New DSO for work - any opinions welcome

[Helix70]

Hi Guys,

I am going to be making a short list of DSO/MSOs for purchase at work. Basically I am comparing 4 channel 200Mhz models, and require serial and SPI triggering and decoding. Built in wavegen is a plus. MSO is a plus. Deep memory is a requirement.

Current Keysight have specials on the 2000, 3000, 3000T and 4000 series for all feature unlocks, and I must say, they look great, especially that 12 inch screen on the 4000, but might not fit on my desk! I also think the 3000T looks pretty darn awesome. Is it worth it? Will a 2000 do?

I have had a quick look around and have seen a little about the Tek, and saw Dave's review of the R&S. I am looking for a professional tool (or two), and figure I can budget for up to about AUD10K if I can make the business case, but anything I save on the scope, can probably go into a power supply or two. Anyone got any suggestions or advice?

[forrestc]

Hi Guys,

I am going to be making a short list of DSO/MSOs for purchase at work. Basically I am comparing 4 channel 200Mhz models, and require serial and SPI triggering and decoding. Built in wavegen is a plus. MSO is a plus. Deep memory is a requirement.

Current Keysight have specials on the 2000, 3000, 3000T and 4000 series for all feature unlocks, and I must say, they look great, especially that 12 inch screen on the 4000, but might not fit on my desk! I also think the 3000T looks pretty darn awesome. Is it worth it? Will a 2000 do?

I have had a quick look around and have seen a little about the Tek, and saw Dave's review of the R&S. I am looking for a professional tool (or two), and figure I can budget for up to about AUD10K if I can make the business case, but anything I save on the scope, can probably go into a power supply or two. Anyone got any suggestions or advice?

I have a Tek MDO3024 and I love it.  It's taken me a bit of time to get used to the deep memory (I'm used to having what's on the screen, and that's it - the idea that there's a lot more resolution available just seems, well odd.).

It does SPI decode really well.  Helped me solve a SPI communication with a SD card problem just last week.   I also use it regularly for Serial decode (9 bit multidrop bus).   

I'm starting to deal with more and more EMI/RFI issues so the inbuilt spectrum analyzer is really nice to have, especially since I got the 3Ghz option for free.   I also have the MSO option but haven't needed more than 4 channels yet, so I can't vouch for it's ability. 

A couple of things everyone seems to say:

1) MSO/decode in the scope makes no sense.   I used to be of this camp, but after using a live decode in the tek to fix that SPI card problem, I'm now a convert to inbuilt logic analysis.   It removes the whole 'capture', 'pause', 'decode' issue - it's now all immediate and on the tek screen.      I still think that a USB/PCB based logic analyzer could be excellent, but the current 'capture, then decode' step for all of the Logic Analyzers I've tried are simply a pain.

2) signal generation in the scope makes no sense.   Ok, I kinda both agree and disagree.   If I'm needing to generate a consistent waveform (say a 20Mhz square wave, etc.), I'd go for a standalone generator.   But, if you need capture and replay, being able to do this in the scope makes a lot of sense.

3) [some other brand] is better than Tek.   I might be inclined to agree with some values of [some other brand], but not most of them.   I'm seriously drooling over some of the high-end R&S scopes.   Keysight might be just as good, but the way I think seems to have a personality conflict with the UI on most if not all keysight scopes (in other words: they might be excellent, but for whatever reason I don't like them). 

[Helix70]

Depends on your needs. I'm happy with my 3104A, but I do not use any of its advanced features (it does not have many, though). I only use its segmented memory, 4M deep memory and high speed, while occasionally uses its mask limit.

Their 2000 series has slower capture rate (up to 50kwfms/s) but are considerately cheaper. They are direct competitor to Dave's new R&S one.

I never used an R&S, but I can bet the over engineering costs a lot which is not really needed.

For business use that wants no bugs, refrain from Siglent or Rigol, though they are pretty good for home use if you are willing to learn and avoid bugs for the cheaper price.

Refrain from Tek, as it is the sinking ship. They are still comparable with KEY and LeCroy at high ends, but at low ends, they do not compete well.

MSO does not make big sense if they add to significant price. A 100M 16ch USB LA can be as cheap as $100.

At the moment, you get the MSO for a DSO price for the Keysights. I agree that a LA can be more useful, but if they chuck it in, I won't argue. Out of interest, where do you believe the line between high and low end is with respect to the Tek range?

[Someone]

Talk with your local distributors/offices to get loan units from the ranges you are interested in. There is no substitute for putting them to use and getting a feel for their application to your work.

[nctnico]

I'd definitely get a Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 for evaluation when you have a budget like this.

[EEVblog]

Current Keysight have specials on the 2000, 3000, 3000T and 4000 series for all feature unlocks, and I must say, they look great, especially that 12 inch screen on the 4000, but might not fit on my desk! I also think the 3000T looks pretty darn awesome. Is it worth it? Will a 2000 do?

The 4000 screen is the exact same resolution as the 3000 and 2000, so no extra info or data is displayed.

I have had a quick look around and have seen a little about the Tek, and saw Dave's review of the R&S. I am looking for a professional tool (or two), and figure I can budget for up to about AUD10K if I can make the business case, but anything I save on the scope, can probably go into a power supply or two. Anyone got any suggestions or advice?

If you have a tool budget then yeah, don't blow your wad on just the scope.
For the Tek do you mean the MDO3000? The spectrum analyser is handy, but otherwise it's as slow a wet week. Not good as a daily use scope IMO. The Keysight (and others) are so much faster and user friendly.

[Helix70]

Yes, I was talking about the MDO3000 series. I will definitely try and get a sample unit for the units of interest. How do you find the Keysight 2000 vs 3000 vs 3000T vs 4000? 

[Howardlong]

Current Keysight have specials on the 2000, 3000, 3000T and 4000 series for all feature unlocks, and I must say, they look great, especially that 12 inch screen on the 4000, but might not fit on my desk! I also think the 3000T looks pretty darn awesome. Is it worth it? Will a 2000 do?

The 4000 screen is the exact same resolution as the 3000 and 2000, so no extra info or data is displayed.

I have had a quick look around and have seen a little about the Tek, and saw Dave's review of the R&S. I am looking for a professional tool (or two), and figure I can budget for up to about AUD10K if I can make the business case, but anything I save on the scope, can probably go into a power supply or two. Anyone got any suggestions or advice?

If you have a tool budget then yeah, don't blow your wad on just the scope.
For the Tek do you mean the MDO3000? The spectrum analyser is handy, but otherwise it's as slow a wet week. Not good as a daily use scope IMO. The Keysight (and others) are so much faster and user friendly.

X4000 is 800x600 12.1" vs x3000 800x480 8.5". I have a 7000 which is also 12.1", but has 1024x768 resolution and I find the display unnecessarily large for that resolution, 10" would be a sweet spot.

The MDO3000 is also 800x480, 9" and has a slightly wide aspect ratio (ie, pixels aren't quite square).

Difficult to know where to start with the MDO3000. Overall I like it but compared to using the x3000 it's like night and day. Little in the MDO3000 UI is obvious or consistent, and the screen gets far too cluttered with menus. The x3000 on the other hand is blindingly simple to use. The MDO3000 UI just seems sluggish in comparison to the x3000. Having said that the x3000 seems sluggish compared to a 7000.

I really like the probes with the MDO3000, they're lightweight, only 3.9pF loading, but they'll only work with new Tek scopes as compensation is done inside the scope for these probes. The Keysight probes are pretty mediocre in comparison.

The SA on the MDO3000 is a bit of a disappointment for me: unlike the MDO4000 you can't have the SA and scope operating at the same time, it's one or the other.

I'll just mention liberation options. The base MDO3014 can be completely liberated with all options and bandwidth to 500MHz. There exist slightly more limited options for the x2000 and x3000 and it's more fiddly on an ongoing basis: there are also board differences between 200 & 350MHz, and 500 & 1000MHz. There are no currently published fiddles for the x3000T or x4000, or the MDO4000 for that matter. For the MSO liberation, you'll need an LA cable, P6316 for the MDO3000 and there are a number of HP/Agilent/Keysight part numbers for the x2000 and x3000 which often show up on eBay.

[Wuerstchenhund]

I am going to be making a short list of DSO/MSOs for purchase at work. Basically I am comparing 4 channel 200Mhz models, and require serial and SPI triggering and decoding. Built in wavegen is a plus. MSO is a plus. Deep memory is a requirement.

Current Keysight have specials on the 2000, 3000, 3000T and 4000 series for all feature unlocks, and I must say, they look great, especially that 12 inch screen on the 4000, but might not fit on my desk! I also think the 3000T looks pretty darn awesome. Is it worth it? Will a 2000 do?

I have had a quick look around and have seen a little about the Tek, and saw Dave's review of the R&S. I am looking for a professional tool (or two), and figure I can budget for up to about AUD10K if I can make the business case, but anything I save on the scope, can probably go into a power supply or two. Anyone got any suggestions or advice?

AU$10k is around US$7k, right? Any reason you only considered Keysight, Tek and R&S and not LeCroy?

Keysight's DSOX2000A is a good low end scope but functionality-wise its very limited. The 3000 Series is good and the DSOX3kT is nice but you really pay over the odds for it. The DSOX4kA is essentially a DSOX3kT with a larger screen. All these scopes suffer from a small sample memory due to a limitation with Keysight's MegaZoom ASIC. The DSOX Series is pretty much designed around a high waveform update rate with everything else secondary. Basic stuff like VGA or network port are expensive options. We also had some excessive noise issues some of our DSOX4kA scopes. They are good scopes but especially the higher bandwidth models are excessively priced for what you get, and I really hope that Keysight will come out with a new design in the near future.

As to Tek, well, unless you really need a scope with a built-in spectrum analyzer with mediocre specs forget about Tek. They haven't produced anything really remarkable (with the exception of the 70kSX maybe) since the days of analog scopes, their scopes are slow (sometimes pathetically so), pretty expensive, plus in my experience their support has taken a nose dive as well (but then it's a Danaher company, so what do you expect?). You'd be pretty much paying for the name only, and those days from what I see most of their customers are either in the edu segment or legacy customers who buy Tek just because they always did or have not much other choice.

For R&S you'd be looking at the RTM2000 which is quite a step up from the low end Hameg R&S 'Value Instruments' stuff which itself is already quite good. The RTM2000 is very nice scope, although a bit pricey (as are the options) and the waveform update rate is a bit on the low side. But it has a nice XGA screen with a good UI, and it's very silent. R&S support is also very good.


Having said that, in that price range you should really have a look at the LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000 Series as well:

http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/wavesurfer-3000-datasheet.pdf

It's in a similar performance class as the Keysight DSOX3kT but offers much larger sample memory (10M vs 4M), a larger screen with higher resolution, 1Mpts FFT, a really great UI (MAUI), plus a wide range of other advantages including some functions that usually are only found in higher class scopes. And it costs a lot less than the Keysight. In addition, they have very good support (all scopes are fully supported for 7 years after end of production, and are repaired for many years after that; they still repair 9300 Series scopes which ended in '98 or so).

At the moment in that class the best bang for the buck is the WaveSurfer 3000. At the moment there's a promo which includes all options (except MSO), and they are pretty flexible re. price.

I'd also strongly recommend to not just buy by recommendations but to try and get some loaner/demo scopes instead. $7k is a lot of money, and you want to make sure that this investment goes toward a tool you can work with, and you can only see this if trying out the scope in your typical scenarios.

[nctnico]

Also be aware that in normal use cases the memory on a Keysight scope is divided by a factor 4 or more so a scope with 4Mpts has a useful depth of only 1Mpts.

[D3f1ant]

Yeah, highly recommended getting demo units in and having a play first. I just fell in love with 12" screen because I can have the scope further back on the desk and still see it clearly. It's just like having a bigger screen TV, it depends a bit on your viewing distance if the 12" screen is worthwhile for your workspace.

[Howardlong]

Yeah, highly recommended getting demo units in and having a play first. I just fell in love with 12" screen because I can have the scope further back on the desk and still see it clearly. It's just like having a bigger screen TV, it depends a bit on your viewing distance if the 12" screen is worthwhile for your workspace.

I have the 7000 sitting on top of the main monitor so it takes up no bench space: while it's fine there for viewing it's a bit of a reach for the controls. Here's a scopegasm for y'all:

[D3f1ant]

Nice to gear thats actually connected/used for a change

[uncle_bob]

Hi

What do you already have around the lab?

Is this just for you or will it be shared? What are the "other guys" familiar with?

Will this tie into an automation system? Is it already set up for a scope from a specific company?

If it will be calibrated (I'd bet it will), are the calibration costs the same for all the scopes?

Do you have custom probing requirements? (FET probes) Will they work with this scope?

If it's going to act as a logic analyzer, are your boards already laid out for test pod hookups?

Often it is the small details that swing the deal one way or the other.

Bob

[Helix70]

Hi

What do you already have around the lab?

Is this just for you or will it be shared? What are the "other guys" familiar with?

Will this tie into an automation system? Is it already set up for a scope from a specific company?

If it will be calibrated (I'd bet it will), are the calibration costs the same for all the scopes?

Do you have custom probing requirements? (FET probes) Will they work with this scope?

If it's going to act as a logic analyzer, are your boards already laid out for test pod hookups?

Often it is the small details that swing the deal one way or the other.

Bob

I have my personal DS1054Z that i want to take home, we also have a DS1052E, and a Tek TDS2024 (our "good" scope" - yes, yes, i know). Our bandwidth requirements are not high, and these will be R&D scopes, so no automation or production testing. Calibration will be as per manufacturer recommended, we usually prototype with all test points included and fitted, then delete or DNF for production.

If we purchase one high end scope, it will be common use, if we go for the 2000X series, I may be able to get a couple, but that is why I am calling for opinions, to see what the strong likes and dislikes are, and whether the diminishing returns are worth it in our environment, which is primarily embedded/digital domain and protection (power), but we do have power supplies, cap chargers, battery chargers, switchers, EMC immunity and emmisions compliance, oscillators, SR radios etc etc that sometimes throws a curve ball that needs debugging in the time domain.

This is why the UART and SPI decoding/triggering are a requirement, and the MSO option would get plenty of use. We don't have an arb sig gen at all, so that could also fill a hole.

Most of the time our needs are simple, but every so often, a problem presents itself where the more sophisticated machine would be invaluable, and if you don't have one, you won't know what you are missing. I work for a large multi national, so I don't think it unreasonable to demand a high quality and reasonably spec'd instrument (or two).

[Helix70]

I am going to be making a short list of DSO/MSOs for purchase at work. Basically I am comparing 4 channel 200Mhz models, and require serial and SPI triggering and decoding. Built in wavegen is a plus. MSO is a plus. Deep memory is a requirement.

Current Keysight have specials on the 2000, 3000, 3000T and 4000 series for all feature unlocks, and I must say, they look great, especially that 12 inch screen on the 4000, but might not fit on my desk! I also think the 3000T looks pretty darn awesome. Is it worth it? Will a 2000 do?

I have had a quick look around and have seen a little about the Tek, and saw Dave's review of the R&S. I am looking for a professional tool (or two), and figure I can budget for up to about AUD10K if I can make the business case, but anything I save on the scope, can probably go into a power supply or two. Anyone got any suggestions or advice?

AU$10k is around US$7k, right? Any reason you only considered Keysight, Tek and R&S and not LeCroy?

Keysight's DSOX2000A is a good low end scope but functionality-wise its very limited. The 3000 Series is good and the DSOX3kT is nice but you really pay over the odds for it. The DSOX4kA is essentially a DSOX3kT with a larger screen. All these scopes suffer from a small sample memory due to a limitation with Keysight's MegaZoom ASIC. The DSOX Series is pretty much designed around a high waveform update rate with everything else secondary. Basic stuff like VGA or network port are expensive options. We also had some excessive noise issues some of our DSOX4kA scopes. They are good scopes but especially the higher bandwidth models are excessively priced for what you get, and I really hope that Keysight will come out with a new design in the near future.

As to Tek, well, unless you really need a scope with a built-in spectrum analyzer with mediocre specs forget about Tek. They haven't produced anything really remarkable (with the exception of the 70kSX maybe) since the days of analog scopes, their scopes are slow (sometimes pathetically so), pretty expensive, plus in my experience their support has taken a nose dive as well (but then it's a Danaher company, so what do you expect?). You'd be pretty much paying for the name only, and those days from what I see most of their customers are either in the edu segment or legacy customers who buy Tek just because they always did or have not much other choice.

For R&S you'd be looking at the RTM2000 which is quite a step up from the low end Hameg R&S 'Value Instruments' stuff which itself is already quite good. The RTM2000 is very nice scope, although a bit pricey (as are the options) and the waveform update rate is a bit on the low side. But it has a nice XGA screen with a good UI, and it's very silent. R&S support is also very good.


Having said that, in that price range you should really have a look at the LeCroy WaveSurfer 3000 Series as well:

http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/pdf/wavesurfer-3000-datasheet.pdf

It's in a similar performance class as the Keysight DSOX3kT but offers much larger sample memory (10M vs 4M), a larger screen with higher resolution, 1Mpts FFT, a really great UI (MAUI), plus a wide range of other advantages including some functions that usually are only found in higher class scopes. And it costs a lot less than the Keysight. In addition, they have very good support (all scopes are fully supported for 7 years after end of production, and are repaired for many years after that; they still repair 9300 Series scopes which ended in '98 or so).

At the moment in that class the best bang for the buck is the WaveSurfer 3000. At the moment there's a promo which includes all options (except MSO), and they are pretty flexible re. price.

I'd also strongly recommend to not just buy by recommendations but to try and get some loaner/demo scopes instead. $7k is a lot of money, and you want to make sure that this investment goes toward a tool you can work with, and you can only see this if trying out the scope in your typical scenarios.

If I can locate the local rep, I will include the LeCroy in the list, for sure. The price is flexible, but I am sure I will get plenty of downward pressure (surprise surprise). I will need to make the business case.

[uncle_bob]

I have my personal DS1054Z that i want to take home, we also have a DS1052E, and a Tek TDS2024 (our "good" scope" - yes, yes, i know). Our bandwidth requirements are not high, and these will be R&D scopes, so no automation or production testing. Calibration will be as per manufacturer recommended, we usually prototype with all test points included and fitted, then delete or DNF for production.

If we purchase one high end scope, it will be common use, if we go for the 2000X series, I may be able to get a couple, but that is why I am calling for opinions, to see what the strong likes and dislikes are, and whether the diminishing returns are worth it in our environment, which is primarily embedded/digital domain and protection (power), but we do have power supplies, cap chargers, battery chargers, switchers, EMC immunity and emmisions compliance, oscillators, SR radios etc etc that sometimes throws a curve ball that needs debugging in the time domain.

This is why the UART and SPI decoding/triggering are a requirement, and the MSO option would get plenty of use. We don't have an arb sig gen at all, so that could also fill a hole.

Most of the time our needs are simple, but every so often, a problem presents itself where the more sophisticated machine would be invaluable, and if you don't have one, you won't know what you are missing. I work for a large multi national, so I don't think it unreasonable to demand a high quality and reasonably spec'd instrument (or two).

Hi

Ok, so let me propose an "alternate plan". Get even more of the 1054Z's (or similar) and give everybody a scope that will do basic serial, SPI and I2C decoding. I'd bet that covers 80% of the real needs *and* having one at each location saves significant time (thus dollars thus the business case). Having them all the same makes swap around during cal or repair easier. Get one or two or three of the 2000's with the money that is left over. I don't know exactly what all the numbers are. I really don't need to, they are your business not mine.

Yes, if the money is there and it gets a scope for everybody, get the 2000's and get one of something better.

Simply put - availability AND usability is far better than fancy features on a scope that only Bob knows how to run and only Bob ever has on the bench. I also would consider the value of automating your R&D benches ....let the gear work when you are out drinking beer.

Bob (the guy with the scope)

[Helix70]

This is a valid option, but I would be lying if I didn't admit that part of me wants to have the kit that I only see at trade shows or being torn down on youtube.

I do agree that having same/same is a valuable thing to have. So that begs the question, how many people here bought their scopes based on needs, and how many bought what they could afford, hoping the need would come and justify the purchase?

A different answer might be true when buying for work with their money, or buying for one self, with your own money!

[nctnico]

Though question. Sometimes I buy equipment (usually cheap/for repair) just to play with it and see how useful it is. If it doesn't work the way I want I sell it again.

[Muxr]

Yeah, highly recommended getting demo units in and having a play first. I just fell in love with 12" screen because I can have the scope further back on the desk and still see it clearly. It's just like having a bigger screen TV, it depends a bit on your viewing distance if the 12" screen is worthwhile for your workspace.

I have the 7000 sitting on top of the main monitor so it takes up no bench space: while it's fine there for viewing it's a bit of a reach for the controls. Here's a scopegasm for y'all:

Great picture! If you don't mind me asking, what do you use to stack the scopes on the left? I've been looking for solution to stack another scope but I don't have a shelf on my desk. Something like a monitor arm perhaps?

[EEVblog]

AU$10k is around US$7k, right? Any reason you only considered Keysight, Tek and R&S and not LeCroy?

Because we are waiting for you to recommend a LeCroy.

 

[Smokey]

Nice to gear thats actually connected/used for a change

Ha.. and they are all right side up

[Howardlong]

Great picture! If you don't mind me asking, what do you use to stack the scopes on the left? I've been looking for solution to stack another scope but I don't have a shelf on my desk. Something like a monitor arm perhaps?

Indeed, having a VESA mount is the best feature of the MDO3000! Here it is in my setup with a quick release on an articulated gas spring monitor arm.

http://youtu.be/IbPh7-DGkC8?t=50s

[AndyC_772]

I do agree that having same/same is a valuable thing to have. So that begs the question, how many people here bought their scopes based on needs, and how many bought what they could afford, hoping the need would come and justify the purchase?

It can be hard to hit a moving target.

When I started working for myself, I bought a relatively inexpensive 500 MHz scope (Tek TDS754D), because the projects on which I was working required bandwidth above all else, and 500M was as much as I could reasonably afford. It wasn't really enough, but nevertheless it would do for go/no go checking before doing further tests in the customer's lab.

After a while, I wanted to upgrade to a more modern scope... smaller, easier to transport, and without the constant worry that it was on its last legs and might die at just the wrong moment - so I bought an MSO-X3054A.

By that time, I didn't really need the bandwidth any more, though. That scope spent most of its life decoding serial lines and probing op-amps and power supplies.

More recently, I had the opportunity to upgrade to the MSO-X3104A at reasonable cost, right at the time when a new customer job threatened to require all the bandwidth I could possibly afford... so I did.

That scope now spends most of its life with the 20M bandwidth limiter switched on. 

[Muxr]

Great picture! If you don't mind me asking, what do you use to stack the scopes on the left? I've been looking for solution to stack another scope but I don't have a shelf on my desk. Something like a monitor arm perhaps?

Indeed, having a VESA mount is the best feature of the MDO3000! Here it is in my setup with a quick release on an articulated gas spring monitor arm.

http://youtu.be/IbPh7-DGkC8?t=50s

Wow that's brilliant. I just might drill the Rigol to do that.