sub-500$ new doesn't seem to cut the cake. Would be a duplicated purchase later on. Need to still spend a little more time reading about the more advanced uses and environments for that level of specification. A few pointed out I could ending up needing two separate, one for digital and analog .

DMM: I'm not struggling for a DMM atm. Looking at options between 5-1/2 and 6-1/2 read outs. I feel like this is the least stressful area to find a reliable and trusty measurement. There is a lot of fluke, dk precision, tek, and many other companies in abundance while not epically expensive.

I still have many mixed feelings concerning the PSU. I stopped the previous order of the Rigol 832. I do like the idea of having a 3 channel, programmable, extra bells and whistles, but seeing additional voltage spikes even on new units and other brands, while some having the following max over volt protections being slow in software, or none all together, loud, low, high noise, inaccurate readings, bad design not powerful enough. There's always something wrong with everything. I am considering the KORAD KA3005P to start with for now. It has some major flaws, some have been pointed out and fixed over the years, but its cheap, easy to mod, decent and clean power with the ability to hooked up to a pc for scripts and has more than enough power for anything I'll be working on. I'm fine with something that is stable as I'll be stepping down the voltage and amps with resistors before adding into my circuits and monitoring true reading on the board level with my DMM to avoid disasters. Plus all the professors and tutors are expecting us to fry our projects a few times to learn the hard way. They do say, "Always order multiple parts, use IC sockets, and git gud".   Another item to spend a little more time for the right bargain. Expecting modern decent all-rounder felt to good to be true. Korad is a little ugly so I'm also ok if someone can recommend a reliable programmable linear psu for around $300 or less that will feel like it was money well spent and everyone agrees on. I really changed my tune about this for those reasons and I wanted to use that money for the next few items.


Hot Airflow Station: Quick 861DW. A few really good choices for a little less and more. I found an avg priced unit, extra bent nozzle, and its a solid product that will work great. Fast free shipping/returns if I get a bad unit. This is a little bit of a luxury, but I think this will become a work horse hopefully lasting a long time. Attn looked solid, but not many vendors are close by. Don't want to go for a knock off of another well known brand. Want less chance of a headache with decent steady heat. I'm curious how my lights will flicker . Seeing the reasoning being due to pulses being different from similar heaters making it other electronics act weird. If this is a problem when it arrives, I'll send it back.

Soldering station: either Pace's 'ADS200 AccuDrive® Production Soldering Station with TD-200 Tip-Heater Cartridge Iron & Instant SetBack Tool Stand' or Hakkos 'FX951'. Pace Has a great selection of tips in TD-200 standard and ultra-performance blue series tips.  A little pricer for the machine, but as mentioned earlier in the forum, close working distance, fine pen like soldering iron grip. Similar or better pricing for certain tips, and higher wattage than Hakko. Minor things as Hakko has a lot going for it as well. Hakko has great performance and very respectable heat up time on the FX951.  Very close in price when I add up all the extra color grips for tips on Hakko to change out quickly. That plastic blue color though   . I think I could confidently pick either and have a blast when melting lead. Accessories for Pace's professional line are robust too. I really liked the Pace's ST115 Digital Desoldering Station with SX-100 Sodr-X-Tractor. Awesome video's people using that. I would love that in the future. Not practical as I don't have to do that much precision work any year soon. Maybe  HAKKO FR301-03/P in a year or two if I need to. I am buying a hand held 'solder vacuum pump' that I can bring back and forth. Prob should learn the manual tricks first before getting spoiled on automation.

Macal/JBL was appealing, but too much  $$ and the tips are very expensive for each one. I would need to take a few different brands for a run to really know the difference. A lot of knock offs, good brands, and everything in between. Could spend days on this, but another item I need by next week.

Picked out are an assortment of base tip choices: a conical, curved conical, chisel, and knife to begin with. I already picked out the standard tips for both Pace and Hakko. Curious to know about the performance difference with Pace's ultra-performance line is about. Not many head to head pace vs hakko on the web to make a informed decision from.

I did like J-link's segger's tracer and saleae's pc logic analyzer. Will pick something reasonable later when that is more important. Really like what Sigrok was doing for an easy entry in and inexpensive DIY solutions.

Other nitche area's will be revisited at a later date. I will be using this wonderful forum from now on!

That is the update where I'm at now. Gotta finish adding a few 7-segment displays and find a debouncer part number for a few switches in a binary/digital clock design due tm. Will be lurking and responding when I can.

[pope]

Great advices here 

[kcbrown]

Which situations cause it to lag? Is it a lag or just doesnt work at all? For what it can do, I completely ok with a little bit of slowness at times when doing hard tasks.

After 14  or so Red Bulls,  some people--the ones that text at 2000 thumbstrokes per minute--blow a gasket if their chosen device of the moment doesn't properly buffer and respond instantly to the 700 tasks they've jammed into it.  Those are the people that complain about 'slow' or 'laggy' UIs. 

While I do type at 100 words a minute (though not on a phone.  I hate typing on a phone.  I make too many mistakes and it's maddening), I don't have a problem with somewhat slow UIs.

But the problem I was having with the UI on the Siglent was much worse than that.  The problem I was having is that it would ignore my inputs.

Well, this thread prompted me to take action.  See, the issue is that what I was primarily using to gauge responsiveness to the front panel was the timebase setting.  And the issue I was having is that I'd turn the timebase knob and it would only acknowledge some of the "clicks".  If I moved it only one click, it was random whether or not it would respond to that.  This, of course, was maddening.   The fact that it's a digital encoder, worked only some of the time, and where it worked didn't seem to depend on the rotational position of the knob led me to believe that the issue had to be the operating system, and that everyone else just ignored it.

But it occurred to me, finally, that it couldn't be this bad for most others, because most other people praise the UI as being reasonably responsive.

So I had two choices: send the unit to Siglent for warranty repair and wait perhaps months, or replace the encoder myself, and take advantage of the opportunity to replace the multifunction knob with a detented encoder.  I chose the latter.

Turns out that it was indeed the encoder after all (the solder joints all looked fine).  The UI (the timebase in particular) is now much better.

But, naturally, nothing I do ever works completely right the first time.  In this case, it appears Siglent used encoders that generate output that is the reverse of that which normal encoders generate.  I used the same encoders for both the timebase (and the volts/div) as well as for the trigger position and the multifunction knob.  The replacements work properly for the trigger position and the multifunction knob.  They work in reverse for the timebase and the volts/div setting.  The difference between those two groups is that the timebase and volts/div were already detented encoders, and those apparently encoded in reverse of what the smooth encoders do.  Now they all encode in the same way, resulting in the timebase and volts/div working backwards.

Sigh.  I just can't ever win completely.   

But the good news is that the front panel now works properly, though it previously got somewhat sluggish under the right circumstances (when the scope is doing a lot of processing, like when you've got an FFT going, along with a large capture buffer and other measurements).  With my fixed encoders in place, I'll have to gain some experience with the scope to see if the other responsiveness issues I'd occasionally seen are gone.


I guess I'll have to go back to my comments where I complained about the responsiveness of the scope and update them to reflect this latest development.  But note that I had occasionally managed to get the scope into a state where it would ignore the front panel buttons themselves (e.g., the run/stop button).  It'll be interesting to see if my surgery has somehow fixed that (can't see how it would, but you never know).


I'm halfway tempted to get encoders of the same kind that I used (can't remember the brand right now but they're good ones) but which encode in reverse, open the scope up, and replace the timebase and volts/div encoders with those.  But disassembling the scope enough to remove the encoder board and, especially, disconnecting and reconnecting the encoder board's ribbon cables, was a real pain that I'd rather not repeat if I can help it.

EDIT: Yeah, I could simply cross-connect the A and B lines on the two encoders by cutting the leads and soldering wires between the (now truncated) terminals and the pads on the board.  But that's a kludge, and I tend to prefer something a bit more professional.   But I might have no choice.  I'm not having any luck finding an encoder that matches what Siglent seems to be using.     Might be better just to live with this.  In a way, having them reversed "makes sense".  We usually associate clockwise rotation with an increase in something, and counterclockwise with a decrease.  An increase in the amount of time per division, and similarly an increase in volts per division, is what the current setup gets me.  It operates opposite of what most scopes do, but it does make a certain kind of sense.  That said, I'd prefer that it work the way it was designed to.  Sigh...

[geneonline]

"...The problem I was having is that it would ignore my inputs..."
"timebase knob and it would only acknowledge some of the "clicks"."
But it occurred to me, finally, that it couldn't be this bad for most others, because most other people praise the UI as being reasonably responsive.
"...the multifunction knob with a detented encoder.."
"...Turns out that it was indeed the encoder after all (the solder joints all looked fine).  The UI (the timebase in particular) is now much better"
"Now they all encode in the same way, resulting in the timebase and volts/div working backwards..."
"...the good news is that the front panel now works properly..."
"...note that I had occasionally managed to get the scope into a state where it would ignore the front panel buttons themselves (e.g., the run/stop button)..."

"I'm halfway tempted to get encoders of the same kind that I used (can't remember the brand right now but they're good ones) but which encode in reverse, open the scope up, and replace the timebase and volts/div encoders with those.  But disassembling the scope enough to remove the encoder board and, especially, disconnecting and reconnecting the encoder board's ribbon cables, was a real pain that I'd rather not repeat if I can help it."

Thank you for pointing this out on the unit! I have seen other Siglent devices in videos showing knobs not correctly registering minute details consistently. This is the first I'm really hearing about it on a product that is a step up in the price line up. I was wishfully hopeful of a flawless unit with many ranting and raving. Almost second guessing, but there is problems with the other brands too, if not more cumbersome. Will need to roll this lottery for how mine will turn out. 

How was the process swapping the encoders? I just finished browsing the service manual for disassembly. A little tedious for sure when buying a brand new and potential voiding warranty. Hoping this sore spot has been address with production of
 units being out for a bit. Seen some improvements have been made with firmware updates, no idea if it would help here as I don't have the device yet to review. I'll prob dig into threads about swapping them later when I begin worrying before bed. Looks like I'll be watching Dave's tear down on this for the n-th time for this process.

Your explanation was clear detailing what to test and something to potentially expect in the future.  I'm very appreciative.

All other aspects of the oscilloscope work well during testing and using for you?

Would you be able to speak in detail how your experiences were in regard if other Siglent devices, if you own, have the a similar issue?

[geneonline]

Just found a post about something similar to which I was looking for...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/

[kcbrown]

Thank you for pointing this out on the unit! I have seen other Siglent devices in videos showing knobs not correctly registering minute details consistently. This is the first I'm really hearing about it on a product that is a step up in the price line up. I was wishfully hopeful of a flawless unit with many ranting and raving. Almost second guessing, but there is problems with the other brands too, if not more cumbersome. Will need to roll this lottery for how mine will turn out. 

The scope itself is good enough that it's worth buying.  If my experience with the encoders in this model was common then I'd have expected to see a lot more on it.  So I think you'll be safe in buying it.

How was the process swapping the encoders?

The main issue was with disconnecting and reconnecting the ribbon cables that connect to the encoder board, a necessity because removal of the encoder board is a prerequisite of getting to the backside of it to desolder the offending encoders.  There are two of these ribbon cables, one on the side of the encoder board and one on the top, and both are connected to the underside of the encoder board. 

The ribbon on the top goes through a slot in the plate the motherboard attaches to (and which provides structure that the motherboard, the encoder board, and the display all attach to) and attaches to the primary side of the motherboard.  This has to be disconnected first.  There is very little room to work with here (well, relative to my clumsy fingers, at any rate), because the position of the connector on the motherboard is very close to the lip of the plate (this makes reattaching the cable even more difficult than removing it).  There is tape that is used to secure the ribbon in place, and you have to lift that first before you can unlatch the connector and remove the ribbon. 

For the cable on the side, the display is in the way and has to be moved out of the way, and there are a number of connections to the display, enough that it's better to just lay the display upside down, pivoting from its bottom where its main ribbon connector is.  Once the display is out of the way, removing the side ribbon from the encoder board isn't really a problem.  It, too, is secured with tape, which of course has to be lifted before the connector's latch can be disengaged.  I tried to do this without moving the display, and managed to succeed, but it would have been a lot easier if I had moved the display as I described.  I ended up having to move the display in order to reconnect this ribbon cable.

I just finished browsing the service manual for disassembly. A little tedious for sure when buying a brand new and potential voiding warranty. Hoping this sore spot has been address with production of units being out for a bit. Seen some improvements have been made with firmware updates, no idea if it would help here as I don't have the device yet to review.

I'm on the latest version of the firmware.  Believe me, my issue was most certainly a hardware issue.  Because of that, I have to throw my prior experience with the front panel out the window.  It's just not valid to presume that the issues are still present when this particular hardware issue might have been causing problems for the entire front panel, even if I can't think of a way that it could that was consistent with my overall experience (argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy, after all.  ).

I'll prob dig into threads about swapping them later when I begin worrying before bed. Looks like I'll be watching Dave's tear down on this for the n-th time for this process.

Dave's teardown annoyingly skips over the majority of the disassembly process, and he never disassembled it to the point of getting at the encoder board.  Getting to the encoder board requires removal of the front bezel assembly, which requires removal of the sticker that shows the colors of the inputs and other information.  There are three screws behind that sticker.  Removing this without damaging it required the use of a heat gun (on low setting: 100 degC for mine, as low as it would go) and a plastic razor blade. 

I haven't put the sticker back yet, and am interested in any suggestions as to an adhesive that is strong enough to keep the sticker in place but weak enough to make removal of the sticker easy enough that it won't be damaged by the forces involved.  Something like the adhesive used on painter's tape.  Any ideas?

As an alternative, I'm thinking of punching holes in the sticker where the screws are, but this will remove some of the printed text, so I'm reluctant to do that (and besides, it'll compromise the appearance, which isn't the end of the world, but is still a downside).

Your explanation was clear detailing what to test and something to potentially expect in the future.  I'm very appreciative.

My pleasure.   

All other aspects of the oscilloscope work well during testing and using for you?

Pretty much.  There are a few quirks with the decoding, for instance: it'll only decode what's present on the screen, even if what's on the screen is only a subset of what was captured.  The scope itself uses a "what you see is all you get" approach to capture.  There's lots of threads on this, but the upshot is that the screen boundaries define the time boundaries of the capture, making it trivial to know exactly what you're going to get in the capture.  This tends to throw off some people, who expect the scope to use the entirety of memory for that single capture No Matter What.  You can get this scope to use the entirety of memory by increasing the time per division until the amount of memory shown in the timebase box stops increasing (of course, this presumes you've told the scope that the maximum amount of memory it should use for a capture is the amount of memory it actually has, otherwise it'll use the remaining memory to retain prior captures).  This is where zoom mode comes into its own.  You put the entire capture on the main screen, and use the zoom mode screen to show the portion of the capture that you're interested in.

There are other little annoyances.  For instance, if you've got the table of decoded values showing, you cannot use it to go to the portion of the capture that contains the value you've selected. 

But overall, the scope is really awesome.

Would you be able to speak in detail how your experiences were in regard if other Siglent devices, if you own, have the a similar issue?

I have an SDS-1204X-E as well.  It doesn't have the encoder issue we're talking about here (nothing else I have does, not like that).  It does have a problem with the UI locking up solid on me if I leave it on for really extended periods of time (many weeks).  This is a bug in the firmware for sure.  I know this because I sent my scope in to have it checked out, they weren't really able to reproduce the issue consistently enough to determine a root cause (no surprise, given the amount of time it takes to see the issue), they sent me a replacement (different hardware version and everything), and the replacement turns out to have the very same issue.  The UI is recoverable if you're able to connect to the scope over the network when it gets into this state.  Otherwise you have to forcibly power the scope off (hold the power button down like you would a laptop) and power it on again.

My SDS-2104X+ doesn't have that problem.  I've left it on continuously and it always responds when I do something (encoder issues notwithstanding) even after weeks of inactivity.

--

Since I own both the SDS-2104X+ and the SDS-1204X-E and have experience with both, I can tell you from experience that the SDS-2104X+ is easily worth the price of admission if you can stretch for it.  Its implementation of zoom mode by itself is worth the price of admission: it's done properly in the SDS-2104X+.  Even the mask test is capable of being used in zoom mode.  It makes up for all (or nearly all.  There may be something I'm overlooking) of the shortcomings of the "what you see is all you get" capture approach that Siglent (and, apparently, LeCroy) uses.

[tautech]

KCB
These 3M ATG700 adhesive transfer guns would be my first choice for re-sticking labels:
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_LB/p/d/v000076379/

This one from Scotch could be useful too:
https://www.scotchbrand.com/3M/en_US/scotch-brand/products/catalog/~/Scotch-Adhesive-Dot-Roller/?N=4335+3294529207+3294603441&rt=rud

[kcbrown]

KCB
These 3M ATG700 adhesive transfer guns would be my first choice for re-sticking labels:
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_LB/p/d/v000076379/

This one from Scotch could be useful too:
https://www.scotchbrand.com/3M/en_US/scotch-brand/products/catalog/~/Scotch-Adhesive-Dot-Roller/?N=4335+3294529207+3294603441&rt=rud

How strong is the adhesive in those?  Remember that the goal is to make it possible to peel the sticker off of the scope by hand without damaging it, so as to make it relatively easy to remove the front plastic panel if that should prove necessary.

[tautech]

KCB
These 3M ATG700 adhesive transfer guns would be my first choice for re-sticking labels:
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_LB/p/d/v000076379/

This one from Scotch could be useful too:
https://www.scotchbrand.com/3M/en_US/scotch-brand/products/catalog/~/Scotch-Adhesive-Dot-Roller/?N=4335+3294529207+3294603441&rt=rud

How strong is the adhesive in those?  Remember that the goal is to make it possible to peel the sticker off of the scope by hand without damaging it, so as to make it relatively easy to remove the front plastic panel if that should prove necessary.

Pretty strong but it depends on the surface substrate how well they hold together.
The large dispenser gun we stick light card nonglossy business cards to catalogues with a single 20mm strip of glue and they won't come off without one or the other tearing or delaminating.
Years ago I used it to stick a 1/4" glass pull tab to a sliding glass panel and it stayed put and worked great whereas a previous one stuck down with epoxy stressed the glass and it broke.

Flexy vinyl label to thermoplastic housing I would have no hesitation like for X+ however I do know you can get the sticker in question from Siglent NA as member mwyatt needed one for his X+ when it had an accident with liquids and he had to fully strip and wash it to recover it.

[geneonline]

How was the process swapping the encoders?

The main issue was with disconnecting and reconnecting the ribbon cables that connect to the encoder board, a necessity because removal of the encoder board is a prerequisite of getting to the backside of it to desolder the offending encoders.  There are two of these ribbon cables, one on the side of the encoder board and one on the top, and both are connected to the underside of the encoder board. 

The ribbon on the top goes through a slot in the plate the motherboard attaches to (and which provides structure that the motherboard, the encoder board, and the display all attach to) and attaches to the primary side of the motherboard.  This has to be disconnected first.  There is very little room to work with here (well, relative to my clumsy fingers, at any rate), because the position of the connector on the motherboard is very close to the lip of the plate (this makes reattaching the cable even more difficult than removing it).  There is tape that is used to secure the ribbon in place, and you have to lift that first before you can unlatch the connector and remove the ribbon. 

For the cable on the side, the display is in the way and has to be moved out of the way, and there are a number of connections to the display, enough that it's better to just lay the display upside down, pivoting from its bottom where its main ribbon connector is.  Once the display is out of the way, removing the side ribbon from the encoder board isn't really a problem.  It, too, is secured with tape, which of course has to be lifted before the connector's latch can be disengaged.  I tried to do this without moving the display, and managed to succeed, but it would have been a lot easier if I had moved the display as I described.  I ended up having to move the display in order to reconnect this ribbon cable."


"I'm on the latest version of the firmware.  Believe me, my issue was most certainly a hardware issue.  Because of that, I have to throw my prior experience with the front panel out the window.  It's just not valid to presume that the issues are still present when this particular hardware issue might have been causing problems for the entire front panel, even if I can't think of a way that it could that was consistent with my overall experience (argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy, after all.  ).

Dave's teardown annoyingly skips over the majority of the disassembly process, and he never disassembled it to the point of getting at the encoder board.  Getting to the encoder board requires removal of the front bezel assembly, which requires removal of the sticker that shows the colors of the inputs and other information.  There are three screws behind that sticker.  Removing this without damaging it required the use of a heat gun (on low setting: 100 degC for mine, as low as it would go) and a plastic razor blade. 

I will be following these instructions in detail if I ever need to open it up once the scope is out of warranty. Saw a few posts that Siglent takes pretty good care fixing somethings. Hopefully I don't have a similar annoyances plaguing when mine shows up.

Pretty much.  There are a few quirks with the decoding, for instance: it'll only decode what's present on the screen, even if what's on the screen is only a subset of what was captured.  The scope itself uses a "what you see is all you get" approach to capture.  There's lots of threads on this, but the upshot is that the screen boundaries define the time boundaries of the capture, making it trivial to know exactly what you're going to get in the capture.  This tends to throw off some people, who expect the scope to use the entirety of memory for that single capture No Matter What.  You can get this scope to use the entirety of memory by increasing the time per division until the amount of memory shown in the timebase box stops increasing (of course, this presumes you've told the scope that the maximum amount of memory it should use for a capture is the amount of memory it actually has, otherwise it'll use the remaining memory to retain prior captures).  This is where zoom mode comes into its own.  You put the entire capture on the main screen, and use the zoom mode screen to show the portion of the capture that you're interested in.

There are other little annoyances.  For instance, if you've got the table of decoded values showing, you cannot use it to go to the portion of the capture that contains the value you've selected. 

But overall, the scope is really awesome.

Would you be able to speak in detail how your experiences were in regard if other Siglent devices, if you own, have the a similar issue?

I have an SDS-1204X-E as well.  It doesn't have the encoder issue we're talking about here (nothing else I have does, not like that).  It does have a problem with the UI locking up solid on me if I leave it on for really extended periods of time (many weeks).  This is a bug in the firmware for sure.  I know this because I sent my scope in to have it checked out, they weren't really able to reproduce the issue consistently enough to determine a root cause (no surprise, given the amount of time it takes to see the issue), they sent me a replacement (different hardware version and everything), and the replacement turns out to have the very same issue.  The UI is recoverable if you're able to connect to the scope over the network when it gets into this state.  Otherwise you have to forcibly power the scope off (hold the power button down like you would a laptop) and power it on again.

My SDS-2104X+ doesn't have that problem.  I've left it on continuously and it always responds when I do something (encoder issues notwithstanding) even after weeks of inactivity.

Since I own both the SDS-2104X+ and the SDS-1204X-E and have experience with both, I can tell you from experience that the SDS-2104X+ is easily worth the price of admission if you can stretch for it.  Its implementation of zoom mode by itself is worth the price of admission: it's done properly in the SDS-2104X+.  Even the mask test is capable of being used in zoom mode.  It makes up for all (or nearly all.  There may be something I'm overlooking) of the shortcomings of the "what you see is all you get" capture approach that Siglent (and, apparently, LeCroy) uses.

I officially ordered the SDS-2104X+! I was heavily second guessing between the two models you've mentioned. This was just the little push I needed to stop debating. The SDS-1204x-e is one heck of a bang for buck in a small box. Some of the other deciding factors were in a lot of the screen shots of the sds1k line. It just didnt have the same clean lay out of the SDS2K and some menu's would over lap onto your graphs. I was unsure if the resolution would have been the same interfacing through a pc. Honestly, I wasn't feeling too confident seeing all the menus inside of more menus and info readily inaccessible. I would possible fall into a routine and continually never find functions being buried under menu selections. I will still have that problem, but won't feel as cramped on screen. If everything continues to work as intended, I will keep this for a very long time where ever I go. Glad I won't feel that haunting question" I wish I should have gotten the next model up".

KCB
These 3M ATG700 adhesive transfer guns would be my first choice for re-sticking labels:
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_LB/p/d/v000076379/

This one from Scotch could be useful too:
https://www.scotchbrand.com/3M/en_US/scotch-brand/products/catalog/~/Scotch-Adhesive-Dot-Roller/?N=4335+3294529207+3294603441&rt=rud

These look great and would have been better than any suggestions I would could up with. I was just thinking hitting with a little glue if the labels were relatively straight.

__________________

The most cumbersome selection is now out of the way. lol such a relief. I have spent way more than I should wrestling over buying decisions when it comes to things I want to just work when it should for a long time.


My last lingering enigma is the which quirks of a PSU to live with. I get its not a big deal and will have a PSU hording problem like most in the forum in the future.  Please put me out of my misery and help make the last selection.

Debating between these few choices:

• Keithley 2231A-30-3 for $600 total(used ebay).
• Instek GPP-4323 (LAN) $700
• Rigol DP832 $500

or something else?

Trying to keep budget around 500$ for the PSU as I already spent my 2k budget with my other items. Something too good to pass up would kinda have me stretch my budget for one. Honestly need to read about some of the older legendary equipment to know what I'm looking for on ebay.

Min specs needed:
-3 channels
-ability to hit 5a with monitoring and protecting from some source
-low noise
-programmable
-lan or usb connect to pc
-ability to calibrate at home and adjust the display output
-Timer, can see output voltage and amps for channels at all times
-UI doesn't lock up
-remote sense would be nice, but I know that only premium options


Pretty much a lot ticks the boxes. Siglent SPD3303X-E around $400 is another barging buy. Just something about the off-set binding posts, knob, and the 3rd channel switch just urks me for some reason. Prob a lot nicer in person but not sure and would like a little more control over the 3rd channel. With those savings I could buy a very cheap 60v/5A single channel supply or a proper electronic load for a little more that the Instek thats has its own very weird problems, low amps on a few channels, and a limited load.   

I'm gonna spend the next hour browsing for a deal that checks the boxes. I've exhausted my options looking at new PSU's. Prob flip a coin by the end of the night at this rate. Any more time debating, my semester will be over by the time it arrives and me overthinking this. Its just a PSU at the end of the day. lol

[tautech]

geneonline
You will love the 2kX+ as many others here do and I highly recommend you get a mouse for it despite it having a touch display and physical controls a mouse speeds usage and provide a better all-round experience with all these recent Siglent models.
Latest SDS6000A scopes are shipped with a wireless mouse for exactly the same reasons and as they have a 12" display it saves lots of time rather than chase around the display with a finger.

SPD3303X-E are certainly not your usual PSU design however we sell a good few each year and have little problem with them. That their 3 channels are all properly isolated from one another and mains ground allows multiple units to be connected in series to a rated max of 500V from mains GND.

[geneonline]

geneonline
You will love the 2kX+ as many others here do and I highly recommend you get a mouse for it despite it having a touch display and physical controls a mouse speeds usage and provide a better all-round experience with all these recent Siglent models.
Latest SDS6000A scopes are shipped with a wireless mouse for exactly the same reasons and as they have a 12" display it saves lots of time rather than chase around the display with a finger.

Great tip! There is a good number of peripherals laying around for use.  Looking forward to unboxing and exploring everything it can do! I'll be sufficiently busy with that for quiet a while.

SPD3303X-E are certainly not your usual PSU design however we sell a good few each year and have little problem with them. That their 3 channels are all properly isolated from one another and mains ground allows multiple units to be connected in series to a rated max of 500V from mains GND.

Is there a way to have all devices linked/controlled in a single app? Example, logging, screen recording, and controlling in one window? Would like to synchronize tests  referencing back at a given time. Does every device needs their own software? Is it preferable to connect with a network switch or usb in your experience?

[kcbrown]

Just a followup on the encoder thing.  I verified directly that the encoders Siglent is using for the vertical and horizontal scaling are indeed reversed in their outputs from the standard.

Here's the encoders I'm using: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/652-PEC12R-4220F-S24

And here's the datasheet for it: https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/54/PEC12R-777795.pdf

Note that the pinout shows, with the 3 quadrature output pins (A, common, and B) at the bottom, and when viewed from above, A on the left, common on center, and B on the right.

With common grounded and A and B connected through pull-up resistors to power, the output of A will lead the output of B when turned clockwise, and will lag when turned counterclockwise.

The encoder Siglent is using generates output that is the reverse: A will lag B when turned clockwise, and will lead B when turned counterclockwise.  In essence, this means that Siglent's encoders have B on the left and A on the right, when the encoder is viewed as described above.

Why in the world Siglent would ever use encoders that have reversed signal pins is quite beyond me.  I have no idea how to find good replacements for them.  The parametric search Mouser provides doesn't even give an option to search for such a thing, and neither does DigiKey.

The encoders Siglent is using seem to be made by LJV: https://www.ibselectronics.com/ibsstore/datasheet/4425676.pdf.  In looking at them and feeling them in comparison with the Bourns encoders, they seem to be rather high quality, with a nice feel to them overall.

The datasheet shows nothing about the relative phase of the encoded signals.   The encoders appear to be something like the RE1103XC1-H01 (based on the dimensions, "X" is going to be "F", for 7mm).  The datasheet doesn't describe how to be more specific than that.  It's a 20-position encoder.

Obviously I had to hook the encoders up to a scope with the appropriate pull-up resistors (common went to ground) in order to see the output of the signals they would generate (the irony of using my SDS-2104X+ to view the signals generated by the Siglent encoders that were previously installed in that very scope is not lost on me).  I performed this exercise for the purpose of comparing how the phases worked in the Siglent encoders compared with the Bourns encoders I replaced them with, and found the above.  But here's the interesting thing: I can't find anything wrong with these encoders.

Whatever was going on with my scope before, it was not the fault of the encoders.  That implies either a broken solder joint that I somehow missed, or the connections between the encoder board and the rest of the scope were somehow intermittent.

That, of course, means that I can solve the directionality issue by putting the original encoders back into service.  That's likely what I'll do.

Meanwhile, I'm halfway tempted to replace the remaining two smooth encoders with these Bourns detented encoders, because it's really nice to be able to move the encoder with precision, and to easily go from the current value to the next value definitively.  But it's also nice to be able to move the horizontal and vertical positions fluidly, and that kind of precision isn't quite as useful for those as it is for the trigger position (or for pretty much anything controlled by the multifunction knob).


Regardless of what I end up doing, this wound up being a worthwhile, though frustrating, exercise.

[geneonline]

Just a followup on the encoder thing.  I verified directly that the encoders Siglent is using for the vertical and horizontal scaling are indeed reversed in their outputs from the standard.

Here's the encoders I'm using: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/652-PEC12R-4220F-S24

And here's the datasheet for it: https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/54/PEC12R-777795.pdf

Note that the pinout shows, with the 3 quadrature output pins (A, common, and B) at the bottom, and when viewed from above, A on the left, common on center, and B on the right.

With common grounded and A and B connected through pull-up resistors to power, the output of A will lead the output of B when turned clockwise, and will lag when turned counterclockwise.

The encoder Siglent is using generates output that is the reverse: A will lag B when turned clockwise, and will lead B when turned counterclockwise.  In essence, this means that Siglent's encoders have B on the left and A on the right, when the encoder is viewed as described above.

Why in the world Siglent would ever use encoders that have reversed signal pins is quite beyond me.  I have no idea how to find good replacements for them.  The parametric search Mouser provides doesn't even give an option to search for such a thing, and neither does DigiKey.

The encoders Siglent is using seem to be made by LJV: https://www.ibselectronics.com/ibsstore/datasheet/4425676.pdf.  In looking at them and feeling them in comparison with the Bourns encoders, they seem to be rather high quality, with a nice feel to them overall.

The datasheet shows nothing about the relative phase of the encoded signals.   The encoders appear to be something like the RE1103XC1-H01 (based on the dimensions, "X" is going to be "F", for 7mm).  The datasheet doesn't describe how to be more specific than that.  It's a 20-position encoder.

Obviously I had to hook the encoders up to a scope with the appropriate pull-up resistors (common went to ground) in order to see the output of the signals they would generate.  I performed this exercise for the purpose of comparing how the phases worked in the Siglent encoders compared with the Bourns encoders I replaced them with, and found the above.  But here's the interesting thing: I can't find anything wrong with these encoders.

Whatever was going on with my scope before, it was not the fault of the encoders.  That implies either a broken solder joint that I somehow missed, or the connections between the encoder board and the rest of the scope were somehow intermittent.

That, of course, means that I can solve the directionality issue by putting the original encoders back into service.  That's likely what I'll do.

Meanwhile, I'm halfway tempted to replace the remaining two smooth encoders with these Bourns detented encoders, because it's really nice to be able to move the encoder with precision, and to easily go from the current value to the next value definitively.  But it's also nice to be able to move the horizontal and vertical positions fluidly, and that kind of precision isn't quite as useful for those as it is for the trigger position (or for pretty much anything controlled by the multifunction knob).

Regardless of what I end up doing, this wound up being a worthwhile, though frustrating, exercise.

This is a thorough implementation of patience tracking the information and specification. Taking the oscilloscope apart only later to discover that putting back together was all it needed . If swapping the encoders back, then changing the remaining refines use, that feeling of adjustments should be oddly satisfying with lingering love/hate. .  When and if you do this procedure, I would love to see your findings from the end result! I would be tempted to make the same modifications with the encoders you linked if they perform great in the respective adjustment purposes.

While you have the oscilloscope apart, is there a safe way to test the encoders on the board before fully assembling again? If it's a reverse signal between pins A/B in regard to Bourns, would the timing be sufficient if you crossed the lines? ie.  bend pins away from board to solder a wire to the correct path? If that doesnt give enough stability, breaking the trace further up the board and then crossing the wires if possible? Either of those options are sketchy ideas at best and more not truly being feasible.

Which probes did you use for checking the logic of the encoders? Was it on the sds1204x-e? Manufactured probes or home made? I'm deciding on getting a few general purpose kits to be able to make some myself.

My unit should arrive by the of end new week. There will be thorough use of the machine while I'm within the first month of purchase!

Not on the same level of frustration you are experiences with your scope, I respect not settling till its the way you want. Testing keycaps and the switches for peripherals, cycling through a dozen to find the most natural for many days  . I do love a good tactile/haptic feedback. Hand full of things around the house will have your lesson applied when attempting trouble shooting procedures. checking solder joints and signal integrity a few times before removing things will be first on the list.

[tautech]

SPD3303X-E are certainly not your usual PSU design however we sell a good few each year and have little problem with them. That their 3 channels are all properly isolated from one another and mains ground allows multiple units to be connected in series to a rated max of 500V from mains GND.

Is there a way to have all devices linked/controlled in a single app? Example, logging, screen recording, and controlling in one window? Would like to synchronize tests  referencing back at a given time. Does every device needs their own software? Is it preferable to connect with a network switch or usb in your experience?

I prefer LAN as I have a switch on the bench whereas others might have a USB hub I don't.

The scope has a webserver for remote control with a mouse and also a SCPI command panel and you can also use the EasyScopeX SW from Siglent but there are a couple of other notable SW packages that support most Siglent instruments:
Test Controller
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/program-that-can-log-from-many-multimeters/

LXI tools has a thread here on the blog should you want to engage with the writer:
https://siglentna.com/application-note/lxi-tools/

Check out the various model specific programming guides:
 https://int.siglent.com/download/

[geneonline]

I prefer LAN as I have a switch on the bench whereas others might have a USB hub I don't.

The scope has a webserver for remote control with a mouse and also a SCPI command panel and you can also use the EasyScopeX SW from Siglent but there are a couple of other notable SW packages that support most Siglent instruments:
Test Controller
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/program-that-can-log-from-many-multimeters/

LXI tools has a thread here on the blog should you want to engage with the writer:
https://siglentna.com/application-note/lxi-tools/

Check out the various model specific programming guides:
 https://int.siglent.com/download/

I'm Very interested in learning more about LXI's platform.  Many devices are marked with it! You are an impressive one stop shop for resources. Thanks for taking time out to help and point to correct sources to reference! Time to go down another rabbit hole of information 

[kcbrown]

This is a thorough implementation of patience tracking the information and specification. Taking the oscilloscope apart only later to discover that putting back together was all it needed .

It may be that there was a cracked solder joint.  It certainly seems there was at least an intermittent contact somewhere, and I think most of the problem was limited to the timebase control.

It's possible that the encoder wasn't mounted quite flush with the board, such that pressing on it put stress on one of the solder joints, and that cracked it.   Stranger things have happened.  That said, the legs to the side of the encoders should have provided more than enough stability.  Hard to say what really happened.

If swapping the encoders back, then changing the remaining refines use, that feeling of adjustments should be oddly satisfying with lingering love/hate. . 

In thinking about it, chances are I'll leave the remaining two encoders (that control vertical and horizontal position) alone.  Those, more than any other, are likely to get substantial fast movements on them while not needing the kind of precision you would want elsewhere, and putting detented encoders there would eliminate the ability to move them in that fast manner.

When and if you do this procedure, I would love to see your findings from the end result! I would be tempted to make the same modifications with the encoders you linked if they perform great in the respective adjustment purposes.

Well, so far I very much like having a detented encoder on the trigger, and consider having a detented encoder on the multifunction knob a near-necessity.  I honestly can't fathom why a smooth encoder is used on the multifunction knob.

While you have the oscilloscope apart, is there a safe way to test the encoders on the board before fully assembling again?

Not really.  You have to apply power to something in order to get anything out of the encoders when they're mounted.  I built a simple breadboard setup for testing the desoldered encoders.  It's how I was able to hook them up to my scope in the first place.  The best I could do with them soldered onto the encoder board is to buzz out the connections.

If it's a reverse signal between pins A/B in regard to Bourns, would the timing be sufficient if you crossed the lines? ie.  bend pins away from board to solder a wire to the correct path?

If the original encoders weren't working then this is exactly what I would do.  Swapping A with B is sufficient to yield the desired result.  But it appears that won't be necessary.

The large legs on either side of the encoder are soldered into large holes in the encoder board, and they provide (or should provide) a lot of stability.

Which probes did you use for checking the logic of the encoders?

Just the standard probes that came with the scope.  I used my 2104X+ to test the encoders (which felt a bit ironic, honestly, seeing how the encoders came out of that very scope ).

You can do a lot with the standard probes that come with the scope.

[geneonline]

It is a little funny about hearing about your running the scope on the very same parts that were removed from it! I'll not jump the gun and see how things go. I'm sure it will be manageable.

Just the standard probes that came with the scope.  I used my 2104X+ to test the encoders (which felt a bit ironic, honestly, seeing how the encoders came out of that very scope ).

You can do a lot with the standard probes that come with the scope.

That's great to hear! I was reading posts of people recommending leads running from 5-150! I'll stick with what's in the box. I won't be  doing any thing that would require that level of precision.

quick question, for the best safe practices of ESD and grounding, is it usually better to run a decent gauged wire tied to a metal rod into earth, ground onto the bench PSU, or just a simple grounding through a wall outlet ok? I have a few different silcone mats with grounding clips and wrist straps, but that doesnt do anything till its ran to a acutal ground. Just getting a better sense how to not kill myself when probing. I fail to see many to use safe practices in tear down videos, but I'm guessing many do the tear downs before they ever power it up.

[kcbrown]

You can do a lot with the standard probes that come with the scope.

That's great to hear! I was reading posts of people recommending leads running from 5-150! I'll stick with what's in the box. I won't be  doing any thing that would require that level of precision.

It's not so much a question of precision as it is things like bandwidth and safety.  For safety, see below.

For bandwidth, the thing to remember is that once you get into the many tens of megahertz range and above, you're in territory where probing technique becomes critical.  In particular, you have to minimize your ground path because at those frequencies, everything is an antenna.  That little ground pin that you attach to the probe lead becomes crucial.  And that's at frequencies well below the bandwidth of the passive probes that will come with your scope.

When you're at the point where you need probes that can exceed a couple of hundred megahertz, you'll know it.  Not only will you know it, it may be that your scope requirements at that point will be much greater than what your scope (even when fully hacked) is capable of. 

So yeah, stick with the probes that come with the scope. 

quick question, for the best safe practices of ESD and grounding, is it usually better to run a decent gauged wire tied to a metal rod into earth, ground onto the bench PSU, or just a simple grounding through a wall outlet ok? I have a few different silcone mats with grounding clips and wrist straps, but that doesnt do anything till its ran to a acutal ground. Just getting a better sense how to not kill myself when probing. I fail to see many to use safe practices in tear down videos, but I'm guessing many do the tear downs before they ever power it up.

Everything depends on the quality of the ground at the outlet.  Most reasonably modern homes are constructed such that the ground at the outlet is completely adequate.  Anything that it's not sufficient for is likely to be of such high energy that you don't want it anywhere near your house anyway.

By far the best thing you can do is to get a conductive silicone mat and attach that to ground, and use a ground strap around your wrist.

That leaves probing technique.  The issue with probing isn't really ESD (obviously that's something to be careful about, but you're more likely to damage the DUT by handling it than by probing it), it's with ground loops.  You need to always ensure that the ground attach point of your lead is not connected to a point on the DUT that is at a driven potential relative to earth ground, because your probe's ground attach point is itself already connected to earth ground.  If the test point's local ground reference point is at a driven potential relative to earth ground, then you've got three options:

• attach the grounds of your leads to a ground on the DUT (Device Under Test) that matches earth ground and then use two probes to probe the circuit, one for the signal and one for the local ground, and then use the scope to show the difference
• use a proper isolated differential probe
• (not recommended!!) power the scope through an isolation transformer with a floating ground on the power output side

A proper isolated differential probe will set you back a minimum of a couple of hundred dollars.  And if you need high bandwidth and isolation, it'll cost you quite a lot more than that, particularly if you need to see relatively small signals.

Anyway, if differential probing were as commonly needed as you might think, then differential probes would probably cost a lot less than they do.  Most people are obviously able to do without.

[nctnico]

Nowadays you can buy decent differential HV probes for less than $200 (the ones from Micsig for example) and sometimes good deals come along as well.

[kcbrown]

Nowadays you can buy decent differential HV probes for less than $200 (the ones from Micsig for example) and sometimes good deals come along as well.

This is true, but all of the inexpensive ones compromise on something.  For instance, the Micsig has a bandwidth of 100 MHz, which is pretty decent, but has a minimum of 50X signal reduction, so it's not going to be the greatest thing for looking at small signals.

Getting good bandwidth and 10X signal reduction is going to cost you, near as I can tell.  Examples to the contrary would be welcome.